Bachmann Summer 2021 - New products - New 24/0

[raetiamann]

3 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

On top of the class 88, which has been about a while, the 69 which is only just out in the wild, and the class 18 which is going to be made.

 

And if you include MUs that haven't been done the list would be very long.

 

You would expect Dapol to go with the cl.88 and Hornsby to modify tooling for the cl.69, but the lack of recent MUs is disappointing. 

[Moxy]

5 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Not sure about that - narrow gauge coaches are most often small, if they are 3.5mm/ft then they will be even smaller and possibly make it look that people would not fit in it.

Roy

 

That would be true if they were both to the same loading gauge, but they're not.  The Bachmann ones are to a larger continental loading gauge than would fit on a UK line.  The combination of larger loading gauge/smaller scale (continental) versus smaller loading gauge/larger scale (UK) means they fit quite well on UK 009 layout.

 

As a narrow gauge modeller I have a couple of the older Liliput versions of these coaches and they don't look out of place on a 009 layout.

 

Paul

[Compound2632]

18 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I’ve been messing around with 00 railways for 65 years now and stated taking magazines regularly 58 years ago.  In the letters page of the first one I ever read was a screed bemoaning the fact that the hobby was dying because young people were not interested in it.  It was rubbish then and still is now!

 

Much the same in the theatre - anxiety over not attracting a more youthful audience - who, of course, can't afford the prices.

 

There's a never-ending supply of the newly late-middle-aged... 

 

9 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

Dying no, Shrinking perhaps. Hence all the model shops that have closed over the years,

 

I think that has more to do with the changing economics of small independent shops in general than model railway shops in particular.

[The Johnster]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

I think that has more to do with the changing economics of small independent shops in general than model railway shops in particular

Yes.  Local model railway shops are thin on the ground, but the good ones always were, the trade they used to account for now being online.  I'd say that, all things being equal, the 'trade' is as big as it has been ever since the 60, but that there have been big changes in where and what it exactly and actually is.  Back in the day, 30 or 40 years ago, I would spend a sizeable amount of money at an exhibition buying small things I could only get at exhibitions or by mail order.  It is all still largely still all available, but most of it has disappeared from exhibitions, having been replaced by online ordering.

 

The other thing that has declined is kits, especially etched brass and whitemetal loco kits.  This has been discussed to death but the basic reason is that the variety, performance, and quality of RTR has improved.  There is an increasing amount of the section of the market that the kits catered to being taken up by the developing 3D provision, and this is a matter still in a state of flux.

[Compound2632]

42 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The other thing that has declined is kits, especially etched brass and whitemetal loco kits.  This has been discussed to death but the basic reason is that the variety, performance, and quality of RTR has improved.  There is an increasing amount of the section of the market that the kits catered to being taken up by the developing 3D provision, and this is a matter still in a state of flux.

 

My impression is that the high tide of etched brass an whitemetal kits was in the late 90s - I regret not spending more money then! (Not that I really had it.) But my other impression is that the quality of the etched brass kits currently available is, on the whole, better - or at least, the fittest survive. CAD techniques have come into play there, too.

[drgj]

The class 24 really looks the part and the LMS liveried compound is fabulous. 

 

The prices are steep for coaches. £100? I thought the blue liveried porthole was very expensive at nearly £70.

 

Dave

[The Johnster]

Coaches in blue boxs seem  expensive, right enough; most comparable Hornby products come in under the £50 mark, some consdidrably so.  There is IMHO a corresponding quality/detail gap, but it is a narrow one.  The point about quality and detail is that it is subject to the law of diminishing returns, so a very small difference in quality/detail may result in an apparently disproportionate increase in costs and thus price.  The waters then get muddied by discounting, but the bottom line is always that it costs what it costs and nobody is forcing you to buy the stuff.   

 

The red box/blue box price differences probably stem from several factors, but my impression (no more than an impression, I'm not claiming it to be a fact) is that Bachmann do not have effective control over rising costs, and this may be because they are tied in to producing to Kader's conditions in Kader's factories, effectively an internal market which Kader clearly believe promotes efficiency and profitability.  My view is that this is holistically wrong, but my view is irrelevant to Kader.

