Are searchlights extinct?

[LNERGE]

I suspect they were the last. I have a fair pile collected over the years. There are at least four Westinghouse four aspect heads in store. These are ex Broxbourne area. They can easily be converted into three aspect by removal of the top single aspect. 

 

At home I have a yellow/green MetV/GRS, red/yellow/green MetV/GRS and an LNER Westinghouse four aspect with three aspect splitting head ex Hackney 7 in use. The latter has cold proving of the auxiliary filament set up and in use. 

 

The down outer distant for Loughborough is another I have supplied. This is an SGE four aspect head capable of showing yellow,double yellow or green. This was ex Marks Tey 18 signal. I had a hand in supplying bits of Swithland Sidings up distant too. This is a MetV/HRS head. There is another MetV/GRS signal in use at a heritage line in Wales somewhere that I supplied.

 

My MetV/GRS three aspect even had an outing back to NR for a few years. It was ex Barking and was in use until the KX fault team came and removed it in the middle of the night. It became KX301 until it was replaced by an LED head. I was impressed at the efforts of the guys at NR in getting it back to me. 

 

I have done my best to ensure there are seachlight signals around for all to see.

[russ p]

8 hours ago, LNERGE said:

I suspect they were the last. I have a fair pile collected over the years. There are at least four Westinghouse four aspect heads in store. These are ex Broxbourne area. They can easily be converted into three aspect by removal of the top single aspect. 

 

At home I have a yellow/green MetV/GRS, red/yellow/green MetV/GRS and an LNER Westinghouse four aspect with three aspect splitting head ex Hackney 7 in use. The latter has cold proving of the auxiliary filament set up and in use. 

 

The down outer distant for Loughborough is another I have supplied. This is an SGE four aspect head capable of showing yellow,double yellow or green. This was ex Marks Tey 18 signal. I had a hand in supplying bits of Swithland Sidings up distant too. This is a MetV/HRS head. There is another MetV/GRS signal in use at a heritage line in Wales somewhere that I supplied.

 

My MetV/GRS three aspect even had an outing back to NR for a few years. It was ex Barking and was in use until the KX fault team came and removed it in the middle of the night. It became KX301 until it was replaced by an LED head. I was impressed at the efforts of the guys at NR in getting it back to me. 

 

I have done my best to ensure there are seachlight signals around for all to see.

 

Have you got any plans to use any at Dereham? 

[melmerby]

17 hours ago, iands said:

Not sure auto-dimming would work on LED type signals,

 

To dim LEDs you change the duty cycle of the PWM signal that drives them.

I assume the LED arrays are PWM driven as they can strobe with video, as do the marker lights on recent locos/rolling stock.

[andyman7]

13 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I was in charge of the changeover at Watford Junction on the first two nights.  I spent most of the last night shift riding up and down the whole line on a train checking that the signal sighting was OK, all AWS was functioning correctly and existing signals / associated trainstops had been taken out  prior to giving the go-ahead to sign in the new system ready for the Monday morning service to start.

 

IIRC all of the NLL was semaphore until various renewals in colour light form. I was responsilbe for taking down the last semaphores at Acton Wells Junction which were I think  the last on the line in March 1989. 

One thing I distinctly recall from the DC resignalling was the enormous loss of capacity north of Harrow. The 1933 signalling had been based on an intensive service of Bakerloo, Euston and Broad St trains every few minutes. By the late 80s the headway was every 20 minutes, and BR investment of the time included cost saving based round present need with no scope to allow for future growth. In their final years, a fair number of the old Searchlight signals had been removed, presumably because lengthening a section was more cost effective than trying to repair an obsolete signal. But after the resignalling, the section north of Hatch End became enormous - the down starter used to clear in under 2 minutes under the Searchlights but after the resignalling it was about 7 or 8 minutes before it cleared. That would never have sustained the peak timetable of even the early 1980s.

[Michael Hodgson]

Under the old rules applicable to many of the signals on the DC lines you didn't have to wait too long at a red signal before you could proceed on sight.

[LNERGE]

4 hours ago, russ p said:

 

Have you got any plans to use any at Dereham? 

Not in Dereham itself. The earlier mentioned signal is destined for Kimberley. The little yellow dodger to signal moves into the Ballast Pit. It is possible a couple more will fid use round there too. The Westinghouse four aspects will be offered for sale/barter to other railways in due course.

 

The last mechanical searlight in use on BR was located at Littlebury. I have this and it may well end up being used at Dereham.

