Odd BREL International coach

[LU_fan]

While I am aware of the BREL International set being sold to Irish Rail after a few years in storage, I just stumbled across one coach which I've never seen before:

 

The text on Flickr doesn't offer much information, only stating that this was the one and only coach of the set built to UIC 505 profile.

 

Does anyone know what happened to this coach? Or simply have more info on it?

[BernardTPM]

I remember seeing in it in magazines at the time (probably Modern Railways, Motive Power Monthly or Rail) but I don't know anything else. It does look like it was the full length version as on the spec. sheet here.

[47513]

This came up on another forum a while back. It was a one off demonstration coach built to continental gauge, you can see how much wider it is from the overhang beyond the conventional B4 bogies. It ended up at the GCR(N) and was eventually scrapped. It has a page on the vintage carriage register:

http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=3495

[Dava]

19 minutes ago, 47513 said:

This came up on another forum a while back. It was a one off demonstration coach built to continental gauge, you can see how much wider it is from the overhang beyond the conventional B4 bogies. It ended up at the GCR(N) and was eventually scrapped. It has a page on the vintage carriage register:

http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=3495

Yes there are some scrap-hungry bunnies at GCRN. Lots more for them to get on with. Parts of the site are like scrapyard challenge.

[LU_fan]

5 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

I remember seeing in it in magazines at the time (probably Modern Railways, Motive Power Monthly or Rail) but I don't know anything else. It does look like it was the full length version as on the spec. sheet here.

 

4 hours ago, 47513 said:

This came up on another forum a while back. It was a one off demonstration coach built to continental gauge, you can see how much wider it is from the overhang beyond the conventional B4 bogies. It ended up at the GCR(N) and was eventually scrapped. It has a page on the vintage carriage register:

http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=3495

 

Shame to hear it was scrapped, would've made for an interesting museum exhibit. But, being built to continental gauge, how did it move around the country? Or did it simply stay stationary until it went to the GCR(N)?

[keefer]

Page about the International Train:

http://www.traintesting.com/International_train.htm

Thought at first it might be the 'extra' vehicle 99519 but obviously not so.

 

Presumably some sort of 'demonstrator' in an attempt to gain overseas orders - it has a very continental look to it, including the 'rubber tube' gangway.

 

[HGR]

Wasn't this one of the earlier batch of International coaches - from 1984 ? I'll have to do some trawling back through info. The first one done was a 'special' very high-spec vehicle for President Omar Bongo of the Gabonese Republic (a former French territory in Central Africa) ? Not sure how many more were made to the standard UIC '26.4 metre' spec. offering by BREL over the following couple of years if VCT says 1986 for this one.

 

The 'International Train' done a couple of years later were the ones that were very much Mk.3 derivative, albeit with flat plug doors in place of the wrap-around sort. BREL described them as '23 m' option.

 

 

 

 

[keefer]

The Gabon coach is mentioned in the linked article, stated as 1984.

The distinction is also made between International Coaches and the 'International Train' which was, as you say more Mk3-based

Edited April 25, 2021 by keefer

[w124bob]

I doubt that coach would have been sold on to a continental railway as seen, there appears to be no train heat or brake connections. Would have made a nice dormitory coach, plenty of shoulder room!

[russ p]

8 minutes ago, w124bob said:

I doubt that coach would have been sold on to a continental railway as seen, there appears to be no train heat or brake connections. Would have made a nice dormitory coach, plenty of shoulder room!

 

Just noticed that. Is this coach just a mock up on a mk1 underframe?  Seems odd to use B4s at such a late date unless it was intended for third world countries as they were then called 

[The Stationmaster]

46 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

Just noticed that. Is this coach just a mock up on a mk1 underframe?  Seems odd to use B4s at such a late date unless it was intended for third world countries as they were then called 

I wonder?    No problem over the bogies that were used as far as I can see (a good Swindon design  ) but the 'Berne rectangle' definitely doesn't look right when I lighten up the picture to have a better look at it.

