New remote control "analogue" system

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just got an e-mail through from Hornby about this.

 

I think it looks like a real challenger to DCC, at least for some layouts where it can be factored into the track design.

[newbryford]

It is wireless control to a fixed train controller, with two track outputs.

You can only run one train per output. 

So not really a competitor to DCC on that front IMO.

 

Where I think it will score is the wireless connection to accessory control units.

Reducing the need for control panel to layout wiring.

 

I can see it being used on DCC powered layouts as a stand alone accessory control system via the app - away from the DCC handset just being used to control the trains.

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by newbryford

[Roger Sunderland]

Yes, I agree, not really a competitor to DCC, as essentially you’re still controlling the track not the individual loco, however as a way of controlling accessories- without all the wiring, bring it on.

[Hroth]

If you're used to poking/swiping things on a phone or tablet, I can see the attraction of the HM6000 DC controller for a small trainset that you don't want to bring the added "complications" of DCC to.  In addition, there is enhanced play value with the railway sounds that your phone or tablet will produce.  A pity the sounds don't come out of the controller, as that would be a bit closer to the action...

 

The Accessory controller controls 4 devices.  How does that compare pricewise with DCC accessory controllers?  I use DCC to control locos only, I've not got into using it for points/signals.

[The Johnster]

I'm intending to try this out on my BLT, Cwmdimbath, but will not be disposing of my trusty Gaugemaster transformer/controller.  The attaction from my pov is the cordless aspect of Bluetooth control, which means effectively the ability to use my phone as a hand held untethered controller; it remains to be seen how effective it is in the finer controllability of my locos, mostly Bachmann with a smattering of Hornby.  One imagines that the system is tailored to the requirments of Hornby motors rather than Bachmann, but I doubt there will be much difference; I'll either be happy with it or I won't.  I'm not planning to buy the accessory control box as I hand operate my points and the signals are Dapol working types with their switches and motors.

 

I suspect the sounds will not be used on Cwmdimbath, but we'll see; I was ambivalent about the firebox glow on the Bachmann 94xx but now rather like it!  It is a pity that the noises come from the phone, and it's silly little speaker, but I have a set of Bluetooth headphones that might circumvent this objection. 

 

I would not regard it as a serious competitor to DCC, though it may be a herald of a technology I think might render DCC obsolete in the near future, which I'll come back to (back to the future, geddit?).  It is an idea that has been proven over the last few years in the US I believe, and is the first significant advance in DC tech for several decades; I applaud Hornby for dipping their toes into it, when anyone who can afford DCC will go down that road; from a marketing pov the big spenders are not going to be interested in this,  I see the market as me, traditional modellers on lower incomes with relatively simple layouts in the electrical sense. 

 

For a large or complex layout with numerous locos, point and signal motors, turntable, and self detonating Dapol water tower(!), the number of accessory controllers and train controllers needed will probably negate any cost effectiveness over DCC.  From my point of view, it is higly cost effective if considered as a sort of 'half way' DCC solution, but the full DC track wiring is still required and locomotives cannot be isolated unless on wired isolating sections in the traditional way.  I have 14 locomotives in service, which would cost about £700 in total to convert to DCC, more if sound fx are considered, and the cost of the controller on top.  The HM6000 is £30 for 4 separate switchable circuits, and will discount to about £22.

 

Back to the future, Marty, my prediction is that Bluetooth or a similar NFC technology will be used for untethered smartphone app control of locomotives that have on board power supplies that are recharged at set locations in the same way as wireless phone charging works.  There will be no need to supply current at all to the track, and sound fx will be delivered via wireless headphones, with no need for speakers on board locomotives or stock.  Motors will be axle hung or direct drive on each axle, possibly including those on rolling stock, and of the lowest possible individual power consumption, leaving space for detail such as engine/equipment room detail on diesels and electrics and inside motion on steam locos, which will feature servo operation of reversing rods and valve gear settings.  Full underframe detail on multiple units can be provided along with correct level interior floors and brake van detail.  Plastic track will not need cleaning and can be used outdoors; there will be no pickups and thus no need to adjust or clean those either.  Wheels and axles can be plastic if that is of any advantage; grip between plastic wheels on plastic rails should be very good indeed.  All we have to do is to get up to 88mph...

