Wagon / van weight

[Sol]

What I sent to Oxford Rail yesterday via e-mail - so far, no response

 

Today I received two  different type O Toad brakes vans from Rails of Sheffield , very nice indeed but my question is -
 how does one get inside them to add more weight as they are too light in my opinion as they are 42gm / 1.5 oz
whereas I run similar brake vans at 60gm/ 2 oz which is even less
 than  the recommended practices of the NMRA
https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/rp-20.1.pdf
or the AMRA https://amra.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/AMRA-Carriage-Mass-standard.pdf

 

 

so my question is to RMWebbers , what are the recommendations for UK model rail rolling stock  weights  ?- even DOGA is missing this information

[Miss Prism]

50g is a respectable weight for a 4-wheeled thing in 4mm scale.

 

[Il Grifone]

The NMRA recommended weight is far too heavy IMHO. 3 point suspension is a much better cure for wobble* etc. than too much lead.

*American rolling stock is very prone to this.

[The Johnster]

I would contend that, within a range of reasonable all-up vehicle weights, the most important thing is to make all axle loads as equal as possible.  This means that if you standardise on, say, 30g for a 4 wheel vehicle, then a bogie needs to be ballasted to make it 60g and a 6 wheeler (assuming the centre wheels actually carry weight to 45g.  This means that your LMS period 1 12 wheel dining car should come out at 90g.  I'm not saying that axle load should be 15g, just using that as an example. 

 

Curing wobble is indeed better done by 3 point suspension but for those of us using RTR or with large fleets this is expensive and time consuming.  Wobble results from not having all the wheels of a rigid, uncompensated, vehicle or bogie sitting level on the track, and is one of the reasons it is important to pay careful attention to the level and smoothness of your track when you are laying it, and to ensure that your baseboards are rigid and going to remain so.  But it isn't really affected by overall or axle weight. 

 

RTR are pretty good, but kit built wagons need to be constructed carefully to ensure that they are square and level, and that all wheels are level and at the same height.  Standing the wagon on a sheet of glass or a mirror will show up any discrepancy, and you will be able to rock the wagon slightly.  I use Lego bricks as formers to align wagon sides and to square sideframes to the kit floor (they are handy for all sorts of models that need to be square and true, such as buildings, and a selection is a handy thing to have around).

 

The advantage of standardising as far as possible on an axle weight is that wagons that are too heavy will cause derailments simply by the forces they impart to lighter wagons, especially propelling and most especially through reverse curves.  But, conversely, a wagon that is too light will be prone to being shoved around by it's companions and equally prone to derailments.  Being pulled inward, or pushed outward, on sharp curves, and buffers riding up over each other and locking are typical of the causes of such derailments.  Standardised axle weights will aid reliable running by eliminating the difference in heavy or light wagon behaviour that leads to such problems.

 

Good running is brought about by a combination of several factors; equal axle loadings, careful track laying on solid rigid baseboards, curves of as large a radius as possible especially if you are using scale couplings, a standard coupling bar height and distance protruding beyond the buffers if you are using tension locks, smooth driving technique, and reliable clean electrical supply between the rails and the motor so that your trains are not unreasonably jerked about.  Ballasting your vehicles for good running is part of this, as is ensuring that all wheelsets are to a standard back to back measurement (the exact measurement is less important than it being identical for all wheelsets and will run through your turnouts), ensuring that all wheelsets run freely (for which I recommend that any sets with plastic wheels or axle pinpoint ends by eliminated from your layout), using brass bearings where needed (kits and such).

 

Some wagons are particularly hard to bring in to line, especially plastic kit conflats, but the worst are probably lowmacs.  These are almost impossible to ballast adequately for running unloaded, and it is probable that the solution to this is a cast metal body for such a model, which nobody does AFAIK.

[Steamport Southport]

A Mars a day helps you work, rest and play....

 

I was always told that about 2 ounces was the recommended amount which was the same weight as an old style Mars Bar. Handy to know as many people had balanced scales rather than ones with a display. So Mars Bar on one side and your wagon on the other.

