Beckenham Junction

[Mark L Horstead]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I think the brake van's an L.N.W.R. type and the water tower - well, it's a water tower : - 

 

Where was that water tower?

 

The photograph is also useful for the junk around it.

 

Thanks again

[phil-b259]

14 hours ago, Mark L Horstead said:

There is something between the rails of the nearest track sprouting a mass of cables

 

That is called an 'Impedance bond' (with associated cabling etc).

 

It is necessary because under 3rd rail electrification systems the traction current gets passed from the train motors back into the running rails in order that it may return to the substation.

 

So you MUST provide a way for the electric traction current to pass round the insulated block joints which are of course necessary separate the rails into individual track circuits

 

Impedance bonds work based on the principle that 3rd rail traction currents are DC but the currents used in the track circuits are of the AC type - traditional 50Hz but from the 1970s further types have been developed which use much higher frequencies.

 

The impedance bond is basically a big transformer which is tuned (like you do to a radio) by the use of capacitors (in lineside location cases) to make it appear as a short circuit to DC traction currents allowing them to be collected from both running rails and be passed on to the next track section  while at the same time appearing as a non conductive material to AC track circuit current thus allowing the track circuit to work.

 

In the picture https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=127523&search=Beckenham+Junction you only have a single impedance bond because on the track through the platforms both running rails are used to carry the traction return, The track circuit on the other side of the block joints however has pointwork in it so an alternative configuration has to be used with only the right hand running rail carrying traction current.

 

Where both running rails on both sides of insulated block joints are carrying traction current then you will need 'back to back' impedance bonds.

 

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Mark L Horstead said:

Where was that water tower?

 ...... half-way up the photograph on the right-hand edge.

[Mark L Horstead]

19 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

That is called an 'Impedance bond' (with associated cabling etc).

 

Thanks.

 

I will understand all of that someday, after reading it over slowly a few more times.

 

I'm better with plumbing than electricity, as I can see the leaks.

 

I've always enjoyed the side-lessons in this hobby - always more to learn.

[phil-b259]

15 hours ago, Mark L Horstead said:

 

 

If somebody could "point" (weak, I know) me to a source for suitable models of those motors I'd truly appreciate it, as I'd be hunting through websites for longer than it would take me to build the layout.

 

 

 

I  am not aware of any model point machines which date from that time period. Peco do a more modern* one (the HW100 / HW200 dating from the 1980s I think) which you could use if merely after something 'representative' as it were.

 

That said you could always have a go at making your own, I cannot determine if the one in the pictured matches any of these https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/84830-moving-the-points-hands-rods-wires-and-machines/

 

 

One thing to be careful of though is placement! So many people end up mounting their Peco ones wrongly  - the sticking out bits at the sides need to line up with the gaps in the sleepers are as they represent covers hiding the operating / detector / lock rods as seen in the attached  photos

 

*https://peco-uk.com/products/dummy-point-motor-2

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by phil-b259

[Mark L Horstead]

4 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

 ...... half-way up the photograph on the right-hand edge.

So close enough, then...

 

Another very useful photograph.

[Wickham Green too]

Couldn't get much closer ...... and details of the houses on Rectory Road too - not to mention the period Austin A40 ! [ I think that photo is 1972 - judging by other shots on the film. Nope : 1969 or '70 further from the end of the 'Arrer' than I thought ! ]

Edited May 6, 2021 by Wickham Green too
correction

[Mark L Horstead]

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I  am not aware of any model point machines which date from that time period. Peco do a more modern* one (the HW100 / HW200 dating from the 1980s I think) which you could use if merely after something 'representative' as it were.

 

That said you could always have a go at making your own, I cannot determine if the one in the pictured matches any of these https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/84830-moving-the-points-hands-rods-wires-and-machines/

 

 

One thing to be careful of though is placement! So many people end up mounting their Peco ones wrongly  - the sticking out bits at the sides need to line up with the gaps in the sleepers are as they represent covers hiding the operating rods! 

 

*Dummy Point Motor – PECO (peco-uk.com)

 

 

Again, my thanks. That helps a lot.

 

I've done some casting in the past, so could make a bunch once I know what to build. I'll look through those links later.

 

At this point, it's hard to keep up with everything flooding in - much more than I'd hoped to receive, but I am not surprised given the quality of help and information that I had already seen in other threads here.

[Mark L Horstead]

2 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Couldn't get much closer ...... and details of the houses on Rectory Road too - not to mention the period Austin A40 ! [ I think that photo is 1972 - judging by other shots on the film.]

Yes, although time and space will not permit modelling the houses, and there won't be much road space, either, for cars.

 

At least one bus on the bridge, and another elsewhere, and perhaps a couple of cars.

