Hornby B12 Tune-up

[josh_will]

Hi all,

 

I’m working on this Hornby B12 (possibly B12/3?) which needs a bit of TLC.

 

I have decided to repaint it as there are some blemishes to the paintwork. To keep things simple I have opted to paint it in LNER Wartime Black, which is something perhaps a little different to the norm as well.

 

I have bought a few components to get it back to good running order. However I’ve hit a problem: the wheel bushes I ordered are too large in diameter for the axles. I’m unsure which ones are the correct ones.

[Il Grifone]

I think the bush you require is part no. S.8397.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

There are two types of axle used at Margate.

 

The original type of axles are the same diameter all the way across.

 

These use the larger diameter insulating  bushes.

 

Later, I think possibly late 1970s, early 1980s...memory fails me just now, the axles were changed, to have a smaller diameter of axle inside the wheel hubs, but the rest of the axle remained the same as the original type.

 

I call these “stepped axles”, and these are the ones in your photo.

 

Though this is the Service Sheet for the Hall Class locos, a lot of the parts, including the axles, bushes, stepped axles, X.03 motor with single start worm, etc. are the same as your loco.

 

 

Your loco...LNER green 8509. Most likely the 1979 version...

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=18

 

The Hornby Railways wartime black, NE, B12 model...

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=41

 

 

[josh_will]

Many thanks for the replies.

I’m also slightly baffled by the absence of the exhaust unit on this loco - I can only guess that the previous owner took it out. I know very little about the origins of this model. It came unboxed and it was given to me as a present when I was a young child in the late ‘90s. It came from an old antiques store. It hasn’t really been run properly in about 20 years either. I may have attempted to oil it (with WD40?!) when I was a child - can’t quite remember - which possibly caused the degradation of the original bushes.

 

I’ll definitely try the S.8397 bushes.

 

 

Regards,

 

Josh

[33C]

Look for an X393 smoke unit for this B12. (service sheet 86)

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The Synchrosmoke unit was not fitted to locomotives made after 1974.

 

The B12 used the small smoke unit, with a special lid that has a long spout.

 

 

For the “Exhaust Steam Sound, the tender was fitted with a plastic sound box. There was a brass strip with grit on one end connected to the sound box, and dropped through a hole in the tender chassis, to be scraped by a scraper which was clipped over the sleeved axle of the rearmost tender wheel set.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by Ruffnut Thorston
Service Sheet added... link added

[Il Grifone]

I always disconnect or remove the wretched things. The smoke effect is rubbish and the oil damages the plastic and the paint.

The chuff effect is about as effective. I swapped axles on my 'Scotsman' tender to shut it up.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Il Grifone

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The scraper is only clipped on...a moment to remove.

 

No need to actually swap over axles....

[BernardTPM]

The combination of LNER green, no smoke and the matt finish would suggest it probably dates from 1978-79.

[A Murphy]

Thank you for putting this topic up josh-will and good luck with your project.

 

Does anybody know if these older B12s (as compared to the excellent brand spanking newish Hornby product) were basically dimensionally accurate? Are they a suitable subject for an uprating job?

 

I hope you don't mind me using your thread........

 

Best wishes,

 

Alastair 

[josh_will]

Alastair,

 

Of course you can join in on this thread. I’m sure it’ll help me too. However I won’t be uprating this model - simply getting it back to its former glory.

 

Thanks for the info on the smoke unit - I’m not going to look at retrofitting one, I just thought that this loco would have had one (not knowing they no longer had them after ‘74).

 

Regards,

 

Josh

[Il Grifone]

12 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

The scraper is only clipped on...a moment to remove.

 

No need to actually swap over axles....

 

Mine refused to move and I only managed to crack the axle IIRC. It had been there rather a long time....

[Ruffnut Thorston]

11 hours ago, A Murphy said:

Thank you for putting this topic up josh-will and good luck with your project.

 

Does anybody know if these older B12s (as compared to the excellent brand spanking newish Hornby product) were basically dimensionally accurate? Are they a suitable subject for an uprating job?

 

I hope you don't mind me using your thread........

 

Best wishes,

 

Alastair 

Hi Alistair.

 

Looking around, it seems that there are some dimensional changes.

 

Someone else will hopefully have chapter and verse on that...

 

But, it isn’t a bad model in my opinion.

 

The last of the China made models is nice...and is still basically the C1960 model, but with many improvements...and a few potential drawbacks...the motor worm and gear wheel can wear...and the motor is designed to be swapped out, not repaired.

 

That said, if required, an X.03 motor and gear wheel could be fitted instead. 

 

 

[josh_will]

I’ve stripped the paint from the driving wheels. These will then by painted black. I’ve chosen to use some replacement centre driving wheels to ensure that the coupling rods remain nice and tight when screwed in place. I’ve also fashioned some replacement lower step portions as the originals had been broken.

 

[BernardTPM]

Call me a heretic, but I think the slightly smaller boiler on the Tri-ang B12 looks better than the real thing...

[roythebus1]

I've got some X04 motors that are runners and a few MW005 5-pole versions of the same motor if that's any help.

 

didn't the B12 have synchrosmoke fitted at one time? ISTR an advert on the back of the Railway Modeller with an inverted triangular shape with the words puff puff puff adverting said feature. Synchrosmoke was a piston inside the Mazak smoke unit driven by a second gear wheel on the top of the worm wheel.

