Red Wagons

[richbrummitt]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Never discount coloured postcards!

It would damage any margins. 

[Compound2632]

You've seen this little shocker, of course?

 

[Edwardian]

42 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

You've seen this little shocker, of course?

 

 

Yes and I am familiar with the photograph on which it is based.

 

It's one of the long bonnets, so 1899 and on.   

 

If you believe that c.1898 is the date to grey, it's outshopped in grey.  If you believe 1904 is the date, it's outshopped in red.

 

The photograph is not, as I recall, dated, and the 25'' letters were applied from 1904-1921. 

 

The simplest explanation, to my mind, is that it is grey, either because it started out that way and gained initials, or because it's had its first repaint since it entered service.

 

The patch issue, to which, I confess, I had not paid attention, seems to knock the idea of a repaint on the head, however.  I think Mikkel is correct that it suggests the wagon is still in the colour first painted, whichever that was. The patch evidence is, in my view, the only support for the idea it is in red, and, then, only if you assume the 1904 date for grey.

 

The patch, I assume, is where the 'G W R' cast plate was, so, logically would have been removed when the 25'' initials were applied. 

 

However, while Mikkel's conclusion derives from a specific set of assumptions, it could equally be the case that the wagon was liveried grey from new but that the removal of the GWR plate in 1904 exposed an unfaded portion of the grey.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Edwardian
Clarity

[Compound2632]

We can continue to go in circles for some time...

 

... the best course of action is to put theory into practice on one's models.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

We can continue to go in circles for some time...

 

... the best course of action is to put theory into practice on one's models.

 

Indeed.  If I take the 25'' lettered mink to be red, I am asked to make an additional assumption.  Not only must I assume that 1904 is the change to grey, but that the GW was in such a hurry to adopt the new initials that it did so ahead of repainting a wagon.

 

That is quite possible, of course.

 

On the other hand, if I am open to wagons built c.1898 onward (this one was built in 1900, I've now checked the photo) being painted grey from new, all I have to accept is that the GW 'transitional livery' as applied to cast plate wagons was simply to remove the GW plate and whack of the 25'' numerals on in order to achieve 1904 livery, as the cast plate period wagons were already grey.

 

The latter is the explanation I prefer.  It seems less of a stretch, though it involves rowing back from the compromise position I suggested earlier. I might well attempt the same wagon based on the same photograph as Mikkel's, but in grey! 

[Dave John]

Devils advocate. 

 

If the GWR painted the whole lot red as an exercise in livery simplification why would the wheels and buffers be black ? 

[Mikkel]

9 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Never discount coloured postcards!

 

Now you've asked for it, a few here to mess with your mind 

 

Caption: "Drinnick Railway Sidings, Nanpean, 1900s"

 

 

Caption: "Penzance 1909". Red Cordon! 

 

A theory: Colourisers had (i) a limited range of colours to play with, and also (ii) needed to consider that the cards were attractive. At the same time there had to be (iii) a degree of realism, since part of the wonder of a postcard was that it depicted real scenes in colour. So they drew on (iv) the popular notion of company colours ("Those lovely green GWR engines" and possibly (v) their own memories and experience. The result of all these factors (and others?) was an intriguing  hybrid of fiction and fact.

 

Sometimes, the result was bizarre of course, as with these yellow and green wagons 

 

 

[Edwardian]

7 hours ago, Dave John said:

Devils advocate. 

 

If the GWR painted the whole lot red as an exercise in livery simplification why would the wheels and buffers be black ? 

 

Quoting from the blog below:

 

Another revelation (for me) from the early 'Broadsheet' No.6 (1981) is that an early painting specification for an Iron Goods Break Van of 1852 states that:

 

"The whole of the van including the wheels, axles, axleboxes, side springs and every part [my italics] .... brown colour and figures as might be directed,"  The scheme for other wagons is stated to be similar.

 

[Edwardian]

Pictures:

 

Below the ballast wagon which I understand is the basis for the comment on gwr.org that:

 

It is known that the GWR did start painting metal solebars on some wagons in black after 1888, to match the black of the running gear, but it is not known whether or when the black became generally applicable to metal solebar.

 

However, the body work is not how I would expect newly applied red paint to show up in an 1888 photograph. Is this wagon red? As it is a departmental wagon and not necessarily in red in any case, how good a guide to the painting of revenue earning red goods stock is it?