 

My father's first car was a well-used Vauxhall with a hand-crank starter. We were going somewhere one day, probably 1959 as I don't think that my sister had been born then, and, when I hopped into the back seat I saw a large hole in the floor. My mother went back into the house, and my father drove it to a junk yard instead. The next was a second (at least)-hand Austin, again with a hand-crank. We had that until moving to Canada in 1965, whereupon he bought a 1963 Ford Galaxie complete with electric starter and powered windows - a huge leap forward in technology and size.

 

I have a slide of the Austin, and plan to track down a model of one, if such exists.

[phil-b259]

13 minutes ago, Mark L Horstead said:

Thanks.

 

I will understand all of that someday, after reading it over slowly a few more times.

 

I'm better with plumbing than electricity, as I can see the leaks.

 

I've always enjoyed the side-lessons in this hobby - always more to learn.

 

Its complicated - particularly if you have never studied electrical engineering at a highish level and thus been introduced to the brain hurting subject that is AC (as in Alternating Current) Theory!

 

But it all comes down to the fact that S&T engineers want to chop the track into lots of little sections so they can prove where trains are yet the people involved in powering the trains want to use as many running rails as possible to get the  electricity back to the substation once the trains have used it.

 

4 rail systems (like London Underground) get round this problem quite neatly - 2 rails supply power and 2 other completely separate ones are what the train runs on / the S&T use.

[Mark L Horstead]

Yes...

 

That much I understand.

 

I saw the second photograph that you just added to your previous post, and will compare that to my photographs in a little while.

 

Is the accident report from which the first photograph was taken available online?

 

As a former military helicopter pilot, I am always interested in how and why things happen.

[phil-b259]

32 minutes ago, Mark L Horstead said:

 

Is the accident report from which the first photograph was taken available online?

 

 

Yup - have a look at the text at the bottom of the photo (its from RAIB report apparently)

 

I think its this one https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/411268/100318_R042010_Greenhill_Upper_Jcn.pdf

 

In fact https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/rail-accident-investigation-branch is an interesting site to browse anyway- there is an awful lot you can learn about railway operation from their reports.

 

However I included the photo merely to give an idea of how the machine is fitted - like I said there are an awful lot of layouts which have the Peco accessory fitted in a way its physically impossible to install in real life

 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by phil-b259

[SED Freightman]

2 hours ago, Mark L Horstead said:

 

Where was that water tower?

 

The water tower is marked as 'Tank' on the plan I posted on 28/4.

Edited May 6, 2021 by SED Freightman
Re-worded.

[Mark L Horstead]

Thanks.

 

I meant the specific one in the photograph. I was not sure if it was the Beckenham one or a very similar one. I have memories of it, but not clear enough to pick it out in a line-up.

[SED Freightman]

1 hour ago, Mark L Horstead said:

Thanks.

 

I meant the specific one in the photograph. I was not sure if it was the Beckenham one or a very similar one. I have memories of it, but not clear enough to pick it out in a line-up.

Ah, I see.  It certainly looks like Beckenham Junction with the the three tracks in front (Platform 1 and two sidings) and the terraced houses on the other side of Rectory Road.

[bécasse]

Headcode 24 a couple of pages back was Bickley and London Victoria via Herne Hill so seen regularly during peak hours at Beckenham Junction. If the Charing Cross-Hayes via Lewisham service had been diverted to Beckenham Junction (as a result of engineering works, flooding at Clock House or w.h.y.) it would have carried head code 20 and, more importantly, it would have been in the Mid-Kent bay rather than on the up road.

 

4-EPBs (of both varieties) took over the suburban services via Kent House from the June TT change in 1959, prior to which they had been a right old mix of 4-SUBs, some Bulleid (including the "funny" 4377), some Shebas, some of both types of the 1925 sets and some of the late-formed 45xx ex-LBSCR overhead sets. There were also a few 2x2-NOLs. The Gillingham/Maidstone East trains (which didn't stop at BJ) had been formed exclusively of 2-HALs (including some of the Bulleid units) but were gradually changed over to 2-HAPs of both varieties as 1959 progressed becoming exclusively 2-HAP by the timetable change (when, of course, CEPs and BEPs became the norm on Kent Coast and a few (via Chatham only) Dover boat trains. Boat trains via Tonbridge or Maidstone East remained steam-hauled (or occasionally diesel-hauled by a Crompton) until June 1961. Hastings diesel units were seen very occasionally on engineering work diversions and also in the few days after the Lewisham accident of 4.12.1957.

Edited May 6, 2021 by bécasse

[Mark L Horstead]

2 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

Ah, I see.  It certainly looks like Beckenham Junction with the the three tracks in front (Platform 1 and two sidings) and the terraced houses on the other side of Rectory Road.

