Beckenham Junction

[Mark L Horstead]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

the ability of being able to use the mineral wagons sat in a goods yard as a free storage facility

My father used to walk to Clock House and take the train to Elmers End for work (Muirhead Instruments). I remember seeing a mineral wagon parked there once - probably one of those free storage facilities.

[hobbyhorse]

We had a spot of trouble while shunting the coal yard with the train from the brick. Other than us off the road every thing else carried on with lots of laughs from the other drivers.

My photo.

Simon

[SED Freightman]

2 hours ago, hobbyhorse said:

We had a spot of trouble while shunting the coal yard with the train from the brick. Other than us off the road every thing else carried on with lots of laughs from the other drivers.

My photo.

Simon

 

Do you have a date for that little mishap, looks as though the loco has split the points.

[The Lurker]

You've mentioned the steam hauled Golden Arrow a few times. The last time it was steam hauled was I think 11 June 1961 after which date, as Olddudders has already pointed out, there was no steam on the south eastern division. The last service was hauled by a rebuilt Bulleid light pacific "Appledore". 

[hobbyhorse]

4 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

Do you have a date for that little mishap, looks as though the loco has split the points.

The date would have been the early 80's, it was the signalman's error as he had thrown the point when we was halfway over it, it wasn't tracked so he didn't know we was on it, although he could of just look out of the box.

 

Simon

[Mark L Horstead]

3 hours ago, The Lurker said:

You've mentioned the steam hauled Golden Arrow a few times. The last time it was steam hauled was I think 11 June 1961 after which date, as Olddudders has already pointed out, there was no steam on the south eastern division. The last service was hauled by a rebuilt Bulleid light pacific "Appledore". 

I was a little over five, then, so that is in line with my early memories.

 

My grandparents encouraged my interest in trains, and may have caused it.

 

I want to depict the times that I remember, even if only vaguely, so picking 1961 or 1960 instead of 1962 as my starting year and ending at 1972 still works. My intent would be to run trains depicting more narrow time periods within that overall decade-plus, so tail-end-of-steam and all-green EMUs, the changeover from green to blue, and perhaps all-blue.

 

My research of and reading about earlier periods and some of the models now available have me wondering if I could depict those by swapping signs and other fixtures and horse-drawn vehicles for cars, though, but that would come much later, if ever.

[Mark L Horstead]

18 hours ago, Rich Papper said:

A 4-EPB can be bashed together for a reasonable price using Replica bits. It's on my to do list one day inspired by this: 

Rich

I looked at that last night, and that might be the route that I take. And the parts are available and the prices are good.

[Mark L Horstead]

2 hours ago, hobbyhorse said:

The date would have been the early 80's, it was the signalman's error as he had thrown the point when we was halfway over it, it wasn't tracked so he didn't know we was on it, although he could of just look out of the box.

 

Simon

I thank you for joining in.

 

I've been trying to work out the shunting moves, for whichever way I end up depicting the yard.

 

I see the train arriving and being dropped by the locomotive, which would then cross over just east of the High Street/Southend Road bridge (the crossover no longer exists), run back and take the line to New Beckenham, cross back over just northwest of the signal box (whose windows did not see quite enough use, it would seem), then collect the hoppers, then pull them back towards New Beckenham on the down line.

 

Am I close?

 

Where would the hoppers be dropped?

 

How are they pushed into the yard? I can see no easy route. Eastward towards the northern-most passenger track (Platform 4?), then westward along the lengthy siding (head shunt?) parallel to the New Beckenham route, then back into the yard? It's not easy working through this on a too-small screen...

 

That seems to explain why the train departed back to Bricklayers Arms via New Beckenham.

 

How long did this take? Would regular trains be held back to permit this, or could the moves be squeezed into the normal schedule?

 

And when was the signal box closed and demolished?

[phil-b259]

11 minutes ago, Mark L Horstead said:

And when was the signal box closed and demolished?

 

It was closed in the early 1980s, control of the area passing to the Victoria Area Signalling Centre (VSE) confusingly located at Clapham Junction.

[Mark L Horstead]

Roger.

 

Thanks.

 

Was it a unique building, or a standard design? I'd really like to be able to track down a drawing, or an aerial photograph. I only have one ground-level shot so far, and will be ordering another soon, which should give me all four sides but I'd like to know what the top of the roof looked like, even if no potential viewer would.

 

The photograph about to be acquired shows what, to me, is the "back side", facing the route to New Beckenham. It's partially obscured by shrubberies, but that side won't be seen (much) once on a layout.

[hobbyhorse]

46 minutes ago, Mark L Horstead said:

I thank you for joining in.