 

But I feel that it's trying to get a uniform weight that's most important. So if you've got any overly light ones, a bit of weight to make them the same as the others.

 

Having a few whitemetal wagons they aren't that much heavier than normal RTR. That might have been the case a few years ago when they were solid lumps, but most of mine from Geen, 51L, ABS and the like are about the same weight as Hornby, Bachmann, Mainline, etc. wagons.

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

I have a pair of K’s whitemetal A31 auto trailers that are pretty heavy lumps.  They are free running enough, but a Bachmann 4575 struggles a bit on the flat of I use them as a two coach set.  They are best coupled to the loco with a Hornby A30 at the other end; even then rough driving can induce slipping from the loco!

[Kylestrome]

On 28/04/2021 at 03:18, Sol said:

how does one get inside them to add more weight as they are too light in my opinion as they are 42gm

 

If it already weighs that much it shouldn't be too difficult to glue the extra 18gm (eg. pieces of lead sheet) under the chassis.

 

David

[Sol]

There is limited room underneath that is why I want to get inside the brake van.

[Miss Prism]

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/135507-warren-branch/&do=findComment&comment=4056544

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Miss Prism

[Steamport Southport]

I think it was covered in the thread. At least one person got them into pieces.

 

Click on the bold lettering to go to the post.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[Kylestrome]

3 hours ago, Sol said:

There is limited room underneath that is why I want to get inside the brake van.

 

There's not a lot of room under a Hornby BR brake van but there's enough to get it up to 62g.

Is there less room under your Toad?  

 

David

 

 

[Sol]

That Hornby Brake van is a 20 ton with a longer wheel base the the 16 ton unit from Oxford Rail which has limited space  - may get a few grams but not enough to warrant the effort of cutting extremely small slices of lead sheet.

[CCGWR]

Check how they run first. If they run fine, then leave them alone.

 

[The Johnster]

Check how they run first?  If they run fine, then leave them alone?  You have just described a form of modelling that is anathematic to me; no chance to mess things up, no chance to spoil everything, having a railway that runs perfectly, where's the fun in that...

 

'Check how they run' needs to include hauling an propelling them everywhere on the layout to ascertain that they will run reliably under any circumstances, including with the wagon coupled next to the loco with a heavy train behind/in front, and with any long rigid wheelbase vehicles to check for buffer lock if you model European origin stock.  My test runs, on quite a small BLT, usually take about half an hour if no issues come to light; I monitor running, stability, coupling performance and buffer lock.  It is, I reckon, time well invested and the pay back is worth the effort.  My running is not perfect. but is pretty good with reasonably careful driving. 

 

I use James' Trains 3D printed NEM couplings for my permanently coupled and left on the layout mineral rakes, and these are a little stiff, so proper ballasting is particularly important for these vehicles, especially the empty rake.

Edited April 30, 2021 by The Johnster

[Compound2632]

Pull the buffers out. 

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Compound2632

[DCB]

Interesting,  I just weighed a cast chassis plastic body Hornby Dublo SD  5 plank open wagon at 49g.   I always thoughtb they were heavy but they reverse at speed over 2ft radius reverse curves so maybe H/D got it right.

[Il Grifone]

H/D always got it right! (well almost - they messed up towards the end. (Due to the loss of Frank Hornby?)

 

I would agree that vehicles need to be about the same weight.

Wobbly bogie vehicles are easy  enough to cure. Acquire some small round head nails, drill two holes in one bogie equidistant from the pivot on the transversal axis, and force nails in so that the vehicle sits vertically on the nail heads. (it may be necessary to chamfer the original bearing surface so that the bogie will rock along the vehicle longitudinal axis. In 995 of cases it will now be steady as a rock. Some obstinate cases need the pivots tightening as they are too sloppy. I have a Bachmann box car that was a real PITA, but won in the end

I am assuming round and non eccentric wheels of course. I cured a tender yesterday by cleaning the crud off the wheel tyres. There wasn't much, but it was in the curve between tyre and flange.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Il Grifone