Correct GNR passenger livery colour for loco side-tank tops (in particular on a C2)

[Chas Levin]

Hello all, can anyone please confirm the correct colour for the tops (the horizontal upper areas) of the side tanks on a GNR C2 (later the LNER C12)? I'm currently building a London Road Models C2 and approaching the point where I need to find out.

 

I have various colour photos and drawings of locos in this livery - both from online research and from books - but none showing the tops of the side tanks, as they're all taken from eye level and neither E F Carter's nor Nigel Digby's books on liveries mention the tank tops.

 

The Hornby GNR liveried N2 has them in black - is that correct? It looks right from above, because the upper surfaces of the footplate are (correctly) black too.

 

I know that N2 No. 1744 is preserved in GNR livery, but the only photos of that from sufficiently high vantage points that I've been able to find online are from too far away to be sure, especially as the condensing gear's pipework obscures the tanks' top surfaces, plus I don't know what sources they used for their information. I don't mean any disrespect by that last comment, but sometimes preserved stock is repainted a little differently to original practice so if possible, I'd prefer to learn what the GNR did at the time. That being said, if anyone could confirm the colour currently in use on the preserved No. 1744's tank tops, that would be a good start .

 

Thank you in advance - any help gratefully received!

[Edwardian]

I cannot think of any reason why it would be other than black. I think of tank tops like the footplate; a working surface to be walked on (as when the crew is taking on water) and not an area for livery application.

[phil_sutters]

You could ask this bunch, they must have a good view.

 

[Chas Levin]

18 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I cannot think of any reason why it would be other than black. I think of tank tops like the footplate; a working surface to be walked on (as when the crew is taking on water) and not an area for livery application.

Hello and thank you: put like that, it makes perfect sense! I hadn't actually thought about the working nature of those surfaces but I feel sure you must be right. Armed with your answer and Hornby's choice (perhaps based on similar thoughts) I shall paint them black... unless of course anyone turns up any information to contradict...

 

I came back to edit this, because something still niggled me about it and I finally worked out what it was: I think that because the rest of the livery is so elaborate, I expected that the tank tops would be something a little more fancy than plain black... I still completely agree with your point about the tops also being working surfaces, but am I the only one who's slightly disappointed...

Edited May 3, 2021 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

16 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

You could ask this bunch, they must have a good view.

 

Thanks Phil - normally I'd have taken you up on that excellent suggestion, but current Government Guidelines stipulate that people from not more than two households can use a Time Machine simultaneously, so assuming the three chaps on that loco are not all from the same household, I'd be in contravention of the guidelines the moment I met them in the middle of the Space Time Continuum...

 

Lovely picture though and not one I'd seen before. I only found a handful that clearly showed that very tall lamp iron on the right-hand side of the front of the footplate and none was anywhere near as clear as your photo.

 

Actually, I've never had a look round the RM Web Gallery section, so your post is doubly interesting as I shall begin with your gallery: thank you again!

[Doncaster]

Hi Chas,

I had a quick look at preserved locos and found this photo of 1744.  You can see the sidetank top but I can't decide if I think its black or dark green!  Plus of course it's a preserved loco and they might not have had access to the GNR painting spec.

 

https://images.app.goo.gl/w8tiTu2d8oUjUiA38

 

Good luck.

 

Vernon

[chris p bacon]

I have some pictures of 1744 which show the tank top as black. I also have a GNR painting diagram for a Stirling 0-6-0 tender engine which shows the splasher tops as black also.

As they were treated as a walkway black is the likely option for the C2/C12

[Chas Levin]

59 minutes ago, Doncaster said:

Hi Chas,

I had a quick look at preserved locos and found this photo of 1744.  You can see the sidetank top but I can't decide if I think its black or dark green!  Plus of course it's a preserved loco and they might not have had access to the GNR painting spec.

 

https://images.app.goo.gl/w8tiTu2d8oUjUiA38

 

Good luck.

 

Vernon

Thanks Vernon, much appreciated but in fact that's one of the photos I was referring to in my OP where you can't quite tell: very frustrating, isn't it?

Doesn't anyone stand on bridges to photograph locos these days - or rather, had they already stopped doing so before the pandemic?

[Chas Levin]

35 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

I have some pictures of 1744 which show the tank top as black. I also have a GNR painting diagram for a Stirling 0-6-0 tender engine which shows the splasher tops as black also.

As they were treated as a walkway black is the likely option for the C2/C12

Thanks very much Dave - that sounds like a pretty conclusive double whammy to me and it confirms Edwardian's view of the functional nature of the tank top surfaces, doesn't it?

I'd not heard of a painting diagram before - I thought they simply wrote instructions. I just googled the term and some very interesting results come up...

Excellent: hooray for the internet and thank you everyone for your helpful replies.

[MikeTrice]

Does this help?

 

Black with shades of rust.

[Chas Levin]

Thanks very much Mike - 'black with shades of rust' it is indeed, exactly what you'd expect for a black surface that's not only walked on, but has fire irons rattling about on it all day long!

 

Great picture, full of movement...

[Edwardian]

Yes, working or non-livery areas that are nominally black, seldom appear so, as is clear from Mike's picture. So I tend never to paint in pure black.  Black paint cut with up to 50% earth colour gives a good dirty black at scale, I have found. 

[Chas Levin]

11 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Yes, working or non-livery areas that are nominally black, seldom appear so, as is clear from Mike's picture. So I tend never to paint in pure black.  Black paint cut with up to 50% earth colour gives a good dirty black at scale, I have found. 

I would agree, except that I'll be finishing the loco in pretty much ex-works condition, so that area (and the footplate) probably will be in 'normal' black I think...

Edited May 4, 2021 by Chas Levin