 

I've been trying to work out the shunting moves, for whichever way I end up depicting the yard.

 

I see the train arriving and being dropped by the locomotive, which would then cross over just east of the High Street/Southend Road bridge (the crossover no longer exists), run back and take the line to New Beckenham, cross back over just northwest of the signal box (whose windows did not see quite enough use, it would seem), then collect the hoppers, then pull them back towards New Beckenham on the down line.

 

Am I close?

 

Where would the hoppers be dropped?

 

How are they pushed into the yard? I can see no easy route. Eastward towards the northern-most passenger track (Platform 4?), then westward along the lengthy siding (head shunt?) parallel to the New Beckenham route, then back into the yard? It's not easy working through this on a too-small screen...

 

That seems to explain why the train departed back to Bricklayers Arms via New Beckenham.

 

How long did this take? Would regular trains be held back to permit this, or could the moves be squeezed into the normal schedule?

 

And when was the signal box closed and demolished?

I'll dig out my old books that contain our turns, hopefully it's got the Beck Jun job.

 

Simon

[Mark L Horstead]

18 minutes ago, hobbyhorse said:

I'll dig out my old books that contain our turns, hopefully it's got the Beck Jun job.

 

Simon

Thanks tons.

 

No rush - I'm still a few years away from needing that, I think.

 

It looks like you are going to have a more fun weekend than me - I had a quick look at the Bredgar & Wormshill Light Railway site, and will revisit for longer soon.

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, Mark L Horstead said:

My research of and reading about earlier periods and some of the models now available have me wondering if I could depict those by swapping signs and other fixtures and horse-drawn vehicles for cars, though, but that would come much later, if ever.

Many ( green ) railway signs lasted well into your period - but not horsepower I just about remember one of the local milk rounds ( we had a choice ! ) having a horse and milk float in - presumably - the mid fifties but an electric float soon replaced the 'oss. ( My current - no choice now - milkman went back to electric power a few years ago.)

Edited April 30, 2021 by Wickham Green too

[SED Freightman]

22 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Yup - though it was up to the individual coal merchants to organise onward transportation from the yard, not the railway.

 

The CCDs were there to improve railway operations - many coal merchants didn't like them because they put an end to the ability of being able to use the mineral wagons sat in a goods yard as a free storage facility while also making impossible for a particular merchant to guarantee the source of their coal (yes I know coal mines had been nationalised by then but I can well imagine individual merchants would have had their favourites in terms of originating pits).

The introduction of CCD's was also of benefit to the National Coal Board who were able to despatch blocks of wagons to a single location with one customer (latterly Charringtons at Beckenham Jn), rather than having to load single wagons to possibly two or three small merchants located in a traditional goods yard.  Some of the larger CCD's were I think operated by subsiduaries of the NCB such as the Southern Depot Co. and Coal Mechanisation Ltd.  As far as local merchants were concerned they basically had three choices if located in a railway goods yard where wagonload services were to be discontinued, a) relocate to a non railway site and receive coal by road from wherever they liked, b) stay put and receive coal by road from wherever they liked, but pay BR a fee for each ton of fuel received by road, or c) receive coal by road from the nearest CCD, which might be cheaper due to the much larger volumes moved via the CCD or they might receive a rebate per ton to cover the cost of road transport from the CCD.

[Mark L Horstead]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Many ( green ) railway signs lasted well into your period - but not horsepower I just about remember one of the local milk rounds ( we had a choice ! ) having a horse and milk float in - presumably - the mid fifties but an electric float soon replaced the 'oss. ( My current - no choice now - milkman went back to electric power a few years ago.)

I don't remember horse-drawn vehicles in Beckenham, but there were still some horse-drawn milk carts in Stratford when we arrived in 1965. I cannot remember when the last one disappeared.

 

I do remember the electric milk floats, though, and constant warnings about them at school.

 

I was referring to horses for including a much-earlier period as a possibility. I'm rather liking the SECR products now on the market.

[SED Freightman]

On 30/04/2021 at 17:55, Mark L Horstead said:

I thank you for joining in.

 

I've been trying to work out the shunting moves, for whichever way I end up depicting the yard.

 

I see the train arriving and being dropped by the locomotive, which would then cross over just east of the High Street/Southend Road bridge (the crossover no longer exists), run back and take the line to New Beckenham, cross back over just northwest of the signal box (whose windows did not see quite enough use, it would seem), then collect the hoppers, then pull them back towards New Beckenham on the down line.

 

Am I close?

 

Where would the hoppers be dropped?

