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Beckenham Junction


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2 hours ago, Mark L Horstead said:

 

Roger Class 33s - more potential variety (and expense, but probably a trivial amount overall) and the shunting potential. The location of the switch to diesel power gives me a good idea of the end point for third-rail service into the yard - none at all.

 

I had found one or two photographs of the coal concentration depot, but do not remember it from any of my trips back. Nor do I remember seeing any hoppers, ever. My memory of mineral wagons is most likely pre-emigration (1965). I'm not sure at all what I'll do about the yard. I may just base it on whatever photographs I might find (no luck so far, but I found a shot of the north side of the signal box online last night). It may have to be largely fictional. I like mineral wagons.

 

Certainly no 3rd rail in the yard and probably not in the headshunt, the coal concentration depot had one siding which ran parallel to the platform 4 line, about 1/3rd of the way along it passed over the discharge hopper and then split into two short sidings, each of which would hold about 10 wagons.  The may have also been a short cripple siding branching off near the yard entrance, but as yet I cannot locate a plan of the CCD (coal concentration depot).  Certainly there would have been no hopper wagons (TOPS type HTV) prior to the CCD opening in 1966 and you can never have too many mineral wagons.  The old goods yard would certainly provide a greater variety of wagons and traffic, but model wise would require much more space, a plan showing the pre CCD yard layout is appended below.

 

1628422168_BeckenhamJunction-Planpre1966.jpg.09b7f37711ed25e4afb7b0f974288f5b.jpg

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After reviewing, at a more leisurely pace, my initial questions and the answers received, I now have the following questions and observations:

 

Would/could BR-pattern EMUs have run through Beckenham Junction?

 

Despite my preference for Bulleid-pattern EMUs, the Bachmann 2EPB would be the quickest and simplest option. I've previously gone through the applicable threads elsewhere here to investigate the possibility of splicing an extra couple of coaches in between, and recently received Bulleid Coaches In 4mm Scale from Stella & Rose's Books in Tintern, Monmouthshire as it was mentioned here and appears to be the best possible guide. If I remember correctly from my readings here, I may have to sacrifice a third coach to achieve the correct lengths of the other two so would be forced to build more four-car sets to use up the leftovers.


Has anybody seen/tried the Rue d'Etropal 3D-printed 4SUB? I just stumbled upon that site a few hours ago. A four-car set would be a bit pricey, but if one does not overspend on one's hobbies, what good are they?

 

Paint might be a problem. I have an ancient tin of Humbrol BR Blue that sounds liquidy enough, but cannot get other British paints besides Humbrol here and I'm more used to acrylics. Humbrol Acrylic BR Diesel Blue RC411 appears to be the correct BR Blue, but "Diesel" makes me a little unsure.

 

Regarding steam on the Golden Arrow, 70014 Iron Duke was mentioned as one of two locomotives so used in one response. The other, according to SREmG, was 70004 William Shakespeare and that would be my first choice, given my connection to Stratford, Ontario, home of the Stratford Shakespearean Festival. I'll continue to dig for information about which Bulleid Pacifics would have been used. (After writing that and scrolling around looking for replies that I may have missed, I see that RFS supplied the information about William Shakespeare - belated thanks, and my grandmother used to take me shopping in Lewisham although I cannot remember what she wanted there that she could not get in Beckenham; I have two buses that will eventually be remarked for 54 and 227 routes.) 

 

Aside from a daily coal train that lasted much longer than I imagined, I gather that there were no other goods trains through Beckenham Junction other than the occasional diversion between 1962ish and 1972, yes? What commodities would have (likely) been moved by such diverted trains, aside from box vans? Would wooden open wagons still be common? I have an SR pillbox brake van on order and have about a half of a dozen assorted Parkside and Dapol kits as guinea pigs for various previously-unused weathering techniques possible with much more modern paints available now.

 

Are drawings available of the station buildings and the last signal box available anywhere?

 

Are aerial photographs available? I tried Britain from Above, with no luck.

 

Ballast colour, beneath the grimy oil/sludge/tar coating?