 

 

Trying to spot a difference between black running gear and/or solebars and red bodies (event where you are sure it's a red not an all-over grey wagon), can be difficult to impossible.  Are the wagons below all-over red, or red with black?  if the latter, which bits are black?

 

Note the iron mink rooves are apparently white.

 

 

 

 

The picture above neatly sums up the modeller's dilemma.  If you believe that red was applied to new-builds until the adoption of 25" initials in 1904, both wagons are red.  You then have to decide if the red extends to and/or below, the solebar. If you believe that c.1898 is more likely for the transition to grey, the wagon on the right is grey.  If we assume grey = all-over grey, the right hand vehicle is a single colour and the red one to the left may, or may not, be a single colour. 

 

When contrasting the shade of the two wagons and the degree of fade, bear in mind the left hand wagon is 6 years old and the right hand just one year old.

 

 

 

 

 

What about this one below?

 

It's a cast plate wagon, but from the first outing of cast plates. It's dated 1894 and should, based on what little we know, be red. 

 

As an ex-works picture, as the caption suggests, to demonstrate the cast plate innovation, it is possible that it has received a non-standard paint job.  I say this because there is, it seems to me, to be a contrast in the shade of all the metal in contrast to the wood.  This might merely reflect how the same paint appears differently on different materials, but, equally, might we be seeing black ironwork on red, including body strapping and corner plates etc? 

 

 

If we are seeing black iron work on the body, I'd venture the assumption that it would be a special job and, in any event, be painted over in practice, though at a first repaint, I suspect this wagon would have gone into overall grey. So, what do people think we're seeing here?

 

Look at the wagon below, however.  There is a discernable contrast between the shade of the metal work and the planking.  I am tempted to assume this is no more than the different rate of fade on the planking rather than jump to the conclusion that there is a difference in colour, but, again, what do people think we're seeing here?

 

It is given as an 1882 wagon pictured in 1902.  The positioning of the G. W. R on the right suggests that it has been repainted during its 20-year life (c. mid-'90s), and that it is likely to represent red livery, even were one to assume a pre-1904 introduction of grey. 

 

[Ian Smith]

In defence of my view of red wagons being red over all, one of the images that I used to come to that conclusion is offered below.  The image comes from the Outside Brake Van article by John Lewis in a British Railway Journal (No. 17).

 

As can be seen it is of an accident, and interestingly one of the Iron Minks is lying on its side, meaning that body side, solebar and brake gear handle are all in the same plane and exposed to the sunlight in a similar way (rather than being cast in shadow by the over-hanging body).  In my view the tone of the whole wagon seems to indicate that there is no discernible colour difference between the body and the solebar or axleboxes or the brake lever.  The liveries of the (visible) Iron Minks is the 5" G.W.R, and the caption estimates a time period 1897-1903, so I've reasonably assumed that the wagons would all be in red livery (except the Brake Van of course).

 

Thoughts???

 

Ian 

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, Ian Smith said:

In defence of my view of red wagons being red over all, one of the images that I used to come to that conclusion is offered below.  The image comes from the Outside Brake Van article by John Lewis in a British Railway Journal (No. 17).

 

As can be seen it is of an accident, and interestingly one of the Iron Minks is lying on its side, meaning that body side, solebar and brake gear handle are all in the same plane and exposed to the sunlight in a similar way (rather than being cast in shadow by the over-hanging body).  In my view the tone of the whole wagon seems to indicate that there is no discernible colour difference between the body and the solebar or axleboxes or the brake lever.  The liveries of the (visible) Iron Minks is the 5" G.W.R, and the caption estimates a time period 1897-1903, so I've reasonably assumed that the wagons would all be in red livery (except the Brake Van of course).

 

Thoughts???

 

Ian 

 

Thanks, Ian, that's a great photograph.

 

I am trying to curate this conversation as neutrally as possible, because the only thing I'm sure of is that we cannot be sure of these points. Hence I tried to sum this issue up as representing plausible alternatives.  My personal view is that I see a logic in consistent GW practice, apparently from the days of all-over brown in the 1850s, through to the all-over grey of the 1904 livery.  I try to judge each image or other piece of evidence as objectively as I can, nevertheless.