Edited April 12, 2021 by The Johnster

[melmerby]

Johnster, you've already started a topic on this a while back

 

And here:

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by melmerby

[adb968008]

12 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

Back to the future, Marty, my prediction is that Bluetooth or a similar NFC technology will be used for untethered smartphone app control of locomotives that have on board power supplies that are recharged at set locations in the same way as wireless phone charging works.  There will be no need to supply current at all to the track, and sound fx will be delivered via wireless headphones, with no need for speakers on board locomotives or stock.  Motors will be hung or direct drive on each axle, possibly including those on rolling stock, and of the lowest possible individual power consumption, leaving space for detail such as engine/equipment room detail on diesels and electrics and inside motion on steam locos, which will feature servo operation of reversing rods and valve gear settings.  Full underframe detail on multiple units can be provided along with correct level interior floors and brake van detail.  Plastic track will not need cleaning and can be used outdoors; there will be no pickups and thus no need to adjust or clean those either.  Wheels and axles can be plastic if that is of any advantage; grip between plastic wheels on plastic rails should be very good indeed.

At last i’m not alone !

Preaching to the converted there !

Though even some parts I find a bit revolutionary extreme.. working reversing rods?

 

I do think plastic track will be forced on the hobby at some point.. we are in a generation who don't know how to open or close a train door and where unions go on strike at who pushes the lock/unlock button... so manually wired, soldered track to a DC feed fed from a mains will at some point attract scrutiny and I wouldnt be surprised if such wiring may some day be required to be certified.

 

[The Johnster]

22 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Johnster, you've already started a topic on this a while back

 

And here:

 

Guilty as charged, Kieth, but todays missive is a response to the idea of app-based analogue as an alternative to full fat DCC.  Incidentally I've cancelled my pre-order in the hope of discounting.

[RAF96]

The downfall is having to buy a 1-amp power wart for each module at £20 a pop. There needs to be a splitter cable similar to CCTV cameras so a 4-amp power brick can supply 4 modules.

 

Earlier it was said each HM6000 powers four tracks - it only powers two. It is the HM6010 accessory module that powers four devices. Another comment was ref cost versus DCC. This is basically an R8247 PAD acc decoder with added blue tooth. There is even an input to power it from a DCC track so it would read across to a DCC layout and cheaper than the equivalent PAD.

[Hroth]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Guilty as charged, Kieth, but todays missive is a response to the idea of app-based analogue as an alternative to full fat DCC.  Incidentally I've cancelled my pre-order in the hope of discounting.

 

Some retailers are offering HM6000 units for £23 already, which is a bit of a knock on the Hornby price.  Also 15v/1A power adaptors can be had at half the Hornby price.

 

The only concern I have is about how good the app is, and if Hornby doesn't keep it updated, how long it'll be before it won't work with future versions of Android, etc?

 

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

........ we are in a generation who don't know how to open or close a train door ...........

Damned trains round here have a big notice on the door saying it's automatic .............. wait long enough for it to automate an' some helpful soul will point out that you actually need to press a button ( just as the train moves off ) !

[jpendle]

17 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Why not just buy yourself a wireless DCC controller, they are around and a much better idea. I have been looking around for one for a while but I was waiting until I can go to a model railway exhibition to look at one in use. I think there are a couple that use an app on your mobile phone.I must admit I wish someone would come up with a CAN system to control accessories, much better protocol and is a bidirectional communication system.

Roco's Z21 system uses CAN on their Railcom feedback box, and they also make a CAN hub. I suspect more CAN control stuff will be coming from them in the future.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Redvers B]

As the cost of converting my loco's to DCC makes me break into a sweat, I've pre-ordered the HM 6000. I like the idea of being able to roam, listen to the admittedly limited sounds (though will probably play through a bluetooth speaker though rather than my phone or a tablet) and with the added bonus of a track planner. However, after downloading the app today and testing the track planner which immediately froze, I'm not sure I've made the right decision. I just hope any bugs in the app will be ironed out quickly.

[Hroth]

3 minutes ago, Redvers B said:

As the cost of converting my loco's to DCC makes me break into a sweat, I've pre-ordered the HM 6000. I like the idea of being able to roam, listen to the admittedly limited sounds (though will probably play through a bluetooth speaker though rather than my phone or a tablet) and with the added bonus of a track planner. However, after downloading the app today and testing the track planner which immediately froze, I'm not sure I've made the right decision. I just hope any bugs in the app will be ironed out quickly.

 

I bet that for it to work, its got to be able to talk to one of the base stations...

 

[Steamport Southport]

I only popped in because I was curious about the thread title...

 

 

 

[rdr]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Back to the future, Marty, my prediction is that Bluetooth or a similar NFC technology will be used for untethered smartphone app control of locomotives that have on board power supplies that are recharged at set locations in the same way as wireless phone charging works.  There will be no need to supply current at all to the track, and sound fx will be delivered via wireless headphones, with no need for speakers on board locomotives or stock.  Motors will be axle hung or direct drive on each axle, possibly including those on rolling stock, and of the lowest possible individual power consumption, leaving space for detail such as engine/equipment room detail on diesels and electrics and inside motion on steam locos, which will feature servo operation of reversing rods and valve gear settings.  Full underframe detail on multiple units can be provided along with correct level interior floors and brake van detail.  Plastic track will not need cleaning and can be used outdoors; there will be no pickups and thus no need to adjust or clean those either.  Wheels and axles can be plastic if that is of any advantage; grip between plastic wheels on plastic rails should be very good indeed.  All we have to do is to get up to 88mph...