 

Despite the price, blue box sell well and reliably, and I suspect the sales targets are being met. 

[Roy Langridge]

8 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

...my impression (no more than an impression, (I'm not claiming it to be a fact) is that Bachmann do not have effective control over rising costs, and this may be because they are tied in to producing to Kader's conditions in Kader's factories, effectively an internal market which Kader clearly believe promotes efficiency and profitability. My view is that this is holistically wrong, but my view is irrelevant to Kader.

 

+1

 

Seen it before in my industry and yep, not a winner in the long run as necessary flexibility is lost.

Roy

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, drgj said:

The class 24 really looks the part and the LMS liveried compound is fabulous. 

 

The prices are steep for coaches. £100? I thought the blue liveried porthole was very expensive at nearly £70.

 

Dave

 

£100 for coaches is expensive, but to be fair, I dont think its 'that' bad bearing in mind the quality and lighting features of the Bachmann Mk2Fs. I find the price of the Mk1 BGs at £50+ worse when there's essentially a single-piece interior, no lighting, no electrics, minimal detailing and however many thousands have already been produced for tooling costs to be long since paid off.

 

I also find the price of Bachmann Multiple Units worse where things like the Provincial 2 car Class 150 seems to have reached £320 - is there really all that much thats changed about the tooling since they were being sold for half that price? 2 car Class 108 - £240, 2 car Class 205 - £250

[The Johnster]

Hornby, as Triang Rovex, have seen off established competiton that had lost control of costs before; remember Hornby Dublo?  The quality/price argument at the time was very similar, though HD had more control over their own production regime than Baccy do now.  When HD went under many people were quite shocked that a well established and respected company that had a reputation for quality had been undermined by the cheap plastic lo-fi competition, but rising costs and reluctance to change methods because of a creditable desire to maintain quality are often at the root of business failures. 

 

Bachmann's loss, were it to happen, would be disastrous for the RTR part of the hobby, which is the largest by a considerable margin.  It would leave Hornby as more or less in a monopolistic position, because the commissioners and smaller firms would not have the capacity to take up the slack, or probably to be able to borrow capital to try, and we know what happened with Hornby last time; 3 decades of high volume quick profit lo fi rubbish that ultimately almost sank the company! 

 

Don't assume it will never happen!

Edited May 7, 2021 by The Johnster

[johnd]

The price difference may not be much for a RRP class 24 -

 

Bachmann Class 24/0 DCC Ready - £180, DCC Sound - £280.

SLW DCC Ready - £185, DCC Sound £295.

 

But when you take the 15% discount of the Bachmann model ( which is readable available) then the price difference becomes notable.

 

Does anybody pay the rrp for Bachmann models ?  I don't ! 

[Legend]

16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Yes.  Local model railway shops are thin on the ground, but the good ones always were, the trade they used to account for now being online.  I'd say that, all things being equal, the 'trade' is as big as it has been ever since the 60, but that there have been big changes in where and what it exactly and actually is.  Back in the day, 30 or 40 years ago, I would spend a sizeable amount of money at an exhibition buying small things I could only get at exhibitions or by mail order.  It is all still largely still all available, but most of it has disappeared from exhibitions, having been replaced by online ordering.

 

The other thing that has declined is kits, especially etched brass and whitemetal loco kits.  This has been discussed to death but the basic reason is that the variety, performance, and quality of RTR has improved.  There is an increasing amount of the section of the market that the kits catered to being taken up by the developing 3D provision, and this is a matter still in a state of flux.

 

Very true

 

I think maybe the model railway market has actually grown in £ terms , but its much more diversified  and the structure has completely changed, maybe the number of consumers is less. 