 

Regarding the "scenic break at the west end", that has been causing me some concern. Does anybody have any old newspaper clippings regarding the tectonic plate shift that moved the tunnel under Crystal Palace just far enough east for my purposes? Are there any photographs of the tunnel entrance at the east end?

 

What are "ECS trains", as mentioned by Oldddudders?

 

I've been building a list of manufacturers of all things, especially detailing parts, but not all parts are illustrated and I've yet to find time to plough through them all. There are some ornate curly cast-iron "brackets" on the exterior walls of the station buildings that support the platform canopy, as seen here. Does anybody produce anything similar in etched brass?

 

That's it for tonight, and a really, really huge thanks to everybody who has answered so far.

Edited by Mark L Horstead
Better link to curly cast-iron canopy brackets.
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2 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

Certainly no 3rd rail in the yard and probably not in the headshunt, the coal concentration depot had one siding which ran parallel to the platform 4 line, about 1/3rd of the way along it passed over the discharge hopper and then split into two short sidings, each of which would hold about 10 wagons.  The may have also been a short cripple siding branching off near the yard entrance, but as yet I cannot locate a plan of the CCD (coal concentration depot).  Certainly there would have been no hopper wagons (TOPS type HTV) prior to the CCD opening in 1966 and you can never have too many mineral wagons.  The old goods yard would certainly provide a greater variety of wagons and traffic, but model wise would require much more space, a plan showing the pre CCD yard layout is appended below.

 

Thanks. I found that map, or something almost identical, somewhere online a couple of years ago and Side by side georeferenced maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland (nls.uk) last night - a really slick comparison.

 

Some north-south compression is going to be necessary, so a couple of sidings will have to be deleted and/or angles altered.

 

I enlarged prints of that map after finding it, but not quite to full 4mm scale.

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7 hours ago, Mark L Horstead said:

What are "ECS trains", as mentioned by Oldddudders?

ECS = Empty Coaching Stock.

Colour of ballast, I'd go with the light brown, years of brake block dust.

You may find more photo's here - https://boroughphotos.org/bromley/

This book may be helpful - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Heyday-Stewarts-Lane-Its-Locomotives/dp/0711027919

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/stewarts-lane-depot-battersea-the-two-4-6-2-steam-news-photo/90747159

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/golden-arrow-train-on-its-trial-run-in-london-news-photo/107417033?adppopup=true

Steam and Electric 'Arrow - https://www.kentrail.org.uk/dover_marine.htm

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As someone mentioned further up this thread, BR and Bulleid EPB units were completely interchangeable on the S.E.D. ( photo from 16/3/86 below ) .......... have you tried DC Kits : https://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=131_224_139

 

Humbrol Acrylic BR Diesel Blue RC411 looks like it's meant to be standard 'Rail Blue' rather than any experimental shade.

 

The tectonic shift which moved Penge Tunnel adjacent to Beckenham Junction seems to have subsumed Penge East and Kent House stations - and my old school - while permitting restoration of the railway ..... odd that !

 

154_11.jpg.766d801567d8a523dc882707d3fd1600.jpg

 

Edited by Wickham Green too
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I have no recollection of headcode 24 - 70 was the Victoria to Orpington one. And of course Holborn Viaduct trains had odd-numbered headcodes.

 

As a terribly unimportant aside, that edifice poking out of the mist beyond the station in Wickham's picture is 1 Albemarle Road, South Eastern Division HQ from about 1968 until 1984, when BR abolished Divisions. I, and I believe SED Freightman, were wage-slaves there in its final years. The top floor seen here was occupied by the Divisional Civil Engineer and his people. I would spend time up there in the P Way Office discussing track layouts and rationalisations. It was a happy time for me. 

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44 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I have no recollection of headcode 24 - ........

AHA - fooled you ! ............... 24 was Hayes to Charing Cross via Lewisham  -  but Hayes was closed for Engineering Works that day ( Odd that this service didn't start from the bay platform - presumably the unit was just coming into service ? )

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12 hours ago, Mark L Horstead said:

After reviewing, at a more leisurely pace, my initial questions and the answers received, I now have the following questions and observations:

 

Despite my preference for Bulleid-pattern EMUs, the Bachmann 2EPB would be the quickest and simplest option. I've previously gone through the applicable threads elsewhere here to investigate the possibility of splicing an extra couple of coaches in between, and recently received Bulleid Coaches In 4mm Scale from Stella & Rose's Books in Tintern, Monmouthshire as it was mentioned here and appears to be the best possible guide. If I remember correctly from my readings here, I may have to sacrifice a third coach to achieve the correct lengths of the other two so would be forced to build more four-car sets to use up the leftovers.