Don't let the cat out of the bag, everyone will want it.

[rdr]

3 hours ago, jpendle said:

Roco's Z21 system uses CAN on their Railcom feedback box, and they also make a CAN hub. I suspect more CAN control stuff will be coming from them in the future.

 

Regards,

 

John P

and as a bonus you can fix your car for free.

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Why not just buy yourself a wireless DCC controller, they are around and a much better idea. I have been looking around for one for a while but I was waiting until I can go to a model railway exhibition to look at one in use. I think there are a couple that use an app on your mobile phone.I must admit I wish someone would come up with a CAN system to control accessories, much better protocol and is a bidirectional communication system.

No doubt about it, DCC is a good idea, and superior to DC in every respect.  And clearly wireless untethered DCC is better still.  But, for me, the cost is prohibitive; as I pointed out, chipping my relatively small loco stud would cost about £700 which I don't have, and to go the whole hog and use DCC to control points, signals, speakers, and all the bells and whistles (and if you've made the switch to DCC it's daft not to), I'd probably be looking at double that.  I am a pensioner who never recovered financially from a disastrous divorce 35 years ago, so have to cut my cloth according to the width; DCC, however wonderful it is, is not for me.  I don't know what CAN is.

 

I have to make the best of things in DC, and while I cannot manage the £1,400 to convert to DCC, I can manage a HM6000 discounted to £23, and believe it will be worth the (relatively minor) investment.  No alteration to my existing wiring will be needed, all I need to do is attach the HM6000 to a suitable transformer at one end and the track at the other.  It is cheaper than a HH Gaugemaster controller and that is tethered.  On a BLT I need to move freely from one end of the layout to the other, and have an office chair on castors that I can propel up and down the layout easily enough; an untethered control will enhance this.  I may indulge in an accessory control box at a later date, but this is a decision that can be deferred. 

 

I will have no use for the layout planning part of the app, but as I say may find the sound fx useful, using NFC headphones.  But I doubt it; I’m expecting crude white noise bursts not synced with wheel revolutions and sounding the same for a 57xx as for a 42xx, and I’ll be lucky if the whistles sound anything like GW.  If they do, they’ll be wrong for other railways.  I’ll be delighted to be proved wrong, but I reckon this is an area where full fat DCC wins hands down, and I’ve heard some pretty dire steam loco noises from DCC (diesel sound fx are much better).
 

Not a deal breaker (so long as I can turn it off) as the untethered aspect of this is the main draw for me!

Edited April 13, 2021 by The Johnster

[GWR-fan]

In my opinion the downfall of the system is actually the mobile phone.  At seventy years of age I have only just purchased my first mobile (with much gnashing and gritting of teeth),  while I have attempted in the past to use them but my fingers seem to always select a minimum of two characters when attempting to text message so any fine control for me is out.   I have used numerous analogue and digital wireless systems in largescale outdoor railways and yet even with the choice of quality DCC sound and control I seem to always gravitate back to tethered analogue control.  I may be interested in the Hornby system if there was a control other than a phone app.  Remember how Bachmann were going to make DCC obsolete with their bluetooth control.  What happened there?  Like Hornby Zero One,  E-link and live steam,  I really cannot see much happening here.  There will be an initial positive response but then waining interest will see the protocol not being updated by the company.

[No Decorum]

I have been through a lot of mobile phones as the technology has developed. My present one is a nifty device and I don’t leave home without it. Most of my communications are by text – as I once explained, I don’t want people ringing me whilst I’m holding two bits together whilst the glue sets. Nevertheless, I regard touch screens as a device of the devil characterised by a video of someone showing off his hugely expensive Austrian controller and poking the thing three times before it responded. As for the car, I need a navigator to prevent me driving into a hedge. Nevertheless, they have their uses, I suppose and must be tolerated. DCC is wonderful and DCC sound is even more wonderful. Sound projects have improved over the years, although some are better than others. Thinking of steam TTS, some are much better than others.

 

Nevertheless, the ideal DCC controller has yet to be developed. A few functions are fairly standard but most are not. Indeed, some cannot be as they vary by prototype. What is needed is something like Hornby or Bachmann’s computer control but in a hand-held device but with added features. A nice little plastic lattice separating tactile buttons which should be miniature screens with programmable icons which change automatically to suit the model selected. All packed into something which can be held in one hand, with the main controls operable in one hand – the NCE is a good starting point.

[Legend]

I'm a luddite . Where do you put the key ?

