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The picture of Lampeter (Which I have seen before) looks tohave been taken in the years that were about the time of  "just before" the Great War, maybe 1905 - 10.

 

IF it was about that time, there is a more that fair chance that my granddad was in or about the picture ;)

Edited by LBRJ
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Nice BFI film here showing the Lampeter Dali’s fair.

 

Horseboxes from 0:55, followed by lots of cattle wagons for the more lowly beasts from 1:02. Scenes of horses being loaded from 3:02.

 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-great-dalis-horse-fair-lampeter-may-1914-1914-online

 

I've just put this on my modelling list :)

 

osses.JPG.d5bdc687b9f7a57f77187137833769fc.JPG

 

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Had a look at how local Welsh newspapers of the period describe the Lampeter fair. 

 

The 1914 fair seen in the video was described by the Camarthen Reporter on May 8th of that year:

 

"The annual Dali's fair at Lampeter began on Wednesday, and was a great success from every point. For days previous to the fair scores of dealers had come to the town, including several from Germany, France, Belgium, and Holland, etc., and many horses were sold on Tuesday afternoon at good prices. Business was in full swing in the streets at six on Wednesday morning, and by midday hundreds of horses had been sold. The quality of the horses offered for sale this year was exceptionally good, and there was a brisk demand. There does not seem to be any decrease in the demand for horses, with the exception, perhaps, of the Cardiganshire cob. An attempt is being made to breed a heavier style of the cob which was so much in vogue in past years. There was a demand for heavy horses, which sold rapidly at from £45 to £55. Some excellent hunters were sold at prices varying from £75 to £100. Cobs were in moderate demand, and realised from £20 to £40. Dealers were chiefly on the look out for sturdy nimble horses, suitable for vans, etc."

 

GWR workings get a mention in the Welsh Gazette's May 10 description of the 1906 fair: 

 

"Several special trains were run on Tuesday from various parts, and these brought in large crowds of people. The railway arrangements for dealing with the large amount of extra traffic were excellent in every way. Mr. T. B. Grierson, the General Manager, and his able staff afforded every facility for getting the horses and cattle away expeditiously, and the thorough-ness with which they did their work may be gathered from the fact that the last cattle train left Lampeter shortly after four o'clock on Tuesday afternoon. Forty-two truck loads were sent a "way on Monday, and this number was nearly trebled on Tuesday."

 

Here's a link to more newspaper reports on the Lampeter fair: 

 

https://newspapers.library.wales/search?range[min]=1804&range[max]=1919&alt=()&page=1&refine=&query="dalis+fair"&sort=score&order=desc&rows=12

 

 

Edited by Mikkel
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An  interesting newspaper report from 1903 describes Tattersall's, an auction house in London that dealt with thoroughbreds said:

"The well-known oblong building with its glass-covered roof witnesses the sale of considerably over ten thousand horses annually. In the surrounding galleries every description of vehicle is standing for sale, governess cars, shooting wagons, landaus, victorias and coaches—a veritable carriage museum. As each potential purchaser of horse-flesh enters the yard, he dives into the office and provides himself with the broad-sheet sale catalogue, which is printed on almost similar lines to that issued by the firm on the occasion of the historic sale by them of the Prince of Wales’ horses at the Hyde Park “Corner” in 1786, a copy of which hangs in a frame in the office. "

The figure of 10,000 annually may be taken with a pinch of salt, as it later states that up to 200 lots could be sold in a day, although some lots might have comprised several horses or foals. Either way, that is a lot of horse-flesh to be brought into London and then taken home. And Tattersall's weren't the only yard - "such as Aldridge’s in Upper St. Martin’s Lane–which, incidentally, was founded thirteen years before Tattersall’s, in 1753–, the Royal City Horse and Carriage Repository (Barbican) and “Aldersgate in the City, and Ward’s Repository in Edgware Road”. "

image.png.834df170102f55faca112732077d34ed.png

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That film of Lampeter has lots of interesting vignettes for modellers.  Now I know where all those Coopercraft cattle wagons have gone!

image.png.8ec0635eab9ca913c27c643622c9a3af.png

I'm intrigued to know how far the intrepid gentlemen (there's another at the rear) rode shotgun on the roofs of the cattle trucks? And that's a nice old horse box with the external fodder bay.

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1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

And that's a nice old horse box with the external fodder bay.

