German semaphore signals, mechanism ?

[Porkscratching]

I'm wondering how the old style German "lollypop" type signals were operated, in the sense of how to represent this "on the ground"

I haven't been able to find any pics showing whatever rods, wires, pulleys (or elec. cables ) etc would be present and how they were conveyed from signal box to the signal itself

[Grovenor]

They generally used double wire working for both signals and points, ie there were two wires for each arm or point run out from the cabin. The two wires were kept under tension and for any other than very short runs there were tensioning weights along the route which were quite prominent at the lineside. The lever frames for double wire were of the turnover type where the lever moved through 180 degrees. A bit of googling should find images of all this stuff.

eg https://janfordsworld.blogspot.com/2015/10/double-wire-working-of-points-and.html

Edited April 12, 2021 by Grovenor

[Porkscratching]

That's brilliant, many thanks, I wasn't having much luck on t'internet myself !

[Michael Hodgson]

Much of Europe used  turnover levers, illustrated here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever_frame#/media/File:Mechanisches_Stellwerk_in_Hausen_im_Tal_(2018).jpg

 

Traditional signalling practice in general was very different from ours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_signals_in_Germany

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellwerk

 

There is a lot more on the web in German and obviously it helps if you have the language, but the translation software works a lot better than it used to - though technical terms can be problematic.

 

 

 

 

[readingtype]

The MIBA guide by Stefan Carstens (German language) is very good: https://www.vgbahn.shop/mechanische-stellwerke-1

 

The pictures and diagrams tell you much of the story. I have a copy of the 'digital' edition in PDF but have not tried pasting the text into Google -- might work

 

For information in English I'd like to plug the German Railway Society's series of signalling guides, but this aspect is not covered. The usage of signals and the terminology related to track layout and signals is very well covered though, so there's the plug. Anyone who is interested in a guide in English could leave a comment here... I cannot and will not make promises of any kind but the level of interest would be good to know. Disclosure: at time of writing I'm a member of the GRS.

 

Ben

Edited April 12, 2021 by readingtype
clarification

[readingtype]

3 hours ago, Grovenor said:

They generally used ...

 

There are lots of mechanical signalling installations still operating in Germany, if you can get there :-) Often the signals are now operated by motors rather than cables.

[5944]

A couple of photos from a few years ago with semaphores. You can see the size of the counterweights in the second one. They're pretty hefty! I was stood on the steps of the signalbox, so at least the signaller didn't have to pull them too much. 

[Porkscratching]

There's some good and interesting stuff there to study gents, many thanks..

From the modelling perspective, I'm looking for some images, as yet elusive, showing how the wire system connects at the base of the signal, so i can have some viable looking 'hardware' running along the track and 'working' the signal.

This is purely cosmetic as it doesn't have to actually operate the signal which would be fixed / static.

[5944]

 

 

My second photo was at the south end of Immelborn station. This photo by Gordon Edgar is at the North end. A proper signal box rather than just a small cabin like the South end! Looks easy enough to model - the wires go underneath a plate in front of the box. 

[Porkscratching]

Good stuff !

It appears too that the wires just run straight into the signal itself, thru the pulley bearing brackets, as per Grovenor's diagram.

I'm awaiting the signal kit to see what's there...hopefully two nice pulleys ready for the wires !

[Porkscratching]

Looks like the wires run into a box at the base of the signal, presumably inside are cranks or pulleys that work the rods or wires going up to the signal....

 

[Grovenor]

1 hour ago, 5944 said:

A couple of photos from a few years ago with semaphores. You can see the size of the counterweights in the second one. They're pretty hefty! I was stood on the steps of the signalbox, so at least the signaller didn't have to pull them too much. 

The double wire compensator on the left of this picture is a vital lineside feature, you really need to find a side on view. Note that the weights are there to keep the wires tight regardless of temperature, they don't have to be lifted by the signalman*, the signals are a much lighter pull, 25% or less, than a single wire UK style signal.

*The two weights are linked so that as soon as the tension in the two wires becomes unequal at the start of a pull the weights are locked up until the movement is complete and the tension becomes equal again.

[Porkscratching]

I found an Aussie version on the same principle, they're hefty weights certainly..

 

[johnofwessex]

The Midland also had some 'Barrel' frames with two wires rather than single wires/point rods

[Ian Morgan]

Hope these help:

 

Levers

 

 

Tensioner (pity about the pipe in the way)

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Ian Morgan
re-loaded images

[readingtype]

Not the most inspiring photos, but these show the remains of the mechanism that converts the cable pull into a lever movement and some of the gubbins at the top of the mast. As shown above it's a cable drum with a cam follower inside it that moves a vertical rod to operate the Signalflügel (arm)

 

This is a Schmalmast (narrow mast) rather than a Gittermast (lattice mast) but I don't think the different mast construction had much impact on the mechanism. The signal mast was lying beside the headshunt at Bahnhof Rennsteig in January 2018.

 

1. The remains of the casing covering the cam follower mechanism. This is the foot of the mast and the bolts through the holes on the L shaped angle held it down onto a concrete plinth.

 

 

2. Inside the casing showing cable still wrapped around the drum

 

 

3. Top of the mast showing the arm pivot and the Laterneblende (spectacle plate), with the foot of a second one beside it

 

 

[Porkscratching]

On the contrary, those are most interesting !... gives an idea as to what's going on inside the box, much appreciated.

[Porkscratching]

The kit I have for one of these is the Miniart version..looks very detailed and a good representation of the real thing..

l will probably use wire rod rather than the thin plastic rods that come with the kit ( which would likely break when removing from the kit sprues anyway)

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Porkscratching