Weird buffer spacing on Fleischmann wagon?

[Guest WM183]

Hi all.

 

I bought a handful of wagons over the past week or so, mostly brawa but also a Fleischmann bogie rungenwagen. The buffers on the Fleischmann car are spaced quiite a lot farther apart than those on any of my other wagons or my locomotive. Its an era iii DB marked car, so im quite confused by this. Any one have any idea why this might be?

 

Pondering the puffers,

 

Amanda

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Amanda,

Without a picture, I cannot be sure but it’s possible this is a very old model, in the past Fleischmann used a scale of approximately 1/80th (I think!)  -  this may account for such a difference.

 I feel quite sure your Brawa vehicles will not suffer such changeable scales.

 I assume this is H0?

If I am correct, your Fleischmann wagon must date from at least 50 years ago or more.

John

[Guest WM183]

Hi John,

It  is No 5286, in a clear plastic box; I'm pretty sure it's quite a lot newer than 50 years, as it matches my Brawa bogie rungenwagen well in length. The buffers are just a good 4mm further apart than they are on the Brawa wagon! The buffers on my Fleischmann locomotive are not like this, so I have no idea what is going on with it. Sigh. The wagon says "Made in Germany" not "Made in West Germany" so I am guessing it's newer than 1990?

Amanda

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Amanda,

Thanks for the extra info, I’ve hunted high and low and I can neither confirm nor deny my suspicions!

 The best I can do is offer this;

https://www.mobadaten.info/wiki/FLM_5286_(80)_DB_III_SSk_07_Rungenwagen_mit_Bremserbühne_(4-achsig)_und_Ladegut_"Opel-Wagen_unter_Plane"

This linked article shows a special edition version (80 5286) but then all the variations of the original are linked lower down, I can find nothing!

 The oldest version I have seen shows the wagon with the original Fleischmann hook & loop type couplings but no sign of when it was first produced.

Sorry!

John

[Andy Hayter]

15 hours ago, WM183 said:

Hi John,

It  is No 5286, in a clear plastic box; I'm pretty sure it's quite a lot newer than 50 years, as it matches my Brawa bogie rungenwagen well in length. The buffers are just a good 4mm further apart than they are on the Brawa wagon! The buffers on my Fleischmann locomotive are not like this, so I have no idea what is going on with it. Sigh. The wagon says "Made in Germany" not "Made in West Germany" so I am guessing it's newer than 1990?

Amanda

 

 

Made in Germany started again after WW2* in the period 1952-55.  Some companies preferred made in West Germany to distinguish from products from the DDR but that was not compulsory.  So the mark is not conclusive of the item being produced in the 1990s.  There is also a point that a model could be made in the 1990s but from moulds made very much earlier - witness the continued use of what should be life expired wagon underframes from UK manufacturers.  

 

*  There was a period post 1945 when items were labelled made in the XXX zone - or something similar

[Guest WM183]

Good to know!

Would wagons from that period have come in a plastic box though? It also definitely has more modern wheels... is there a site or catalog or something, a database, where I can get information on such things?

All the best!

Amanda

[Bernard Lamb]

That set me thinking.

I have several similar wagons but not the one in question.

None have an odd buffer spacing.

I have what I thought was one, but on checking it is actually by Klein and the buffer spacing is correct.

Sorry, unable to help, but curious as to the origins of this model.

Bernard

[sncf231e]

On 28/04/2021 at 12:57, WM183 said:

is there a site or catalog or something, a database, where I can get information on such things?

All the best!

Amanda

In German (of course):

https://www.mobadaten.info/wiki/FLM_5286_(85)_DB_III_SSk_07_Rungenwagen_mit_Bremserbühne_(4-achsig)_und_Ladegut_"Oberleitungsbus_ÜHIIIs"

Regards

Fred

[Guest WM183]

Hi guys

 

I can read German pretty well - an advantage of living 3km from the German border! Ty for the link.

 

Ill get a pic of the odd wagon and its box up tomorrow - writing this from my phone in bed, hehe

 

Amanda 

[D9020 Nimbus]

On 28/04/2021 at 11:43, Andy Hayter said:

witness the continued use of what should be life expired wagon underframes from UK manufacturers.  

Shouldn't that be wagon bodies? Thinking of the various Dapol wagons using 60+ year old Hornby Dublo tooling.

[Guest WM183]

Here are the promised pictures:

 

 

 

[readingtype]

I can't imagine exactly what happened in the production of this model, and the MoBaDaten wiki page doesn't seem to reveal anything relevant.

 

I have a similar Fleischmann wagon and I've done a comparison of the buffer spacing against a more conventional model (Brawa):

 

 

And perhaps more significantly a comparison of the article number:

 

 

A couple of other observations. Firstly, the Fleischmann model of a covered van that was made at a larger scale has buffer spacing that is almost indistinguishable from 1:87, even though the wagon is obviously much larger:

 

 

Secondly, the Fleischmann BR 94 has widely spaced buffers but, I think, is otherwise to 1:87 scale (apart from the wheels and the axle spacing):

 

 

 

 

[Guest WM183]

Ive noticed that k numbered wagons seem to be much newer and better detailed. I suppose ill see if i can move the buffers on mine, as a bunch of rungenwagen and schienenwagen are needed for our lumber intensive branch line. 

 

Thanks much!

 

Amanda 

[SamThomas]

K suffex denotes close coupling & NEM pockets.

 

The wide buffer spacing was typical of models produced at the time.

 

Some locomotives also "sat" higher too.