 

How are they pushed into the yard? I can see no easy route. Eastward towards the northern-most passenger track (Platform 4?), then westward along the lengthy siding (head shunt?) parallel to the New Beckenham route, then back into the yard? It's not easy working through this on a too-small screen...

 

That seems to explain why the train departed back to Bricklayers Arms via New Beckenham.

 

How long did this take? Would regular trains be held back to permit this, or could the moves be squeezed into the normal schedule?

 

And when was the signal box closed and demolished?

I think you are correct regarding the run round and shunt move via platform 4 for the arriving train, this would take around 10-15 minutes from arriving in the Down Platform (No.3) and arriving in the Headshunt, assuming not only a suitable gap in Down trains, but also a gap in traffic on the Up Line for the loco to run round.  Once in the Headshunt, the train could be shunted in and out of the two CCD sidings as required, possibly the first move would be to set back and attach any empties, then place them out of the way in Platform 4 before positioning the loaded wagons as required. The return train could run directly from Platform 4 to the New Beckenham Spur and back to Bricklayers Arms, alternatively it may have been possible to run directly towards Kent House if required. 

[Mark L Horstead]

I ordered some Beckenham Junction photographs from The Transport Library this morning. All but one are digital. The one of the back side of the signal box was not available in that form.

 

I'd like to use them to generate some more discussion here, but do not wish to violate copyrights or generate any other form of offence. Is it alright to post the links to the advertising samples on their site?

 

One shows a Dance Hall brake van in 1949, with slightly lighter patches of paint where the "S" and "R" would have been, and one half of a private-owner wagon. I understand that at least most of these vans would be in departmental service by the early sixties, but would any have still been in regular use? I haven't come across a definite answer, but probably don't yet know where to look.

 

I also stumbled across some photographs that I copied from the interweb a few years ago while I was putting a Powerpoint tour guide together for my daughter, who was planning to visit there but never did. A couple of them show the last signal box while still under construction and with the old one, still in operation, on its eastern side. I think that I have enough photographs now, except for the top of the roof, but basic dimensions would be nice. There are also some teasing views of the goods yard, but too fuzzy to be of much value.

 

I found three Britannia Pacific 4EPB sets on E-Bay last night as well - a little pricey, though.  So far, the Replica Railways EPB parts still seem to be my best choice.

[Mark L Horstead]

1 hour ago, SED Freightman said:

I think you are correct regarding the run round and shunt move via platform 4 for the arriving train, this would take around 10-15 minutes from arriving in the Down Platform (No.3) and arriving in the Headshunt, assuming not only a suitable gap in Down trains, but also a gap in traffic on the Up Line for the loco to run round.  Once in the Headshunt, the train could be shunted in and out of the two CCD sidings as required, possibly the first move would be to set back and attach any empties, then place them out of the way in Platform 4 before positioning the loaded wagons as required. The return train could run directly from Platform 4 to the New Beckenham Spur and back to Bricklayers Arms, alternatively it may have been possible to run directly towards Kent House if required. 

Thank-you.

 

I'd not considered the empties in my exercise, but that makes sense. Where would the most likely place to drop the train be on arrival for the run-around move? I don't think that it would be done right in the station due to the location of the third rails, but there is not a lot of room at the west end of the platforms, either. I'll have to pay strict attention to the third rail locations on my layout (as I would have done anyway) to ensure reasonable safety for my miniature crews.

[73c]

The person responsible for uncoupling/coupling up would have gone 'in between ' from the platform side, no need to go near the juice rail.

Edited May 1, 2021 by 73c

[Mark L Horstead]

Roger.

 

Thanks.

[Mark L Horstead]

Lost out on bids for a blue 2EPB and a used 4CEP on Evil Bay, but am watching another used 4CEP (green). I'd like a blue/grey one as well, but am not seeing any.

 

My digital slides from The Transport Library have arrived, so I'll look through those tonight.

 

I am going to plan out a parts buy from Replica Railways for a 4EPB kitbash, and see what my best options would be for donor coaches. I think that Replica Railways bodies and chassis would be the best and cheapest way to go rather than full Bachmann ones. Comments and recommendations for that would be most welcome.

[Mark L Horstead]

I received my digital photographs from The Transport Library on Monday and began looking at them. They are, overall, very helpful and interesting. They are good quality and allow me to zoom in quite a bit. More zoomability would be nice, of course, as would colour, but I'll take what I can get. I am very pleased with them, and the service.

 

I will only post the links to the advertising versions on The Transport Library website, to avoid (hopefully) any copyright problems, for discussion. Please feel free to correct any terminological or other errors.