Edited April 13, 2021 by LNERGE

[melmerby]

6 hours ago, andyman7 said:

after the resignalling, the section north of Hatch End became enormous - the down starter used to clear in under 2 minutes under the Searchlights but after the resignalling it was about 7 or 8 minutes before it cleared. That would never have sustained the peak timetable of even the early 1980s.

Presumably that has since changed as there are currently 5 signal berths between H&W and Bushey inclusive, compared to 7 on the AC lines.

[keefer]

What are the LEDs like for sighting, particularly in poor conditions? Just wondered, as they seem to just really on their brightness whereas in colour-light signals, wasn't the light beam focussed/aligned through a glass lens?

e.g. Is the light from the LEDs more diffuse during rain/fog etc.?

 

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by keefer

[4069]

20 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I was in charge of the changeover at Watford Junction on the first two nights.  I spent most of the last night shift riding up and down the whole line on a train checking that the signal sighting was OK, all AWS was functioning correctly and existing signals / associated trainstops had been taken out  prior to giving the go-ahead to sign in the new system ready for the Monday morning service to start.

 

IIRC all of the NLL was semaphore until various renewals in colour light form. I was responsilbe for taking down the last semaphores at Acton Wells Junction which were I think  the last on the line in March 1989. 

March 1990, surely, when the panel went in.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, keefer said:

What are the LEDs like for sighting, particularly in poor conditions? Just wondered, as they seem to just really on their brightness whereas in colour-light signals, wasn't the light beam focussed/aligned through a glass lens?

e.g. Is the light from the LEDs more diffuse during rain/fog etc.?

 

 

Each LED will have a beam angle depending on spec and I assume railway signal LEDs will be a narrow beam.

 

See here for some examples

Some seem to have lenses

Edited April 13, 2021 by melmerby

[russ p]

1 hour ago, keefer said:

What are the LEDs like for sighting, particularly in poor conditions? Just wondered, as they seem to just really on their brightness whereas in colour-light signals, wasn't the light beam focussed/aligned through a glass lens?

e.g. Is the light from the LEDs more diffuse during rain/fog etc.?

 

 

 

 

LED signals are awful in poor conditions they don't  seem to penetrate fog like a filament bulb and when you get near them they blind you and you loose your night vision 

I wouldn't want to live near one they are nearly as bright as streetlights 

[russ p]

21 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Each LED will have a beam angle depending on spec and I assume railway signal LEDs will be a narrow beam.

 

See here for some examples

Some seem to have lenses

 

I assume when using the semaphore light the spectacle should be changed to green from blue? There are some at Manea which shine blue as the light is white and not yellowish 

[TheSignalEngineer]

38 minutes ago, 4069 said:

March 1990, surely, when the panel went in.

Correct. March 1989 I spent most of my waking hours as a Tunnel Rat doing the headway improvements between Kentish Town and Farringdon.

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Correct. March 1989 I spent most of my waking hours as a Tunnel Rat doing the headway improvements between Kentish Town and Farringdon.

I could have done with a couple of searchlights in those tunnels but BR had banned them by then.

My assistant managed to get some tunnel signal units from LT stores and we modified them to take a small size spreadlight lens already available within BR. Due to the difficulties of billing I think I paid for them by giving some assistance on their job of extending the LT train radio system to cover the DC Lines from Kilburn High Road crossover to Harrow & Wealdstone turnback siding. Happy days when we were able to use a bit of initiative to make the job work. 

However did we manage without accountants and contract lawyers getting involved? 

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 hours ago, russ p said:

 

I assume when using the semaphore light the spectacle should be changed to green from blue? There are some at Manea which shine blue as the light is white and not yellowish 

There is a full set of lenses available for use with Unipart Dorman LED semaphore signal lamp units. They come in 11 various size and colour variations to fit all common arm types. 

[russ p]

17 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I could have done with a couple of searchlights in those tunnels but BR had banned them by then.

My assistant managed to get some tunnel signal units from LT stores and we modified them to take a small size spreadlight lens already available within BR. Due to the difficulties of billing I think I paid for them by giving some assistance on their job of extending the LT train radio system to cover the DC Lines from Kilburn High Road crossover to Harrow & Wealdstone turnback siding. Happy days when we were able to use a bit of initiative to make the job work. 

However did we manage without accountants and contract lawyers getting involved? 