 

I would venture the following: 

 

- None of these seem to be long-bonnet minks. As I wouldn't put the earliest likely possible shift to grey earlier than 1898, I think it very likely that we are looking at 3 red minks.

 

- Like you, I cannot see any difference in tone.  To me this is not definitive proof that same tone indicates same colour - weathered to an even finished might be an explanation - but it probably makes it more likely to be the case.  Certainly there is nothing in this photograph to evidence black painted areas.  As neutrally as possible I would say this picture offers no positive evidence for black painted areas and tends to support all-over red. 

 

- Bear in mind, however, that the rooves probably started off white, which has blackened to grey, leaving a tone not very much difference from the body red, suggesting, perhaps, the limitations of judging colour from black and white tone.  That said, the uniformity of tone across a single plane of view between body and chassis and running gear is remarkable.  

 

- The brake van we agree will be grey. Do we think it an all-over grey?  If so, that would speak for a consistency of practice. 

 

 

 

 

[Mikkel]

On the issue of tone and telling the difference, have a look at the images in the comments to Mike's blog here:

 

 

54 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Pictures:

 

Below the ballast wagon which I understand is the basis for the comment on gwr.org that:

 

It is known that the GWR did start painting metal solebars on some wagons in black after 1888, to match the black of the running gear, but it is not known whether or when the black became generally applicable to metal solebar.

 

However, the body work is not how I would expect newly applied red paint to show up in an 1888 photograph. Is this wagon red? As it is a departmental wagon and not necessarily in red in any case, how good a guide to the painting of revenue earning red goods stock is it?

 

 

Trying to spot a difference between black running gear and/or solebars and red bodies (event where you are sure it's a red not an all-over grey wagon), can be difficult to impossible.  Are the wagons below all-over red, or red with black?  if the latter, which bits are black?

 

Note the iron mink rooves are apparently white.

 

 

 

 

The picture above neatly sums up the modeller's dilemma.  If you believe that red was applied to new-builds until the adoption of 25" initials in 1904, both wagons are red.  You then have to decide if the red extends to and/or below, the solebar. If you believe that c.1898 is more likely for the transition to grey, the wagon on the right is grey.  If we assume grey = all-over grey, the right hand vehicle is a single colour and the red one to the left may, or may not, be a single colour. 

 

When contrasting the shade of the two wagons and the degree of fade, bear in mind the left hand wagon is 6 years old and the right hand just one year old.

 

 

 

 

 

What about this one below?

 

It's a cast plate wagon, but from the first outing of cast plates. It's dated 1894 and should, based on what little we know, be red. 

 

As an ex-works picture, as the caption suggests, to demonstrate the cast plate innovation, it is possible that it has received a non-standard paint job.  I say this because there is, it seems to me, to be a contrast in the shade of all the metal in contrast to the wood.  This might merely reflect how the same paint appears differently on different materials, but, equally, might we be seeing black ironwork on red, including body strapping and corner plates etc? 

 

 

If we are seeing black iron work on the body, I'd venture the assumption that it would be a special job and, in any event, be painted over in practice, though at a first repaint, I suspect this wagon would have gone into overall grey. So, what do people think we're seeing here?

 

Look at the wagon below, however.  There is a discernable contrast between the shade of the metal work and the planking.  I am tempted to assume this is no more than the different rate of fade on the planking rather than jump to the conclusion that there is a difference in colour, but, again, what do people think we're seeing here?

 

It is given as an 1882 wagon pictured in 1902.  The positioning of the G. W. R on the right suggests that it has been repainted during its 20-year life (c. mid-'90s), and that it is likely to represent red livery, even were one to assume a pre-1904 introduction of grey. 

 

 

James, with respect, is that not going over the top in terms of reproducing photos from a published volume?  

[Edwardian]

48 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

On the issue of tone and telling the difference, have a look at the images in the comments to Mike's blog here:

 

 

Interesting, for sure, but I don't see it as definitive either way. Nothing ever is with these questions, that's the point.  I can see that where someone has made a decision as to what is more probable, they achieve the peace and serenity denied to those of us who remain in two minds, but I really cannot see one school of thought trumping the other on the basis of evidence on what I've seen so far. 

 

As to Mike's experiments, if anything, the red should show darker than the black on the basis of his red-insensitive B&W image. 

 

What help, if any, that is in interpreting a picture of a dirty and weathered wagon, I would not like to say.