 

I looked at this last year when it was initially announced and there was a spiel about it in the catalogue .  Initially it  looked quite interesting  and indeed even cost effective . I have quite a large loft layout with 4 circuits , all analogue  and I thought this might be a way of doing remote shunting . I have an old H&M Clipper and a Hornby R910 both dating from around 1975 that could do with an upgrade (my other controller is a Gaugemaster DS)

 

Then I had a reality check . I actually like the controllability of turning the knob and the train goes . I kind of work in an electronic environment , computers , understanding various software systems etc etc during the day . Most of my entertainment these days comes through iPad where I'm staring at a screen for an increasing amount of time  so actually the last thing I need is another bit of electronic gadgetry . That's partly the reason I've never gone DCC. Discussions on CVs etc just turn me off . I also have a large collection of locos , some going as far back as 1965 and yes I do run them . Cost of DCC would be prohibitive and not easy to install.  HM6000 might have been a way round this but common sense prevailed and instead I'm looking at a Morley Controller as possible replacement I think its called a Vector 3. One of the plusses is it has hand sets so I can still be partially remote.

 

The HM6000 is not a replacement for DCC

 

However it could be a good initial system for folks coming into model railways , sort of the Trainset + market . Ideal Hornby territory . It avoids the cost and complexity of DCC, yet adds an element of electronic gadgetry  and functionality that will appeal to the new generation (not me!). I can imagine there will be delight from operating your train from phone . Sounds and even track planning from a relatively cheap system .   It does depend on Hornby maintaining it with upgrades to the App etc  and I don't think they have a great record on this . Interest seems to wane on new systems in 3rd or 4th year . So I do wonder about how sustainable this will be . 

 

But overall I think theres a place for it . Seems a good bit of innovation that will be of interest to the younger set , but not die hard DCCers or Luddites like me. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Legend

[ruggedpeak]

12 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Damned trains round here have a big notice on the door saying it's automatic .............. wait long enough for it to automate an' some helpful soul will point out that you actually need to press a button ( just as the train moves off ) !

Automatic $%^&*(ing doors??? Don't get me started. The 378's on the North London Line have doors that close automatically. In winter, with wide high capacity doors the trains are bloody freezing sitting for 10+mins at Stratford waiting for them to leave as the doors remain open for several minutes before auto-closing. And the second they close someone opens them to get on. One of the reasons I stopped commuting pre-COVID. Almost as stupid as the indicators on newer Audi's.......

 

Back to the Hornby bluetooth. Looks ideal for my micro layout especially if I replace the tube and wire with point motors. I have far too many locos and conveting to DCC is just too expensive, so a couple of modules plus power supplies is a bargain for wireless control. Like Johnster I think there is a place for this. The other issue for me is that whilst I have a lage number of locos there is little point in going DCC now as by the time I get to a life stage where I can have a large layout the DCC chips etc I buy now will be well out of date. So again this seems a good compromise.

[Hroth]

27 minutes ago, Legend said:

However it could be a good initial system for folks coming into model railways , sort of the Trainset + market . Ideal Hornby territory . It avoids the cost and complexity of DCC, yet adds an element of electronic gadgetry  and functionality that will appeal to the new generation (not me!).

 

Understood by Hornby already.  The R1271M iTraveller 6000 trainset to be introduced next month (£130 or less) incorporates the HM controller, and its PSU, together with the usual extended starter oval and siding, a Class 06 in a dodgy livery, a set of equally improbable wagons, rerailer and trackmat.

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Hroth
Link to the horror...

[Wickham Green too]

31 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

.... The 378's on the North London Line have doors that close automatically. In winter, with wide high capacity doors the trains are bloody freezing sitting for 10+mins at Stratford waiting for them to leave as the doors remain open for several minutes before auto-closing. And the second they close someone opens them to get on. ......

Yep - we've got 376s, just the same ( at least the seats face the right way ) ............. gimme a nice toasty "slam-door" compartment any day !

[rdr]

A little story about the old presented by the young (well i was then).

Many moons ago i built a radio controlled "OO" lima western, with it's own battery onboard and 27mhz radio control. It was a magical thing to watch running, incredibly smooth and would start from a minute crawl to a supersonic overspeed if required. There were no problems with trackwork at all as there were no pickups to worry about and no dirty track to care about.

So off i went with my creation to show it off to my local model club, with all the youthful excitement i could muster. All went well, my western performed beautifully tackling the complicated pointwork of the station approach with ease and the batteries lasting for ever.

Sadly the club in their wisdom decided that the cost of changing over to a new system would weigh too heavily on the members pockets as the stock was spread across quite a few owners. With hindsight their concerns were flawed as they eventually all moved over to DCC, but the western still survived to be a shining example of the future that never was.