Through coaches to/from South Wales

[Penrhos1920]

Did many/any through coaches reach South Wales pre 1923?  I’m thinking did the Midland, LB&SCR, LNWR or NE operate a brake compo or brake third and compo to Cardiff or Swansea?

 

I’ve got a GWR though coaches programme for 1925 that lists just a few:

 

LMS compo and Van Third from Manchester - up to 4 trains on some days,

LMS Van Third, compo, Van Third from Liverpool

 

The only LNER coaches were whole trains and then only the Barry - Newcastle on alternate days and Sheffield- Swansea on alternate Sundays.

 

Compare that to the through coaches to the West Country where the list is enormous!

 

[webbcompound]

The LNWR marshalling instructions show quite a few through coaches going to  Welsh destinations from Manchester and Liverpool, but apart from its own line to Swansea and destinations via the Cambrian there isn't a lot going to South Wales. In fact mostly the through coaches listed on these routes seem to be GW..

 

In 1910

 9.25am from Mcr LNW break van with a GW break composite to Cardiff GW;

10.40am from Lpool  joined at Crewe to two 45ft break compos to Pembroke Dock from Mcr;

There appear to be several break vans from Lpool and Mcr goiung through to Cardiff RR and Pembroke Dock

The Head of the Valleys  line could only be reached over GWR metal and the 3.30am Shrewsbury to Hereford includes a 42ft break tricompo for Merthyr, and a break van for Cardiff RR.

 

The trains to Newcastle through Leeds carry GWR vehicles to and from Newcastle

[ChrisN]

In the National Archives in Rail 938, (hope the link works), are the lists of GWR through coaches each year from 1892 to 1926 for summer workings.  Unfortunately the latest one I have is 1913.

 

I assume that is what you have for 1925.

[mpeffers]

The Ports-to-Ports probably saw coaches from the North-East reaching South Wales. I’ve seen more references to it in my MSWJR research than actual photographs, so not too sure on the constitution pre-1923. The webpage I found about it suggests the GWR and LNER alternated coaching sets post-grouping.

 

Edit: Actually that probably is the Barry - Newcastle service mentioned...

Edited May 4, 2021 by mpeffers

[Penrhos1920]

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

In the National Archives in Rail 938, (hope the link works), are the lists of GWR through coaches each year from 1892 to 1926 for summer workings.  Unfortunately the latest one I have is 1913.

 

I assume that is what you have for 1925.

 

Yes Summer 1925, via R Carroll and BR coaches email group.

[Paul H Vigor]

LNWR services to Swansea Victoria from/via Shrewsbury. Midland Railway services to Swansea St. Thomas via the Swansea Vale Railway, Brecon and Hereford.

 

Post-1923 (the Grouping) LMS long-distance services ran into Swansea Victoria. Swansea St. Thomas relegated to local services within the Swansea Valley, to and from Brynamman.

 

I believe the Cambrian Railway may have run some through coaches?

Edited May 4, 2021 by Paul H Vigor
to add information

[Brassey]

From memory and without consulting my documents, in 1912 there was an LNWR through carriage between Newport and Newcastle that was attached to a variety of local trains.  It returned as the only passenger vehicle on the south bound York mail.

 

I will double check this but as it was not timetabled on express passenger trains it may have escaped the published through carriages programmes. 

[corneliuslundie]

In Welsh Railways Archive Volume 2 pp231-235, 1999, Harold Morgan analysed the through carriage workings to and from the Cambrian in 1912. There are a few to and from Cardiff both TVR and RR and one to Newport via the BMR.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

12 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

Did many/any through coaches reach South Wales pre 1923?  I’m thinking did the Midland, LB&SCR, LNWR or NE operate a brake compo or brake third and compo to Cardiff or Swansea?

 

In the summer 1903 timetable, the only Midland through carriages were between Birmingham and Swansea, two daily each way, via Brecon, Hereford, and Worcester. Cardiff was one of the very few major places the Midland octopus did not have a tentacle.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

13 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

The only LNER coaches were whole trains and then only the Barry - Newcastle on alternate days and Sheffield- Swansea on alternate Sundays.

That's because on the other alternate day, the GWR provided the whole train.

[Poggy1165]

The question might be exactly how, in pre-group days, the Newcastle-Barry trains were made up on 'LNER' days. Were they purely GC or a mix of GC and NER? I don't know, but I suspect someone out there does.

[John-Miles]

The Mildland through coaches to Swansea were worked by the Midland from Birmingham to Worcester Shrub Hill where they were attached to a GWR train to Hereford. The Midland then attached them to one of its Hereford, Brecon, Swansea services which was then amalgamated at Ynisygeinon Junction with the train from Brynamman and the whole thing was repeated in reverse for the return journey. Not surprisingly the service was a casualty of WW1 and never reinstated. You would need real stamina to make that journey when you could do it much more easily by the GWR but the scenery by the Midland route was much more spectacular.

[billbedford]

6 hours ago, Poggy1165 said:

The question might be exactly how, in pre-group days, the Newcastle-Barry trains were made up on 'LNER' days. Were they purely GC or a mix of GC and NER? I don't know, but I suspect someone out there does.

The carriage stock was GCR only until 1928/9 when the sets were replace with new Gresley coaches. 

[Brassey]

The York mail as previously mentioned was made up of LNWR Post vehicles in 1912 which ran between York and Cardiff.  I believe the GWR objected and they were replaced with GW vehicles from 1915.  (Edit. according to notes I have, no 864 L10/L11 (from Bettabitz etched brass sides) 40' TPO Van was reallocated to this Cardiff - Crewe Mail Train in 1916.  The LNWR vehicles were 6 wheel.  I have both LNWR and GWR kits so will apply rule 1 to use both!).

 

In the winter programme of 1911 fish trucks ran between Grimsby and Cardiff

Edited May 6, 2021 by Brassey

[bbishop]

Extracted from the LSWR October 1922 timetable, there were three trains on a weekday from Portsmouth & Southsea to Cardiff.  One started at Brighton and contained a Restaurant Car; this and one other travelled via Eastleigh.  The third was via Southampton West.  For information, the Bristol stop was Stapleton Road.  Bill

Edited May 6, 2021 by bbishop

[Penrhos1920]

17 hours ago, bbishop said:

Extracted from the LSWR October 1922 timetable, there were three trains on a weekday from Portsmouth & Southsea to Cardiff.  One started at Brighton and contained a Restaurant Car; this and one other travelled via Eastleigh.  The third was via Southampton West.  For information, the Bristol stop was Stapleton Road.  Bill

 

Were they all LSWR coaches or a mix?

[Penrhos1920]

I'm surprised that NE or GNR coaches haven't been mentioned.  I remeber reading somewhere that the GNR was keen to keep people in their own coaches; I half expected to see that there were through coaches from Bradford via Leeds, Doncaster Grantham, Nottingham and Derby.