 

48 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

James, with respect, is that not going over the top in terms of reproducing photos from a published volume?  

 

I strongly disagree, and rather resent the implicit disapproval. 

 

It seemed to be necessary to illustrate the point and advance the debate.  The very essence of this exercise requires study and comparison of as many images as possible.

 

But, as the saying goes, in every relationship there has to be a rebel and a policeman  

[Ian Smith]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

Thanks, Ian, that's a great photograph.

 

I am trying to curate this conversation as neutrally as possible, because the only thing I'm sure of is that we cannot be sure of these points. Hence I tried to sum this issue up as representing plausible alternatives.  My personal view is that I see a logic in consistent GW practice, apparently from the days of all-over brown in the 1850s, through to the all-over grey of the 1904 livery.  I try to judge each image or other piece of evidence as objectively as I can, nevertheless.

 

I would venture the following: 

 

- None of these seem to be long-bonnet minks. As I wouldn't put the earliest likely possible shift to grey earlier than 1898, I think it very likely that we are looking at 3 red minks.

 

- Like you, I cannot see any difference in tone.  To me this is not definitive proof that same tone indicates same colour - weathered to an even finished might be an explanation - but it probably makes it more likely to be the case.  Certainly there is nothing in this photograph to evidence black painted areas.  As neutrally as possible I would say this picture offers no positive evidence for black painted areas and tends to support all-over red. 

 

- Bear in mind, however, that the rooves probably started off white, which has blackened to grey, leaving a tone not very much difference from the body red, suggesting, perhaps, the limitations of judging colour from black and white tone.  That said, the uniformity of tone across a single plane of view between body and chassis and running gear is remarkable.  

 

- The brake van we agree will be grey. Do we think it an all-over grey?  If so, that would speak for a consistency of practice. 

 

 

 

 

James,

I think that what has been offered by yourself and others is very definitely a neutral viewpoint.  Personally, I have no axe to grind one way or another, as I don't think that the evidence is there to fully support or fully refute any argument.  As your previous set of images shows there is "evidence" that can be offered to support almost any argument, including that of black ironwork with red (or possibly even grey) woodwork!  Interestingly (to me at least) is the 4 planked 632 with the cast plates, as in looking for the accident photo I came upon that one and my immediate thought was that the woodwork does look a different colour to the ironwork (it's certainly a different tone, but it is also glossy rather than the matt of the woodwork which potentially confuses the issue further).

 

I have also revisited the images of wagons in the Broad Gauge dump which one would imagine are all red wagons, and again to my eyes I do not see a vastly different tone between the body work and the underframe to indicate that the lower parts of the wagons were in fact a different colour.  Obviously the wagons in those images are all at the end of their lives so are well weathered, by that I mean that as the demise of the Broad Gauge was on the cards for a while before it happened I cannot believe that any of the stock would have been repainted within 2 or 3 years (or probably more) of 1892.

 

Although there will probably never be any new evidence to come to light, I do find these discussions very interesting and enlightening.

 

Ian

[Mikkel]

1 minute ago, Edwardian said:

I can see that where someone has made a decision as to what is more probable, they achieve the peace and serenity denied to those of us who remain in two minds

 

I'm not certain at all about black running gear, as you have summarized well there is no conclusive evidence either way. In fact it would almost be a shame if the debate was settled, it has given rise to many an interesting conversation!

 

7 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

But, as the saying goes, in every relationship there has to be a rebel and a policeman  

 

Policing is not my usual style, it's just I'm thinking is that with a little restraint no one will worry, whereas if we exaggerate they might.

 

But who am I to talk, I am forever confused about these things. For example, I posted a postcard off ebay above, as I have been told that 1900s postcards aren't subject to copyright. But maybe the image itself is?  If so I'm being hypocritical.

[Compound2632]

Every experiment needs a control, so here's a photo of the tulip bed at Stamford station, taken on 23 April 1914:

 

 

NRM DY 10199, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum. (One of a series of photos of the flower beds at Stamford but the only one with wagons in it!)

 

Now, we know that these wagons were turned out of the paint shop in light lead grey for all bodywork including solebars and headstocks, and black for all ironwork below solebar level. (There is plenty of evidence for this spanning half a century, both photographs of newly-painted wagons and wagons in service but not as "mature" as these.)