 

Lets face it back in the late 60s it was only Triang Hornby and Wrenn, with a bit of Trix that did rtr .  There was a huge trainset market and enthusiasts all seemed to be building Wills, Ks or GEM kits . There were models that stayed in the catalogue for years and were always available.  So I would suspect there was a sizeable youth/ toy market and a smaller enthusiast one .

 

Fast forward to today , and the market may actually be bigger , but I suspect a smaller number of people in it with a higher spend per person . I think Hornby moving production to China then having supply problems was the catalyst for others to think they could commission locos . The availability of CAD/CAM and modern computers , systems , e selling  has really opened up the market to new producers/ commissioners , so you have Hattons, Kernow , Dapol, Accurascale , Revolution , Cavalex ,KR, Heljan all competing with the bigger boys Hornby and Bachmann . Where production used to run to 10s of thousands a production run these days may be very small or even made to order eg KRs GT3, I suspect some production runs maybe as low as 3000.

 

There is a finite amount of money to go around . I fear for Hornby in this situation . High overheads , competition coming in picking off models (eg Titfield Thunderbolt) but I also fear for Bachmann .  For whatever reason , but I suspect its mainly Kaders expectations , they are not the cheapest in the market . People like Hattons (66) Accurascale (55 ,37) can come in and have more detailed models at lower prices . Yes its a different route to market as they are direct selling , but to us the consumer  it really doesn't matter , its better and cheaper.

 

So yes people have been predicting the demise of this hobby for as long as I can remember . It hasn't gone , but there has been considerable change  and you need to adapt to it . Constantly sticking up prices and producing more of the same  possibly in lower numbers I dont think is a long term strategy .  And as I said before I'd move away from these quarterly announcements . Excite people when you have something to sell . Look at response to Accurascale Manor as an example , then compare it to response on your Summer announcements .  Which do you think is better?

 

For me this is fascinating stuff . Just glad I don't need to make a living from it and feel sorry for those that do .

Edited May 7, 2021 by Legend

[Roy Langridge]

25 minutes ago, johnd said:

The price difference may not be much for a RRP class 24 -

 

Bachmann Class 24/0 DCC Ready - £180, DCC Sound - £280.

SLW DCC Ready - £185, DCC Sound £295.

 

But when you take the 15% discount of the Bachmann model ( which is readable available) then the price difference becomes notable.

 

Does anybody pay the rrp for Bachmann models ?  I don't ! 

 

However, in the context of today's prices, the difference between 15% of Bachmann 24 at rrp and an SLW 24 is about half a modern coach - not so much really.

Roy 

[johnd]

Just now, Roy Langridge said:

 

However, in the context of today's prices, the difference between 15% of Bachmann 24 at rrp and an SLW 24 is about half a modern coach - not so much really.

Roy 

 

But still a difference which could well influence someone's buying ability.  

[Roy Langridge]

Just now, johnd said:

 

But still a difference which could well influence someone's buying ability.  

 

Oh I am sure it will, but I am just saying that the difference is not so vast. What would I rather have a lesser 24 and a another wagon or a top-notch 24? Easy choice for me, the latter wins out every day.

Roy

[GordonC]

2 minutes ago, johnd said:

 

But still a difference which could well influence someone's buying ability.  

 

Possibly, but it'd still need to be someone that could afford the £150 to spend on the Bachmann one in the first place. If I'm spending that much anyway, I'd much rather pay the extra £35 and get the SLW one for the accuracy and detail.

[MikeParkin65]

17 minutes ago, johnd said:

 

But still a difference which could well influence someone's buying ability.  

The biggest factor affecting my buying ability is that I will be able to pick up one or more versions of the Bachmann 24 at any number of retail outlets over a period of maybe 12 to 18 months.

 

For a SLW 24 I will one opportunity and thats it.

 

I've apparently missed the boat for SLW's latest 24 (the original version let us remember not being perfect) so if i want a 24 to modern standards in the foreseeable future I will be happily buying Bachmann

[woodenhead]

21 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

Possibly, but it'd still need to be someone that could afford the £150 to spend on the Bachmann one in the first place. If I'm spending that much anyway, I'd much rather pay the extra £35 and get the SLW one for the accuracy and detail.