 

Ah - that's like the one in the hounds photo I posted. What's the gen on these? The GWR horseboxes available in kit form are all far too modern as far as I'm concerned.

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The station is absolutely chock-a-block with cattle wagons. I suppose the loading from the passenger platform was necessary because of the high volume and limited facilities, so shouldn't be taken as typical. Has the rule to screen the side apertures with a wagon sheet been mentioned? Despite the horses looking out of the cattle wagon, they didn't like seeing out while in the mood. Looks like ten horses per van, standing sideways - presumably in the event of the wagon buffering up viciously, they keep each other standing. (Large cattle wagon, 18ft long inside, 21 in per horse.) Posh horses stood lengthways in a horsebox, with, I think, padded stall divisions, up to three to a box. (7'0" - 7'6" inside width, allow 6" for partitions, 26 in - 28 in per horse.)

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If you want to see the detail of a horse-box, there is one very well displayed at the Bucks Railway Centre at Qauinton Road - open, and against a platform, indoors. In fact, their wagon display is one of the best, although I have a feeling that a lot of less deeply-interested visitors miss it, because of where it is, in a big shed over at the back of the site.

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13 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Maybe, but the major horse breeding areas were Yorkshire and Durham, and Ireland, and Norfolk and Kent were hardly just down the road!

 

Of course it was. How do you think people travelled before railways. They walked. They used to walk geese and turkeys from Norfolk to the markets in London. Wearing little boots.

 

5mph walking pace with horses. You can travel 50 miles in a day.

 

Dick Turpin was reputed to have ridden to York in a matter of hours. Not actually him, but Swift Nick Nevison actually did it.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nevison

 

 

Jason

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8 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Had a look at how local Welsh newspapers of the period describe the Lampeter fair. 

 

The 1914 fair seen in the video was described by the Camarthen Reporter on May 8th of that year:

 

"The annual Dali's fair at Lampeter began on Wednesday, and was a great success from every point. For days previous to the fair scores of dealers had come to the town, including several from Germany, France, Belgium, and Holland, etc., and many horses were sold on Tuesday afternoon at good prices. Business was in full swing in the streets at six on Wednesday morning, and by midday hundreds of horses had been sold. The quality of the horses offered for sale this year was exceptionally good, and there was a brisk demand. There does not seem to be any decrease in the demand for horses, with the exception, perhaps, of the Cardiganshire cob. An attempt is being made to breed a heavier style of the cob which was so much in vogue in past years. There was a demand for heavy horses, which sold rapidly at from £45 to £55. Some excellent hunters were sold at prices varying from £75 to £100. Cobs were in moderate demand, and realised from £20 to £40. Dealers were chiefly on the look out for sturdy nimble horses, suitable for vans, etc."

 

GWR workings get a mention in the Welsh Gazette's May 10 description of the 1906 fair: 

 

"Several special trains were run on Tuesday from various parts, and these brought in large crowds of people. The railway arrangements for dealing with the large amount of extra traffic were excellent in every way. Mr. T. B. Grierson, the General Manager, and his able staff afforded every facility for getting the horses and cattle away expeditiously, and the thorough-ness with which they did their work may be gathered from the fact that the last cattle train left Lampeter shortly after four o'clock on Tuesday afternoon. Forty-two truck loads were sent a "way on Monday, and this number was nearly trebled on Tuesday."

 

Here's a link to more newspaper reports on the Lampeter fair: 

 

https://newspapers.library.wales/search?range[min]=1804&range[max]=1919&alt=()&page=1&refine=&query="dalis+fair"&sort=score&order=desc&rows=12

 

 

Given that average salaries were in the region of 45 pounds this is very strong money indeed.

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1 minute ago, doilum said:

Given that average salaries were in the region of 45 pounds this is very strong money indeed.

 

Relative to wages, on about the same level as a medium-to-large family car or light commercial vehicle - though you'd have to add on the cost of the vehicle too. I wonder how running costs compared?

 

Hunters definitely into the sports car range! Though your average coupe is not so good off-road...

 

About 160 truck-loads over the two days, at up to ten horses per truck, is up to 1,600 horses. 

 

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2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Of course it was. How do you think people travelled before railways. They walked. They used to walk geese and turkeys from Norfolk to the markets in London. Wearing little boots.

 

5mph walking pace with horses. You can travel 50 miles in a day.