 

Now, if you didn't know that, could you honestly say that there was any difference in colour between the bodywork and running gear of the two further wagons? Or, for that matter, that the running gear of the nearer wagon isn't red?

 

I note that there are very few photographs of Great Western wagons straight out of the paintshop from the last quarter of the 19th century, or indeed up to the Great War. 

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Mikkel said:

 

I'm not certain at all about black running gear, as you have summarized well there is no conclusive evidence either way. In fact it would almost be a shame if the debate was settled, it has given rise to many an interesting conversation!

 

 

Policing is not my usual style, it's just I'm thinking is that with a little restraint no one will worry, whereas if we exaggerate they might.

 

But who am I to talk, I am forever confused about these things. For example, I posted a postcard off ebay above, as I have been told that 1900s postcards aren't subject to copyright. But maybe the image itself is?  If so I'm being hypocritical.

 

Well, indeed.

 

I made at least 2, if not 3, points in relation to those pictures.  I suspect if I'd split them between 2 or 3 posts .... ?

 

I'm not trying to advocate a particular interpretation as correct or persuade others. Like you, I will have to make a decision on how to treat my models, otherwise I'll have no models.  I may be tending towards all-over red, but that's a fairly finely balanced judgment, so whichever way I choose, it won't be with great confidence or any assertion that 'this is right'!

 

 

11 minutes ago, Ian Smith said:

James,

I think that what has been offered by yourself and others is very definitely a neutral viewpoint.  Personally, I have no axe to grind one way or another, as I don't think that the evidence is there to fully support or fully refute any argument.  As your previous set of images shows there is "evidence" that can be offered to support almost any argument, including that of black ironwork with red (or possibly even grey) woodwork!  Interestingly (to me at least) is the 4 planked 632 with the cast plates, as in looking for the accident photo I came upon that one and my immediate thought was that the woodwork does look a different colour to the ironwork (it's certainly a different tone, but it is also glossy rather than the matt of the woodwork which potentially confuses the issue further).

 

I have also revisited the images of wagons in the Broad Gauge dump which one would imagine are all red wagons, and again to my eyes I do not see a vastly different tone between the body work and the underframe to indicate that the lower parts of the wagons were in fact a different colour.  Obviously the wagons in those images are all at the end of their lives so are well weathered, by that I mean that as the demise of the Broad Gauge was on the cards for a while before it happened I cannot believe that any of the stock would have been repainted within 2 or 3 years (or probably more) of 1892.

 

Although there will probably never be any new evidence to come to light, I do find these discussions very interesting and enlightening.

 

Ian

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

Those who crave certainty must model the GW after 1904 (or more like after 1914, when there would be few red wagons left!).

 

Currently I'm minded to go for a transition to grey with cast plate wagons c.1899-1900.  If I do not, I must follow Mikkel's impeccably logical conclusions drawn from the dark patch on his iron mink, and I would have to accept that there was a red mink with 25" initials, which, while entirely possible, causes my head to unscrew and clatter to the floor.

 

Currently I'm also minded to go for all-over red.  The evidence, which seems to be photographic or not at all, as you say is hardly definitive. For me, I like the idea of all-over brown, as described in 1852, followed by all-over red on broad gauge wagons (which looks and feels right to me), applied similarly to narrow gauge red wagons and succeeded by all-over grey.  The GW started and ended, in terms of this livery development, with iron construction; that may have been a factor. 

 

Rather than all-over grey being a conscious decision to break from tradition, at odds with all other companies, I feel more comfortable with the idea that the decision to apply grey all over was merely a continuation of a tradition of all-over paint schemes dating back to the early years of the company.  That just seems a rather Great Western thing to do. 

 

However, I could not stress too much how marginal these preferences are!

 

 

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Every experiment needs a control, so here's a photo of the tulip bed at Stamford station, taken on 23 April 1914:

 

 

NRM DY 10199, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum. (One of a series of photos of the flower beds at Stamford but the only one with wagons in it!)

 

Now, we know that these wagons were turned out of the paint shop in light lead grey for all bodywork including solebars and headstocks, and black for all ironwork below solebar level. (There is plenty of evidence for this spanning half a century, both photographs of newly-painted wagons and wagons in service but not as "mature" as these.)

 

Now, if you didn't know that, could you honestly say that there was any difference in colour between the bodywork and running gear of the two further wagons? Or, for that matter, that the running gear of the nearer wagon isn't red?