[rodent279]

59 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

Just noticed that. Is this coach just a mock up on a mk1 underframe?  Seems odd to use B4s at such a late date unless it was intended for third world countries as they were then called 

Too long surely? Mk1's are just over 19m long, way shorter that the 23 & 26m norms for mainland Europe.

[russ p]

37 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Too long surely? Mk1's are just over 19m long, way shorter that the 23 & 26m norms for mainland Europe.

 

There is that , but I wonder if its been extended.  I think its some kind of mock up 

[Edwin_m]

3 hours ago, russ p said:

 

Just noticed that. Is this coach just a mock up on a mk1 underframe?  Seems odd to use B4s at such a late date unless it was intended for third world countries as they were then called 

Perhaps because the B4 didn't need air suspension, which might have been difficult with said absence of brake piping?  

 

What is your reason for thinking it's a mk1?  Not questioning, just wondering because the underframe is hardly visible.  

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, russ p said:

 

Just noticed that. Is this coach just a mock up on a mk1 underframe?  Seems odd to use B4s at such a late date unless it was intended for third world countries as they were then called 

 

It was expected that these would mostly go to less developed countries and were made on a very modular basis so that various levels of trim could be offered.

 

That coach does not look 23m long to me. So it could be on a Mk1 chassis as a mock-up but I don't think they were.

 

I was lucky enough to have a visit around the works at that time and a look round the "International" rake. A pity that it did not take off but the developing countries would be more likely to buy S/H or from a lower-cost manufacturer in Romania (or similar).  

[w124bob]

The whole thing  just looks a bit "film set", gaffer tape and plywood!

[Joseph_Pestell]

10 minutes ago, w124bob said:

The whole thing  just looks a bit "film set", gaffer tape and plywood!

 

I think that is just down to rather poor, faded paintwork. I recall the coaches I saw being to a good standard. I think that my trip would have been in 1984 or 1985, so the earlier coaches not the Mk3 clones.

 

The Gabon coach is to a very different profile, presumably for metre or 3'6 gauge.

[russ p]

2 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

Perhaps because the B4 didn't need air suspension, which might have been difficult with said absence of brake piping?  

 

What is your reason for thinking it's a mk1?  Not questioning, just wondering because the underframe is hardly visible.  

 

Building it on a mk1 underframe would make it a lot cheaper to build even if the production ones were going to be integral construction but they could easily demonstrate proposed interiors etc

The argument against mk1 underframe is on mk1s the headstock tapers out either side of the draw hook although the frames could have been extended at either end 

[Wickham Green too]

There wouldn't be much point using it as a demonstrator if all you could demonstrate was the interior & exterior finish  ................... "Oh yeah, structural integrity'll be fantastic - but you'll have to take our word for it 'til we get your dosh to build one for real, Guv." 

[BernardTPM]

The number of windows matches the diagram for the 26m version, so it would take a lot of work to properly extend a Mk.1 underfame for it, not to mention not a good sales point, as Wickham points out above. Perhaps the larger loading gauge and the angle of the photograph makes it look shorter than it is. B4 bogies were used under several designs of coach, so that proves nothing.

[russ p]

2 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

The number of windows matches the diagram for the 26m version, so it would take a lot of work to properly extend a Mk.1 underfame for it, not to mention not a good sales point, as Wickham points out above. Perhaps the larger loading gauge and the angle of the photograph makes it look shorter than it is. B4 bogies were used under several designs of coach, so that proves nothing.

 

As Bob said earlier,  it just looks a bit odd 

[Wickham Green too]

Well ...... it IS foreign-ish !

[w124bob]

The more I look at it the odder it seems, UIC spec coaches tend have a much greater overhang between bogie and coach end, also recessed doors, those handles look like MFI left overs. I wonder if a freight liner flat is under all that "body work" and it's on borrowed bogies, it just seems to have no substance.

[BernardTPM]

Standard Eurofirma UIC coach - no recessed doors, similar overhang at the end (doors outboard of the bogies).

More about this demonstrator here. It was a real bodyshell, but not fitted out for actual line running.

[russ p]

Built in the days when this country still had a railway export industry,  shame it didn't come to anything