 

British Railways Station View at Beckenham Junction in 1954 - General View East from Rectory Road - Lens of Sutton Dennis Cullum Collection shows a brake van on the left-hand side, some buildings in the yard and beyond, what appears to be a mobile crane at the back of the yard between a goods van and the massive (to me) starter signal array, some small trolleys up against the buffers,  point rodding, and the water tower half-way up the photograph on the right-hand edge.

 

I have yet to research the brake van, or look for a suitable model, preferably in kit form.

 

British Railways Signal at Beckenham Junction in 1949 - up MAIN starting signals, ( back of) - Lens of Sutton Dennis Cullum Collection shows much the same, less point rodding and water tower which are out of view. The mobile crane is in the same location but with five-year-fresher paint. The brake van is the uneven-planked Pillbox version. Mine, still bobbing around somewhere on the North Atlantic, is the regular-planked version. Perhaps I'll order another, for variety. I was pleased to see this one.

 

The most obvious change in British Railways Steam Locomotive Class 5MT 73081 at Beckenham Junction in 1959 - 15/05/1959 - Dr T Gough is the introduction of the colour light signal. I have yet to begin researching signals, but I am guessing that this one is both a starting signal and route indicator. The end of that platform seems to attract a variety of junk. Point rodding is also gone.  There is something between the rails of the nearest track sprouting a mass of cables and what appears to be a point motor on the other side of the third rail operating a single slip, and a couple more further up. I hadn't picked the single slip out on Google Maps Satellite view so I either missed it or it's now gone. The new signal box is peeking out from behind the old which, as the signals and point mechanisms have all been changed, could be only days away from demolition.

 

I am both happy and disappointed by that change - the the old signal would have looked very impressive in model form but the thought of having to scratchbuild it is more than a little daunting, and I know nothing about point rodding and there will be a lot of points.

 

If somebody could "point" (weak, I know) me to a source for suitable models of those motors I'd truly appreciate it, as I'd be hunting through websites for longer than it would take me to build the layout.

 

No more old signal box, but there doesn't seem to be any room for it between the new one and the tracks in British Rail Station View at Beckenham Junction in 1978 - View to junction from Rectory Road - Lens of Sutton Dennis Cullum Collection. That's probably just a photographic effect. The colour light signal (hidden behind the watermark) is a different type, and somebody's finally cleaned up the mess at the end of the platform.

 

More in a day or two...

Edited May 6, 2021 by Mark L Horstead
No matter how much I proofread, I always find some minor errors after I post.

[73c]

The mobile crane is possibly one of these - https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/628041110509966768/

Earlier photo showing the new box in 1954 - https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=36407&search=Nr.+Beckenham+Junction&category_id=64&page=5

Back of the new box, the front similar to that of Hither Green - https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=120750

Item in the 4 foot is known as a 'spider' it's to do with the 3rd rail, is the shorter and easy answer.

Peco dummy point motors SL-47

Resignalled around 72-73' I think

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

8 hours ago, Mark L Horstead said:

....... a brake van on the left-hand side,...... and the water tower half-way up the photograph on the right-hand edge.  .......

I think the brake van's an L.N.W.R. type and the water tower - well, it's a water tower : - 

 

 

[Mark L Horstead]

7 hours ago, 73c said:

The mobile crane is possibly one of these - https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/628041110509966768/

Earlier photo showing the new box in 1954 - https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=36407&search=Nr.+Beckenham+Junction&category_id=64&page=5

Back of the new box, the front similar to that of Hither Green - https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=120750

Item in the 4 foot is known as a 'spider' it's to do with the 3rd rail, is the shorter and easy answer.

Peco dummy point motors SL-47

Resignalled around 72-73' I think

 

Excellent.

 

Thanks.

 

It will be a while before I have need of such a crane, but now I know what to hunt down.

 

The D1 photograph is one  of those that I received on Monday, but I lacked time to post any more last night. I also note that there is a pile of sand or something at the end of the platform in that photograph. It seems to have been a popular dumping ground.

 

The backside photograph of the signal box is also enroute. For some reason, it was only available as a print. All of the others that I ordered were available in digital form.

 

Thanks for the tip regarding Hither Green. I may order that photograph as well. The style is similar, but it's not the same. I have some other photographs of the Beckenham Junction box but have to re-examine them. I'm pretty certain that I have views of all four sides (or will have very soon), although none are head-on so determining basic dimensions may be a bit of a challenge. I may have a slide or two of my own from my 1972 trip but have to have a root through some stuff to find that box of slides.

 

Roger the rest.

 

This has been a good day at work, as well...