 

I note that there are very few photographs of Great Western wagons straight out of the paintshop from the last quarter of the 19th century, or indeed up to the Great War. 

 

Again, I would agree.

 

Mike Oxon's experiments show that, assuming a clean and unfaded wagon, the black work would if anything be lighter than newly applied red. However, on in service wagons, it is hard to detect whether a uniform or un-uniform tone suggests continuity or change in colour!

 

The question that you photograph surely begs is, do we know if the tulips are red?

[ICH]

I been considering the red issue for years myself hoping too build a layout in the 1890's  period.

My theory is this and it's only a theory; all the woodwork would have been painted red sides and the wooden underframes, and when attaching metal parts ie the Axleboxes, Brakes and W  Irons it would be likely all ready painted before fitting, black or dark grey. Then when they moved to metal underframes they would have painted them black or dark grey. But the wood would still be painted red.. I do appreciate that the metal work on the wagon sides should be dark under this theory so it may fall down on that point.

[MikeOxon]

39 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

......For me, I like the idea of all-over brown, as described in 1852, followed by all-over red on broad gauge wagons (which looks and feels right to me), applied similarly to narrow gauge red wagons and succeeded by all-over grey.  .......

 

The simple fact that red was preceded by all-over brown and succeeded by all-over grey is what convinced me that the most natural conclusion is that all-over red would be consistent with GWR practice both before and after.

 

Photographic evidence is fraught with difficulty because of the 'colour blind' response of early emulsions and the 'soot and whitewash' effect of shadows in the bright sunlight needed for early photography.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

causes my head to unscrew and clatter to the floor.

 

I'm inclined to sympathise in this particular case. 

 

7 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

The question that you photograph surely begs is, do we know if the tulips are red?

 

It is most frustrating that none of these photographers thought to include a standard colour card in their pictures. The nearest on gets are the livery boards in Gloucester RC&W Co photos, that tell you that the wagon is painted "light lead colour" or some such extremely unhelpful description!

 

One also has to consider the effect of surface texture on apparent shade in monochrome photos - a shiny surface will appear darker than a matt surface - vide the axlebox of the nearest wagon in that Stamford photo - which makes a photo of a wagon that has acquired a surface film of grime much more difficult to interpret.

 

To illustrate this, and as a further sanity check, I've been looking in P. Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 2005). This volume covers Great Northern wagons that survived to grouping and includes a number of photos of wagons in Great Northern livery (virtually all with the large G N lettering rather than the earlier G / NORTHERN / R style on three lines). GNR wagons were also painted red - Tatlow describes it as "brown / red oxide" but my gut feeling is that this is a description made with hindsight and knowledge of later paint technology and that what we're talking about for most of these red wagons is read lead, both on grounds of cost and durability. But even without that bit of interpretation, they're at the red end of the spectrum with all that implies for photographs of the period. Tatlow reproduces a number of official photos of wagons fresh out of the paintshop, e.g. pp. 12, 15, 38, where it is clear that the running gear is a different, darker, shade to the bodywork, and a number of photos of wagons that have been in traffic, e.g. pp. 18, 34, 41, where one cannot see any difference. Then there's a posed photo (official - but whose - GN or private builder?) on p. 33 where the body ironwork looks darker than the woodwork - but is this just down to the difference in reflectivity?

 

As a sop to those who advocate all-over red, I offer this Derby official photo, one of a series taken in Feb / Mar 1903 to illustrate methods of loading:

 

 

[NRM DY 2506, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.]

 

I am told that this is what is called a TANE and the pipes are for the gas main being laid from the Swindon gas works to Chippenham, IIRC.

 

Of course it might be grey but it's clearly the same colour all over. However, a note of caution: Midland bogie trollies of this period have the bogie frames painted grey like the bodywork, with only the axleboxes and springs painted black. So the treatment of a specially-constructed vehicle may not be a guide to the treatment of ordinary vehicles.

 

What am I driving at? I think one has to make a decision based on probability and personal preference, knowing full well that the evidence is not conclusive and so one's decision may, in fact, be wrong. But it appears at present that no-one knows any better than you so cannot sit in judgement on your decision. If you don't make a decision, you'll end up like a character in a Henry James novel and the discussion will go on nearly as long. 