 

 

The 2-EPB consists of a motor brake  coach and a driving trailer, but a 4-EPB has two motor brake coaches so you can't just add two trailers. 2-EPBs did often work in multiple so a pair of them would provide a 4-EPB formation with no modifications - it's how I run mine. 

 

Here's a picture of a 6-EPB formation for example - https://railphotoprints.uk/p116820179/e55db9ff4

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7 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

I have no recollection of headcode 24 - 70 was the Victoria to Orpington one. And of course Holborn Viaduct trains had odd-numbered headcodes.

Cannon Street headcode were also odd numbers. The arrangement was much like on the Central Division with Victoria (even) and London Bridge (odd, one number higher). So 24 was Charing Cross - Hayes via Lewisham and 25 the same but to/from Cannon St. I’ve always thought that a very sensible arrangement because at larger stations you could look at the headcode and know which London terminus, without having to remember them all individually.

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10 hours ago, 73c said:

Much appreciated.

 

I'd never have guessed ECS.

 

Light brown matches what I am seeing in some photographs. There's a chap who sells/sold, among other things, a very large variety of ballast at some shows - not that there have been any of those here, either, for far too long.  He matched colour to specific North American railways and geographic areas. The current ballast in the station looks so much cleaner than what was there in earlier days - it may have been the first ballast ever deposited there, judging by its coating. I intend to depict it that way, but do not know if it was thus only between the platforms or also out on the open road. Perhaps I shall stumble across a suitable colour photograph eventually.

 

I just ordered the Stewart Lane book. That must have been the facility that I remember passing many times between Beckenham and Victoria. I spent quite some time going through a Flickr album last night - I'm on page 25 of 80 - with a random collection of Beckenham-themed photographs. One of them showed a breakdown crane at Stewart's Lane and that triggered the memory. There were also some photographs of a row of old shops in Beckenham being demolished, but I could not place them, and later found out that there is a Beckenham in New Zealand that suffered some earthquake damage several years ago. I've copied and saved the links to useful railway-related ones and shall continue through that, and some other collections that I encountered on the way.

 

The Amazon.co.uk seller apparently does not ship to colonies. The cost from Amazon.com was around £30.00 (hasty conversion) plus shipping from the US. There weren't any copies at all on Amazon.ca. E-Bay.ca turned up a few, so I ordered one from a British seller who had the best price and shipping combination. I'll have it in a month or two.

 

I'll look at the other links later.

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9 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

As someone mentioned further up this thread, BR and Bulleid EPB units were completely interchangeable on the S.E.D. ( photo from 16/3/86 below ) .......... have you tried DC Kits : https://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=131_224_139

 

Humbrol Acrylic BR Diesel Blue RC411 looks like it's meant to be standard 'Rail Blue' rather than any experimental shade.

 

The tectonic shift which moved Penge Tunnel adjacent to Beckenham Junction seems to have subsumed Penge East and Kent House stations - and my old school - while permitting restoration of the railway ..... odd that !

 

154_11.jpg.00973e88316416d3a18eedc900d1bae9.jpg

I had not come across the DC Kits link before. Unfortunately, "THIS ITEM IS NOT AVAILABLE CURRENTLY". Resin? Etched brass?

 

When did the paint change from plain blue to blue/grey? That does not look like the freshest of paint jobs, but I cannot remember seeing it. I always drove from Germany on my visits in the mid-to-late eighties and priority was always visiting family so I probably wasn't paying much attention.

 

I hope that you were not in school or anywhere close when the Great Shift occurred.

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6 hours ago, RFS said:

 

The 2-EPB consists of a motor brake  coach and a driving trailer, but a 4-EPB has two motor brake coaches so you can't just add two trailers. 2-EPBs did often work in multiple so a pair of them would provide a 4-EPB formation with no modifications - it's how I run mine. 