And that's fine, you're a modeller who knows about SLW and are confident to deal with them via mail order.

 

But if you are someone who buys from a shop, say Arcadia or Rails of Sheffield in person, the Bachmann 24 will win hands down, it's there in front of you and you may not even be aware an SLW 24 exists.

[GordonC]

2 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

The biggest factor affecting my buying ability is that I will be able to pick up one or more versions of the Bachmann 24 at any number of retail outlets over a period of maybe 12 to 18 months.

 

For a SLW 24 I will one opportunity and thats it.

 

I've apparently missed the boat for SLW's latest 24 (the original version let us remember not being perfect) so if i want a 24 to modern standards in the foreseeable future I will be happily buying Bachmann

 

With the kind of batches that Bachmann produce these days are they really much more available than SLW other than they may be scattered round multiple model shops gathering dust where with SLW the entire batch is in one place. Taking an example, how many Bachmann BR Blue era Class 47s can you find in shops? one of the most common diesel classes in the most widespread and common liveries and there hasn't been many production runs for a couple of years - has there been any since 47436?

 

.... and if you're waiting for a particular version of the Class 24, I'm sure you could phone up or message SLW and let them know pretty directly. I'm sure if there are enough requests for the same thing then they will happily produce more

[GordonC]

5 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

And that's fine, you're a modeller who knows about SLW and are confident to deal with them via mail order.

 

But if you are someone who buys from a shop, say Arcadia or Rails of Sheffield in person, the Bachmann 24 will win hands down, it's there in front of you and you may not even be aware an SLW 24 exists.

 

It would be interesting to know statistics for how many models are purchased either walk in orders to shops, exhibitions and mail order. There isn't any difference in placing mail order/website orders with Rails of Sheffield or Hattons and SLW.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, GordonC said:

 

It would be interesting to know statistics for how many models are purchased either walk in orders to shops, exhibitions and mail order. There isn't any difference in placing mail order/website orders with Rails of Sheffield or Hattons and SLW.

The point I was making it that people make decisions for different reasons and there is nothing wrong in Bachmann retooling and releasing another 24, quite clearly both SLW and Bachmann believe there is lots of potential for small rats - even Heljan are in on this mix now and they have a smaller network than Bachmann, hence they quite happily supply to EFE for access to the shops.

[MikeParkin65]

7 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

It would be interesting to know statistics for how many models are purchased either walk in orders to shops, exhibitions and mail order. There isn't any difference in placing mail order/website orders with Rails of Sheffield or Hattons and SLW.

I have no problem buying on line and have nothing at all against SLW but I prefer to buy from a shop (and use various though Cheltenham and Hereford are my usuals and are convenient). If I have a budget available I invariably have other options on mind if perchance the current object of desire isnt available so if a Bachmann 24 wasn't in stock I might get 20 or 22 or a K1 etc etc.

 

Can't do that with SLW - they either have a 24 or they haven't.

 

As I understand SLW  aren't going to be making any more 24's this year whereas its a fair assumption there will be various green and blue Bachmann 24/0's and 24/1's available  over the counter from multiple outlets for the next 6 months at least. 

[atom3624]

I'm just wondering how nice it would be for SLW to diversify a little, and add another, larger Sulzer-engined diesel ... the Class 47 ...

 

Al.

[Aire Head]

3 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

I'm just wondering how nice it would be for SLW to diversify a little, and add another, larger Sulzer-engined diesel ... the Class 47 ...

 

Al.

I hope not I couldn’t cope with all the extra griping about manufacturers duplicating each other again.

[MikeParkin65]

3 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

I'm just wondering how nice it would be for SLW to diversify a little, and add another, larger Sulzer-engined diesel ... the Class 47 ...

 

Al.

Agree - a top drawer 47 would sell like hotcakes for as long as there is 4mm modelling! Sadly I think none of us expect Heljan to be that top draw provider. I'd love to be wrong about that.