 

Why did they ban them? I know there were issues with them momentarily energising the train stop grid when changing from yellow to green but would think this predated this by several years 

Or was it the brief flash of red when changing,  something you anticipated when working with them or at least proper drivers did . I was told about that on my traction trainee course 

[TheSignalEngineer]

7 minutes ago, russ p said:

Why did they ban them? I know there were issues with them momentarily energising the train stop grid when changing from yellow to green but would think this predated this by several years 

There was a ban on using them for new work unless it was unavoidable way back in the mists of time following a wrong side failure when one stuck off.

I remember that the old GRS heads used at the time of Watford and Nuneaton boxes in the 1960s became rather handy as they were about 2" narrower than the BR standard heads and would fit in some places where the newer ones would not. (Another one from the metaphorical T-shirt collection)

[LNERGE]

54 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

There was a ban on using them for new work unless it was unavoidable way back in the mists of time following a wrong side failure when one stuck off.

I remember that the old GRS heads used at the time of Watford and Nuneaton boxes in the 1960s became rather handy as they were about 2" narrower than the BR standard heads and would fit in some places where the newer ones would not. (Another one from the metaphorical T-shirt collection)

I don’t think any other style of head would have fitted in this location..

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 minutes ago, LNERGE said:

I don’t think any other style of head would have fitted in this location..

No problem in a standard 6-foot using an old Westinghouse signal with no backboards.

[uax6]

Richard's searchlight collection is lovely, and it is thanks to him that I have my WBSCo one in the garden... This week in the early morning fog she has been cutting a lovely beam through it, but sadly I haven't got a camera sensitive enough to capture it..

The good news is that my ground frame will soon be going in, which means that I can finally finish off the wiring for it, and get her showing something other than a red... 

 

Andy G

(I'd like to to give Richards HD7 a home one day.. hint....hint).

[LNERGE]

You’d have to have the concrete base and loc too lol. It would have to go as a complete set with all the special relays etc. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by LNERGE

[Mark Saunders]

In a similar way are there any electromechanical Banner Repeaters left or have they all been replaced by LED type?

[uax6]

1 hour ago, LNERGE said:

You’d have to have the concrete base and loc too lol. It would have to go as a complete set with all the special relays etc. 

I'll take the loc, but I'll cast my own base please.... I doubt I'll be able to wheelbarrow yours away.....

 

Must have a visit when we can resume...

 

Andy G

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 13/04/2021 at 09:47, andyman7 said:

By the late 80s the headway was every 20 minutes, and BR investment of the time included cost saving based round present need with no scope to allow for future growth. In their final years, a fair number of the old Searchlight signals had been removed, presumably because lengthening a section was more cost effective than trying to repair an obsolete signal. But after the resignalling, the section north of Hatch End became enormous - the down starter used to clear in under 2 minutes under the Searchlights but after the resignalling it was about 7 or 8 minutes before it cleared.

 

The resignalling has to be looked at in context with the period, not like the present fad for re-writing history based on presemt day norms. 

When the job was being planned BR was broke. We lost nearly 50% of our signalling renewal projects budget in two years even at a time when were were struggling to maintain the status quo. Network South East hadn't been invented.

Financial constraints were extreme. It was even questioned as to whether it was worth keeping the DC Lines north of Harrow at all. As it was the original specification required the system to support a 10 minute interval between Harrow and Watford plus the Croxley branch trains.

It took a lot of work with the Magic Pencil to get the figures to balance. It was not really a runner as a conventional relay interlocking but the first SSI at Leamington was under trial so the figures were re- worked on the basis of using that technology. It was just about viable if two interlockings were used but that was stretching the processor capacity to the absolute limit. Other considerations were that a job with two SSIs talking to each other had never been done before and SSI had not been used next to AC electrification let alone with AC and DC lines adjacent. Somehow the job was made to work and within what our masters were prepared to pay.

Two hours after the job was signed in Clapham happened and the signalling landscape was drastically changed. NSE was now in control of the area and passenger numbers were increasing. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by TheSignalEngineer
Typos

[PerthBox]

On 11/04/2021 at 23:53, russ p said:

With the recent ressignalling of Clacton,  were these the last searchlights on the network?  I know the miniature yellow subsidiary signal that controlled entrance to the depot was certainly the last of its kind hasn't even been in the  rule book for years 

Perth still has miniature yellows, though the only one currently in use is on P46 in the Up Dundee Loop for the route leading toward the Mineral Yard (McPherson’s Sidings)