 

Here's a picture of a 6-EPB formation for example - https://railphotoprints.uk/p116820179/e55db9ff4

Yup. I got that from somebody's project thread somewhere on here. I have my little heart set on four-car sets, though. I'll be ordering a Bachmann 2-EPB fairly soon, and will look into my options then. I am not averse to cutting and carving.

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10 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

I have no recollection of headcode 24 - 70 was the Victoria to Orpington one. And of course Holborn Viaduct trains had odd-numbered headcodes.

 

As a terribly unimportant aside, that edifice poking out of the mist beyond the station in Wickham's picture is 1 Albemarle Road, South Eastern Division HQ from about 1968 until 1984, when BR abolished Divisions. I, and I believe SED Freightman, were wage-slaves there in its final years. The top floor seen here was occupied by the Divisional Civil Engineer and his people. I would spend time up there in the P Way Office discussing track layouts and rationalisations. It was a happy time for me. 

With the demise of the C&D parcels business I transferred from the Terminals & Cartage Section on the 3rd floor overlooking the green, to the much better positioned Freight Section on the 1st floor (both in the Western Block) which overlooked the railway.  As Oldddudders might just recall, the window sills were quite high and it was necessary to stand up to observe passing trains, which were generally nothing more than a distant rumble.  Trains that did warrant a look were the loco off the coal train which would stop directly opposite, but below, the office, while shunting via the crossover.  Also, the late running Night Ferry for which we would get a tip off from Control along with the occasional diverted or special freight, the latter generally conveying ferry vans from Dover to Willesden.  Yes, happy days indeed.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mark L Horstead said:

I had not come across the DC Kits link before. Unfortunately, "THIS ITEM IS NOT AVAILABLE CURRENTLY". Resin? Etched brass?  .....

They're injection moulded polystyrene - nice'n easy like Airfix kits ............... "THIS ITEM MAY BE AVAILABLE SECOND-HAND ELSEWHERE" - or it might be worth contacting DC Kits direct : this is the only EMU on that page that Bachmann haven't produced so there might be a chance of a re-run some time - there must be demand !

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49 minutes ago, SED Freightman said:

With the demise of the C&D parcels business I transferred from the Terminals & Cartage Section on the 3rd floor overlooking the green, to the much better positioned Freight Section on the 1st floor (both in the Western Block) which overlooked the railway.  As Oldddudders might just recall, the window sills were quite high and it was necessary to stand up to observe passing trains, which were generally nothing more than a distant rumble.  Trains that did warrant a look were the loco off the coal train which would stop directly opposite, but below, the office, while shunting via the crossover.  Also, the late running Night Ferry for which we would get a tip off from Control along with the occasional diverted or special freight, the latter generally conveying ferry vans from Dover to Willesden.  Yes, happy days indeed.

The railway was a long way down. Which made the acoustics better for passing drivers who wished to comment on Divisional HQ, by using the two-tone horn to acknowledge that intrepid railwayman R Soles. 

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On 28/04/2021 at 10:30, SED Freightman said:

8K80 1050 (SX) Bricklayers Arms to Beckenham Junction arr.1110 - Worked by class 73, headcode 1E.

8K86 1205 (SX) Beckenham Junction to Bricklayers Arms arr.1232 - Worked by class 73, headcode 1E.

The inward service (8K80) was restricted to a maximum length of 26 SLU's as it ran round in the Down Platform with the loco shunting via the mainline crossover at the Shortlands end, before hauling the train back towards New Beckenham, prior to shunting the coal depot sidings.

I am trying to work this out in my head.

 

Where is Bricklayers Arms? All that I've found via Google Maps seem to be pubs.

 

What was done to the coal at the concentration depot?

 

I've located the crossover on Side by side georeferenced maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland (nls.uk).

 

I'm also curious about the date of the map - post-war, at least, judging by the parking lot behind my grandparents' house at 2 Kelsey Square that was a residential area for the first couple of weeks of 1945 until an air-launched V1 struck.