 

The B12 chassis was an excellent runner, I used a couple under Gem LNWR 4-6-0s that used to run on the original MRC OO layout in the 1960s.

[A Murphy]

This just looks like fun. I'm going to do it anyway! 

 

Alastair

[cypherman]

Hi all,

The B12 chassis was used on several loco's. The B12 of course but also the Hall and a slightly modified version for the original Black 5. I was a long serving chassis for both Triang and Hornby.

[alastairq]

3 minutes ago, cypherman said:

I was a long serving chassis for both Triang and Hornby.

 We have a lot to thank you for, then?   

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Introduced for the B12, the chassis block was indeed used for a lot of other locomotives, including the Hall...

 

Probably the first modification was to add a groove in the motor mount area to accommodate the motion bracket for the Flying Scotsman LNER Class A3 models.

 

This same chassis was also used under the LMS Streamline Princess Coronation Locomotives.

 

The Tender Drive Black 5 was likely to originally been planned as a loco drive model, along with many Tender Drive locomotives introduced around this time.

 

it is relatively easy to convert a Black 5 to loco drive, by fitting the collector from another model, and fitting a motor and appropriate drive gear.

 

The Black 5 has the chassis extension to take the cylinder block extended back into the motor mount area as a weight. (This requires modifications to fit a motor ...)

 

The Black Five body mounting screw position made it necessary to drill out the screw hole behind the motor mount to clear the larger diameter body fixing screw.

 

The Ivatt 2MT 2-6-0 tender loco also uses the B12 chassis block.

 

Another loco to use this chassis block, surprisingly seeing as there was already an 0-6-0 chassis in use, was the inside frame Diesel Shunter based on a Class 08. The original version of this new model had an automatic uncoupling feature.

 

This model has a large plastic sub frame, which quite effectively hides most of the chassis block.

[josh_will]

Very interesting Ruffnut!

 

Out of interest, what does everybody think was the better configuration for larger Hornby steam locos? Use an X.03/X.04 in the body, or use the (largely disliked?) ringfield motor in the tender with the enormous moulded “coal” load - but with the benefit of collecting current from both loco and tender?

[Il Grifone]

An X.03 driving through the Hornby 28:1 plastic gears is definitely the way to go*. The X.03 and X.04 are basically the same motor apart from the worms and the presence or otherwise of the felt oil retaining rings.

 

A tender drive is a last resort when there is no room in the locomotive. Eliminating slop in the drawbar (pushbar in this case  ) helps to kerb the tender starts first effect.

Many years ago, I motorised a Kitmaster 'City of Truro' (as 3712 'City of Bristol') with a K's tender drive unit (in EM). This worked fine, but now needs rebuilding - plastic makes poor bearings.

My Hornby 9F 2-10-0 ('Evening Star' - what else?) suffers from a tendency to lock up her driving wheels . It appears to be a quartering problem compounded by excessive slop. I've swapped wheelsets which has improved matters. This also needs rebuilding - to correct the ridiculous excessive height of the boiler centreline. I wasn't going to get one for this very reason, but I was offered an example at an extremely Grifone friendly price!  She did need a new tender body, but I found one at a reasonable price.

My Dean Goods floundered on my attempt to convert her to EM (one day I might build this layout...). The pyramid of plastic coal was going to be replaced by a lesser quantity of the real thing hiding a K's tender drive.

 

* Other makes of gears are available, but these fit straight into Tri-ang and Hornby chassis. Replacing Tri-ang wheels with the Hornby equivalent improves the appearance, but is not essential as the axles are the same diameter.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Il Grifone

[sncf231e]

19 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Call me a heretic, but I think the slightly smaller boiler on the Tri-ang B12 looks better than the real thing...

Regards

Fred

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The X.04 motors have a brass twin start worm, and need the correct gear wheel on the driven axle. These are either brass, or black plastic, with 40 teeth.

 

Most have felt pads on the bearings, but the last batches had these omitted, probably to save costs...These late motors also have a shorter armature shaft, which needed the brass worm to be fitted on backwards, as there is insufficient shaft length to take up the taper in the worm hole...

The shorter armature shaft was the same as that used in Scalextric motors.

 

The X.03 motors come in two variations, as the X. Number was reused!

 

 The original X.03, logically, preceded the X.04, and came after the X.02.

 

The original X.03 motors also have brass twin start worms. Some have a felt pad around the front bearing, and not the rear bearing. The driving gear is the same as for the X.04.

 

The new type X.03 has a black plastic single start worm, and needs a different driving gear, with 28 teeth. These are usually silver grey plastic, but other colours were used, including, confusingly, some in black plastic. 

 

The X.03 gear set was said to be of a better ratio for controllability.

 

It is quite possible to retro fit the X.04 motors with the new type X.03 plastic worm, and fit the 28 tooth gear wheel to the driven axle if required...

 

Service Sheets with specifications...

 

 

 

 

 

[cypherman]

Hi all,

I have 2 Black 5's that are now engine driven. Along with 4 others that still have the ringfield motors. I did try a hybrid that had both motors but the X04 motor kept trying to drag the Ringfield faster than it wanted to go.