[doctor quinn]

On 07/05/2021 at 22:35, WM183 said:

Ive noticed that k numbered wagons seem to be much newer and better detailed. I suppose ill see if i can move the buffers on mine, as a bunch of rungenwagen and schienenwagen are needed for our lumber intensive branch line. 

 

Thanks much!

 

Amanda 

The French detail manufacturer AMF87 do cast white metal modern buffers which I’ve used before. https://www.amf87.fr/prestashop/tampons/816-a234eco-4-tampons-ronds-modernes-4000000010791.html
 

As of March they we happy to fulfill orders from the U.K. 

[Guest WM183]

Sam: I will try to only get the K suffixed fleischmann wagons then, or the nice Brawa ones! They're nice, but seem worth it.

 

Dr Quinn: I am in the EU, so ordering from France is easy enough. I'll get some buffers and change it over.

 

Thanks guys!

[SamThomas]

6 hours ago, WM183 said:

Sam: I will try to only get the K suffixed fleischmann wagons then, or the nice Brawa ones! They're nice, but seem worth it.

 

There are some Fleischmann wagons that have the correct buffer spacing that don't have NEM pockets - IIRC, the wide spacing buffer wagons also tend to have metal chassis.

[Bernard Lamb]

On 07/05/2021 at 18:32, readingtype said:

 

Secondly, the Fleischmann BR 94 has widely spaced buffers but, I think, is otherwise to 1:87 scale (apart from the wheels and the axle spacing):

 

 

 

 

 

I have one of those and never noticed. I use Roco rigid close couplings and as the buffers do not come into contact between vehicles it is not a problem. Now you point it out it is rather odd.

Bernard

[readingtype]

17 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Now you point it out it is rather odd.

Hmm, yes. Apologies. Worth saying that the 94 is a great model with a really good presence despite the shortcomings mentioned. The superstructure stands up pretty well even half a century (I think) after it was first released and the valve gear got an upgrade at some point that brought it into line with the rest of the range. Must be in the eye of the observer, but it is a  trick Fleischmann seemed to be able to pull, getting away with all kinds of naughtiness. Maybe the good running distracts?

 

I guess the wide buffer spacing must be due to the need to keep the old-style tension lock coupling hook clear of all obstructions on an R1 curve. The older BR 94s are of the era where the Fleischmann approach to fitting a coupler was a large slot in the buffer beam and a bloody great peg to keep it there. Their arch rivals in Göppingen were using a much less obtrusive system, but I think an improvement on the Fleischmann side might only have come when the NEM 'pocket' was introduced and owners could choose which coupler they preferred. But I'm speculating. Others will know the real story :-)

 

Ben

[Bernard Lamb]

23 minutes ago, readingtype said:

Hmm, yes. Apologies. Worth saying that the 94 is a great model with a really good presence despite the shortcomings mentioned. The superstructure stands up pretty well even half a century (I think) after it was first released and the valve gear got an upgrade at some point that brought it into line with the rest of the range. Must be in the eye of the observer, but it is a  trick Fleischmann seemed to be able to pull, getting away with all kinds of naughtiness. Maybe the good running distracts?

 

I guess the wide buffer spacing must be due to the need to keep the old-style tension lock coupling hook clear of all obstructions on an R1 curve. The older BR 94s are of the era where the Fleischmann approach to fitting a coupler was a large slot in the buffer beam and a bloody great peg to keep it there. Their arch rivals in Göppingen were using a much less obtrusive system, but I think an improvement on the Fleischmann side might only have come when the NEM 'pocket' was introduced and owners could choose which coupler they preferred. But I'm speculating. Others will know the real story :-)

 

Ben

Apologies?

I meant to say thanks for pointing it out. Your explanation makes sense. I think that mine is a fairly modern version with the better valve gear. it runs well and provides a contrast to my Piko Saxon class 94. I like your description of a bloody great peg. I know that feature from the BR 38 that I had to hack about to fit an alternative coupling. Another ancient model that still looks acceptable.

Bernard

[readingtype]

 

Gratuitous pic of the Fleischmann model. I don't own this one now; it has or had digital uncoupling, which in hindsight I wouldn't have paid for, but that's personal preference. From the side of course the buffer spacing issue isn't readily discerned.

[Vinedusk]

On 11/05/2021 at 00:02, SamThomas said:

K suffex denotes close coupling & NEM pockets.

 

The wide buffer spacing was typical of models produced at the time.

 

Some locomotives also "sat" higher too.

 

What's the difference between K and KKK?

 

Here's the Brawa 47217 SSml buffer end:

 

 

 

Here's the Fleischmann buffer end from 580908 set:

 

 

Both cars have buffers inset from the sides of the car.

 

[SamThomas]

3 hours ago, Vinedusk said:

 

What's the difference between K and KKK?

 

 

AFAIK nothing - Fleischmann use K & other manufactures use KKK to denote  close couplings & NEM pockets.

Using non-close coupled stock with Fleischmann Profi Couplers you can alternate the wagons/cars with those that do have close couplers to close the gaps up a bit.

Early Rowa (pre-Roco) used an early sort of short NEM pocket that was able to take (with a bit of fettling) alternative couplings.

 

 

Hope this helps.

[Marc Osborne]

Hi

 

This wagon could easily be 40 years old. It has no K after the number therefore is not fitted for close coupling. They have fitted close couplers as standard for at least 30 years. 
 

Also, I used to work in a model shop selling Fleischmann and the rolling stock was available in plastic boxes way back then. Hope that helps