 

For myself, I've gone with black ironwork below the solebar (mostly, notwithstanding that van model, which isn't really finished) because that's what any normal railway would do and in the 1890s the Great Western made its closest approach to looking like a normal railway:

 

[Edwardian]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

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One also has to consider the effect of surface texture on apparent shade in monochrome photos - a shiny surface will appear darker than a matt surface - vide the axlebox of the nearest wagon in that Stamford photo - which makes a photo of a wagon that has acquired a surface film of grime much more difficult to interpret.

 

Yes, both Ian and I seem to have similar reservations concerning what the picture of 632 appears to show.

 

 

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To illustrate this, and as a further sanity check, I've been looking in P. Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 2005). This volume covers Great Northern wagons that survived to grouping and includes a number of photos of wagons in Great Northern livery (virtually all with the large G N lettering rather than the earlier G / NORTHERN / R style on three lines). GNR wagons were also painted red - Tatlow describes it as "brown / red oxide" but my gut feeling is that this is a description made with hindsight and knowledge of later paint technology and that what we're talking about for most of these red wagons is read lead, both on grounds of cost and durability. But even without that bit of interpretation, they're at the red end of the spectrum with all that implies for photographs of the period. Tatlow reproduces a number of official photos of wagons fresh out of the paintshop, e.g. pp. 12, 15, 38, where it is clear that the running gear is a different, darker, shade to the bodywork, and a number of photos of wagons that have been in traffic, e.g. pp. 18, 34, 41, where one cannot see any difference. Then there's a posed photo (official - but whose - GN or private builder?) on p. 33 where the body ironwork looks darker than the woodwork - but is this just down to the difference in reflectivity?

 

I will have a look at these

 

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As a sop to those who advocate all-over red, I offer this Derby official photo, one of a series taken in Feb / Mar 1903 to illustrate methods of loading:

 

 

[NRM DY 2506, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.]

 

I am told that this is what is called a TANE and the pipes are for the gas main being laid from the Swindon gas works to Chippenham, IIRC.

 

Of course it might be grey but it's clearly the same colour all over. However, a note of caution: Midland bogie trollies of this period have the bogie frames painted grey like the bodywork, with only the axleboxes and springs painted black. So the treatment of a specially-constructed vehicle may not be a guide to the treatment of ordinary vehicles.

 

 

 

Indeed.  The Caledonian appears to be similar. On the CR such a vehicle would be all-over red.  Yet CR metal frame wagons seem to have had the solebars red and the running gear black.

 

Still, I can't help thinking that, if the GW was going to be different, and it usually was, it wouldn't start that in 1904 with all-over grey; it would have started it by at least 1852 and just kept going, and b*gger what any of the other companies might do!

 

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

Of course there's also an assumption that, prior to the concentration of wagon building at the new Swindon carriage & wagon works in the mid-1870s, that there was any consistency in painting style between Paddington, Worcester, and Saltney, or, indeed that there was any consistency for wagons repaired and repainted at Worcester and Saltney thereafter. (Were there other major wagon repair shops?)

 

Indeed, as @MikeOxon's Cinderford photos show, there's considerable variety in lettering layout, in 1890:

 

[Penrhos1920]

Does anyone have HMRS Members photo 15192?  In the GWSG/Dave Geen 3 plank kit instructions this photo is described “Various wagons in red and grey. Cinderford Iron”. Ambiguous in itself as is could mean red and grey wagons, or  red and grey wagons.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Penrhos1920 said:

Does anyone have HMRS Members photo 15192?  In the GWSG/Dave Geen 3 plank kit instructions this photo is described “Various wagons in red and grey. Cinderford Iron”. Ambiguous in itself as is could mean red and grey wagons, or  red and grey wagons.

 

This will be the photo in @MikeOxon's blog post that I linked to above.

 

I would caption it "various wagons in red, at various durations since last repaint." There is a four-plank, a three-plank, and a one-plank wagon that look darker than the rest; my interpretation is that they are the most recently painted.

[Penrhos1920]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This will be the photo in @MikeOxon's blog post that I linked to above.

 

I would caption it "various wagons in red, at various durations since last repaint." There is a four-plank, a three-plank, and a one-plank wagon that look darker than the rest; my interpretation is that they are the most recently painted.

 

Sorry Sir, I’m not paying proper attention sat here at the back!