 

Dick Turpin was reputed to have ridden to York in a matter of hours. Not actually him, but Swift Nick Nevison actually did it.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nevison

 

 

Jason

According to the legend, Bess dropped down dead! I think that 20 miles would be a good days travel if the horses were to be kept in saleable condition. Oddly enough, I live about a mile from Nevisons Leap.

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2 minutes ago, doilum said:

According to the legend, Bess dropped down dead! I think that 20 miles would be a good days travel if the horses were to be kept in saleable condition. Oddly enough, I live about a mile from Nevisons Leap.

 

Which is why, if you wanted to travel fast, you travelled post, changing the horses every ten to fifteen miles - an average speed of up to 10 mph could be maintained. "And what is fifty miles of good road? Little more than half a day's journey. Yes, I call it a very easy distance." - says Mr Darcy, with his £10,000 a year.

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49 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I wonder how running costs compared?

 

Very badly, which is why light motor cars and motor vans sold so well, once they were half-reliable, and half-affordable. Trams and taxis were big horse-employers, and owners of both invested in new technology as soon as they could, to reduce the high costs imposed by horses ......... even battery-electric, which was a truly flaky and expensive technology c1900, was cheaper than horses, and had a brief flurry of popularity among cab owners*, until petrol engines caught-up and undercut.

 

One problem is that horses have to be fed, even when they are having a day off.

 

*It had a brief flurry of near-complete failure when tried by tramway operators.

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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Some idiot once suggested that going back to horses would be cheaper (probably following an increase in the cost of petrol).

They obviously forgot the high running cost of a horse - fodder, stabling, grooming, and vet's bills (about £200 just for the visit IIRC) (not to mention clearing up the waste products and disposing of the remains - no glue factories today!)

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The waste product is very good for your roses - or your rhubarb.  Glue factories were an early example of recycling, and that's back in fashion again.  As they don't use diesel we don't have to import the oil so it helps the balance of payments.  But the usual argument for going back to horses is that traffic in central London was faster then than it is now.

 

As for running costs, they don't have number plates so the Congestion Charge cameras can't do you for non-payment, and whereabouts on the horse is a traffic warden supposed to stick a parking ticket? 

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25 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

As for running costs, they don't have number plates so the Congestion Charge cameras can't do you for non-payment, and whereabouts on the horse is a traffic warden supposed to stick a parking ticket? 

 

These are issues which it would be straightforward to address with microchipping.

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The Southern Region 1934 General Appendix devote three and a half pages to ACCEPTANCE AND CONVEYANCE OF HORSES BY PASSENGER TRAINS. The sections include:-

Acceptance of horses.

Examination of horse boxes etc.

Securing and loading animals.

Horses etc, travelling loose.

Consignment note and waybill.

Care to be exercised in shunting.

Examination of animals en route.

Injuries to animals.

Unloading.

Loading or unloading at passenger platforms.

Cleansing and disinfecting vehicles.

Washing and cleansing headstalls in horse boxes.

 

cheers

 

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

These are issues which it would be straightforward to address with microchipping.

Hi Stephen

 

Horses are microchipped and to be transported from one place to another have to have a horse passport.

 

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The waste product is very good for your roses - or your rhubarb.  Glue factories were an early example of recycling, and that's back in fashion again.  As they don't use diesel we don't have to import the oil so it helps the balance of payments.  But the usual argument for going back to horses is that traffic in central London was faster then than it is now.

 

As for running costs, they don't have number plates so the Congestion Charge cameras can't do you for non-payment, and whereabouts on the horse is a traffic warden supposed to stick a parking ticket? 

Hi Michael

 

You are more than welcome to come and collect our horses' waste. It is waiting to be collected by a local farmer who said last time he shifted our muck heap it was about 8 tons he loaded into the trailer.

 

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

One problem is that horses have to be fed, even when they are having a day off.

Hi Nearholmer,

 

Ours need constant feeding.

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2 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Horses are microchipped and to be transported from one place to another have to have a horse passport.

 

Not surprised, given my very slight acquaintance with dairy farming.

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2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Not surprised, given my very slight acquaintance with dairy farming.

Hi Stephen

 

The regulations regarding the movement of live stock are even more stricter. When I was running my dog walking business, one of my customers had a pair of pet goats and asked me if I could take them for a walk. Goats love to have a nose around somewhere new. She looked into it knowing that to take them off her land there were rules. Apparently each time they left her property she would have fill in paper work and there was a cost to it. Sadly the goats never had a walk.

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