As Wickham Green too teasingly confirmed.

[Mark L Horstead]

4 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Yup - have a look at the text at the bottom of the photo (its from RAIB report apparently)

 

I think its this one https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/411268/100318_R042010_Greenhill_Upper_Jcn.pdf

 

In fact https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/rail-accident-investigation-branch is an interesting site to browse anyway- there is an awful lot you can learn about railway operation from their reports.

 

However I included the photo merely to give an idea of how the machine is fitted - like I said there are an awful lot of layouts which have the Peco accessory fitted in a way its physically impossible to install in real life

 

 

 

I did not understand much of the technical aspect of that report, but every form of exposure helps. It's clear that it could have been a lot worse, though.

 

And I like to get things as right as possible, so the photographs and explanation certainly help.

[Mark L Horstead]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

Headcode 24 a couple of pages back was Bickley and London Victoria via Herne Hill so seen regularly during peak hours at Beckenham Junction. If the Charing Cross-Hayes via Lewisham service had been diverted to Beckenham Junction (as a result of engineering works, flooding at Clock House or w.h.y.) it would have carried head code 20 and, more importantly, it would have been in the Mid-Kent bay rather than on the up road.

Thank-you for that. I shall want to get the headcodes as correct as I can.

[Mark L Horstead]

Narrowly missed a second green Bachmann 4CEP auction on Evil Bay earlier today but got another one a few minutes later for only a few pounds more. Shipping and import fees add half of the cost of the item itself again.

 

“Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.”

- Oscar Wilde

[hobbyhorse]

Mark, this is the turn which dates from 1980.

We used platform 4 to make up the departing train if the platform wasn't used to birth a juicer.

As the headhunt was on a curve we used whistles to control movements, as you can see we didn't have long to shunt so it was very straightforward.

 

Simon 

[Wickham Green too]

14 hours ago, bécasse said:

....... If the Charing Cross-Hayes via Lewisham service had been diverted to Beckenham Junction (as a result of engineering works, flooding at Clock House or w.h.y.) it would have carried head code 20 and, more importantly, it would have been in the Mid-Kent bay rather than on the up road. ........

Indeed, the indicator on the platform did proclaim 'Victoria' .... 

 

..... but then we turned right ....

 

.... and I got off at Waterloo East.

[Mark L Horstead]

On 06/05/2021 at 06:03, Wickham Green too said:

I think the brake van's an L.N.W.R. type and the water tower - well, it's a water tower : - 

 

 

 

A few questions about this water tower, if I may:

 

What was the purpose of the door/window like openings?

 

What is the purpose of the long bar across them?

 

Were they once larger and then partially bricked in?

 

Was the far side the same?

 

Is there any significance to the change in the shade of the mortar on the lower have of the brick portion?

 

Is whatever is covering the roof actually part of the roof or just something draped over it?

 

Would the roof have originally been open like the Peco model?

 

Is the ladder attached? there appears to be something tying it to the brickwork where the ladder crosses the upper window of the house behind.

 

The brick part of Water Tower - LCC B 00-20 is the closest match that I could find in kit or ready-built form, but scratchbuilding would be almost as easy. There's a Dapol kit with a similar tank but I do not know if the sizes are compatible, but, again, it should be simple to make my own.

 

What are the gravestone-like things stacked to the right of the oil drums?

 

Does anybody make brick arches suitable for the door/window bits?

 

I was looking through websites about old Austins last night, seeing if I could find my father's in one. There were a few likely candidates generally from the late 1930s. I have a photograph - somewhere.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Mark L Horstead
Additional question.

[Mark L Horstead]

10 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

..... but then we turned right ....

 

 

What's the "20" at the far end of the platform?

[Mark L Horstead]

13 hours ago, hobbyhorse said:

Mark, this is the turn which dates from 1980.

We used platform 4 to make up the departing train if the platform wasn't used to birth a juicer.

As the headhunt was on a curve we used whistles to control movements, as you can see we didn't have long to shunt so it was very straightforward.

 

Simon 

"As you can see..."

 

I wish that I could.

 

I've printed that photograph, full-sized, and can decipher some abbreviations like H(ither) G(ree)n Dep(arture) - or Dep(ot)?, D(ow)n S(i)d(i)ngs, Stew(art) L(a)n(e), etcetera, but...

 

I have no idea what the notations in the first column are, much of the second column baffles me, and the third and fourth appear to be times - arrival in the third and departure in the fourth? What is the significance of the // between what I take to be hour and minutes, and why does that only appear in some?

 

It's probably all obvious to many/most here, but I've waited and waited to see if anybody else asks before I out myself as the dummy and nobody has.