Edited by Mark L Horstead
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2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

They're injection moulded polystyrene - nice'n easy like Airfix kits ............... "THIS ITEM MAY BE AVAILABLE SECOND-HAND ELSEWHERE" - or it might be worth contacting DC Kits direct : this is the only EMU on that page that Bachmann haven't produced so there might be a chance of a re-run some time - there must be demand !

The price seemed a little low for something of quality.

 

I shall indeed contact them.

 

I could also speed up a re-issue by the time-tested method of laboriously scratchbuilding one.

 

Thanks again

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26 minutes ago, Mark L Horstead said:

 

Where is Bricklayers Arms? All that I've found via Google Maps seem to be pubs.

 

 

Here! https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4907444,-0.073651,937m/data=!3m1!1e3 (Underneath all the units along the rather modern sounding Mandela Way)

 

If you move south eastwards you will note a lot of modern housing heading towards Paterson Park and South Bermondsey which was built on the approaches.

 

Bricklayers Arms itself started out as a passenger station - built by the London & Croydon Railway plus the South Eastern Railway as a method of escaping paying the high tolls demanded by the London and Greenwich Railway for the use of London Bridge station and its approaches. Unsurprisingly due to its distance from central London it wasn't popular with passengers and although attempts were made to market it as the station for the 'west end' it didn't last long once a deal was reached with the London & Greenwich railway which resulted in a much lower fee being paid by the Croydon and South Eastern companies.

 

Subsequently it became  a large goods depot and motive power depot the former clinging on till the early 1980s before the site was cleared. Until the Thameslink works at Bermondsey the connecting viaducts were readily visible from passing trains even after the rest of the route got built on.

 

 

 

 

Edited by phil-b259
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Bricklayers Arms or 'The Brick' a small depot in South East London. At one point had an allocation of 100 loco's. A loco shed 73B, Bricklayers goods depot and Willow Walk depot.

https://britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw055301

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bricklayers_Arms_railway_station

 

https://www.kentrail.org.uk/bricklayers_arms.htm

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28 minutes ago, Mark L Horstead said:

What was done to the coal at the concentration depot?

 

 

Coal Concentration depots were a British Railways invention and were designed to end the practice of delivering small quantities of mineral wagons to individual stations for coal merchants to empty by hand.

 

Instead one yard would be selected to be the railhead for several stations and mechanical unloading facilities provided so that hopper wagons with self discharging equipment could be used. They were relatively successful but the rapid move away from coal for heating domestic houses in favour of natural gas or electricity rapidly made them obsolete in many places - and as the need for coal shrank more and more were closed.

 

If a Coal Concentration depot was set up at Beckenham Junction then most goods yards within a 10 mile radius would have shut as by the mid 1950s domestic coal was pretty much the only traffic most suburban yards ever saw.

Edited by phil-b259
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18 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Coal Concentration depots were a British Railways invention and were designed to end the practice of delivering small quantities of mineral wagons to individual stations for coal merchants to empty by hand.

 

Instead one yard would be selected to be the railhead for several stations and mechanical unloading facilities provided so that hopper wagons with self discharging equipment could be used. They were relatively successful but the rapid move away from coal for heating domestic houses in favour of natural gas or electricity rapidly made them obsolete in many places - and as the need for coal shrank more and more were closed.

 

If a Coal Concentration depot was set up at Beckenham Junction then most goods yards within a 10 mile radius would have shut as by the mid 1950s domestic coal was pretty much the only traffic most suburban yards ever saw.

Roger. The coal would them be moved locally by road?

 

We still had a coal fire in our last house in Beckenham. I remember my father lighting it on cold mornings, and standing very close until the heat began to expand outwards.

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3 minutes ago, Mark L Horstead said:

Roger. The coal would them be moved locally by road?

 

 

 

Yup - though it was up to the individual coal merchants to organise onward transportation from the yard, not the railway.

 

The CCDs were there to improve railway operations - many coal merchants didn't like them because they put an end to the ability of being able to use the mineral wagons sat in a goods yard as a free storage facility while also making impossible for a particular merchant to guarantee the source of their coal (yes I know coal mines had been nationalised by then but I can well imagine individual merchants would have had their favourites in terms of originating pits).

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