How do we get more freight off the roads and onto the railway?

[Fat Controller]

39 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

AFAIK, well at least it's my understanding, the Channel Tunnel bores are much larger, to accommodate the shuttle vehicles, which are much larger than the largest UIC gauge allows.

The rail tunnel bores are 7.6 metre diameter (25ft)

 

HS1 is bulit to UIC GC gauge, within which, rail vehicles have a max height of 4.65 metres.

 

.

Even with a much larger loading gauge, ET freight shuttles are limited in terms of the height of vehicle they can carry. The height limit for LGVs is 4.2 m, according to the web-site.

 

[Trog]

40 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Finally there is the consideration of axle loadings and rail wear etc on HS1 to consider.  The cant on HS1 is designed around 140 - 186mph passenger units - traffic traveling at slower speeds (e.g. 100mph) will not be subjected to as much centrifugal force when cornering and as such are more likely to have the flange pressed up against the rail causing it to wear quicker. This extra wear would have to be factored into grater track access costs to pay for more frequent track maintenance / renewal

 

Slow heavy traffic on track canted for a higher speed, puts more of its weight on the low rail and so tends to spread the head of the low rail rather than the wheel flanges rubbing and causing sidewear. Sidewear being where the wheel flanges rub against the gauge face of the high rail due to cant deficiency causing an outward pressure. This wears the side of the rail head in a shape that matches the wheel flange shape and can cause a risk of derailment due to the flanges climbing over the rail.

[DY444]

4 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

The biggest physical issue however is the overhead power supply - Eurostars (even the new Siemens ones) have to be equipped with special 'high reach' pantographs as the OLE in the  Channel Tunnel is significantly higher than on the French LGV networks, let alone British standards!

 

There is an "ET" setting on the Eurostar system (aka power) selector control.  When the ET setting is selected, amongst other things, the pan characteristics (such as over-height detection) are changed to operate with the greater contact wire height found in and around the tunnel.  The system/power mode change is done at the neutral sections at each ET boundary. 

 

Supporting my very unofficial theory that a long standing private joke between ole system designers the world over mandates every electrification scheme must have at least one very awkwardly sighted OHNS, the one at the ET/LGV Nord boundary at Calais is at the foot of a very sharp rising gradient towards Lille!

Edited May 23, 2021 by DY444

[Northmoor]

Thanks to all for knocking my Dagenham CTRL idea on the head.  Just a pity these things weren't considered when the Tunnel was being built.  Quite apart from the additional costs, you have to suspect that Mrs Thatcher's preference for roads would have counted against it; she only grudgingly accepted a rail Chunnel as a pure road scheme was demonstrated to be completely impractical.

[Ron Ron Ron]

4 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Thanks to all for knocking my Dagenham CTRL idea on the head.  Just a pity these things weren't considered when the Tunnel was being built.  Quite apart from the additional costs, you have to suspect that Mrs Thatcher's preference for roads would have counted against it; she only grudgingly accepted a rail Chunnel as a pure road scheme was demonstrated to be completely impractical.

 

I think others have pointed out, it isn't desirable to put freight traffic on a dedicated HS line, nor would it have been sensible to allow the large shuttle vehicles on it either.

HS1 wouldn't have been a High Speed line if they had.

High Speed lines are designed and engineered specifically for HS traffic and not mixed or heavy freight.

 

 

.

[AMJ]

It was mentioned earlier about potentially recycling EMU's to be converted for freight traffic flows, looking at the work carried out on amending old stock for modern use we could have last mile so that they could travel away from the wires.  However as many EMU's were designed as monocoque it will not be feasible to cut bodies so that they could accommodate containers on flats.  Might be interesting to see other than the 88/93's who else will go for multi power electrics for freights.

 

Containerisation does seem to be the key to getting traffic moving.  The China to London train is actually 3 trains one in China, one in Russia and one thru Europe as the containers are transferred at the rail gauge change locations.  Similarly this could happen on a Spain to UK run at border with France.  However it's probably cheaper and slower by boat.

 

BR days there seemed to be more but smaller container handling locations compared to the big ones like Stourton (Leeds).

[Fat Controller]

Containers have been transhipped between standard and broad-gauge at the Spanish- French border for onward movement to the UK since the Channel Tunnel opened in 1994. Initially, it was a Compamy Train service, operated by Transfesa on behalf of Ford. With the decline of Ford operations in the UK, it has become more of a perishables service, travelling from Folkestone to Barking via CTRL.

[ess1uk]

It’s a pity that the lorry loads of vegetables from the Fens can’t be sent by rail.

 

[stewartingram]

11 hours ago, ess1uk said:

It’s a pity that the tractor & trailer loads of vegetables from the Fens can’t be sent by rail.

 

There I've corrected it for you 

 

Stewart

[SamThomas]

On 07/05/2021 at 09:55, Grizz said:

 

Totally bias safety regulations that continue to tolerate professional road freight transport to kill innocent people every year whilst insisting proffesional rail freight cannot.

 

Do you honestly believe that us HGV drivers set off to work (often at very unsociable hours to get your food on the shelves on time) to "kill innocent people" ?

 

Would these "innocent people" be some like those that undertake left turning HGV's, correctly road positioned & indicating on their cycles & electric scooters or just plain walking accross the junction heads down looking at their "device" ?

These "innocebnt people" also have a duty of care to themseselves.

 

Many a time I have had to brake sharply to protect those who act in a selfish manner & then have to explain the cirumstances to a transport manager why the on-board telematics grassed me up.

 

& yes, I am sadly aware that there are some (too many) cases of HGV drivers not paying attention with the result of death/life changing injuries (& these should never, ever be allowed to drive again).

 

Please do not generalise when referring to us hard working HGV drivers - in fact meet me at 03:00H tomorrow at my depot & I'll show you a very different take on the matter (I'll even buy the coffee).

 

For various reasons already discussed general freight will never return to the railways in the UK.

 

Railfreight will never have the flexibility of road logistics & certainly not all the while people "want it yesterday", so bear that in mind the next time you order stuff from that unethical organisation that would pack something like a decoder in a box big enough to ship a pair of boots.

[SamThomas]

On 07/05/2021 at 14:02, woodenhead said:

Speedlink died because containers did the same job but without the need to load the packages or pallets into a van.

 

You load the container at the factory/warehouse, transport it to the intermodal terminal, load it to the train and away it goes.

 

The real losers with Speedlink going were the chemical companies with odd wagon loads but even here the development of container sized tanks had overcome that issue too.

& there lies the problem - every time a load (in a container or otherwise) is transhipped the cost goes up.

 

By the time your load has waited for the train to take it a few hundred miles & transhipped the other end The HGV from the factory will probably be at the delivery point.

[SamThomas]

On 07/05/2021 at 14:33, Grizz said:

My half ton car doesn’t destroy our local country lanes, 44 ton trucks taking short cuts do.

 

 

If rail freight were allowed to operate the way road haulage operates with regard to overall safety, ‘accidents and resultant deaths, no regular and ongoing retraining and specific route training, properly informed control of working hours and most importantly all the supporting enforce resources to ensure that they always comply the the stringent safety regulations and enforced weight on infrastructure...then you might begin to shift the balance.
 

Look at the Royal Mail rail hubs, all that money spent, all those facilities built and overnight....Ah we are transferring all to the roads, because anyone can drive a truck. Perfect for privatisation, no specialist rail knowledge required just road haulage. How much more attractive was that.

"Half ton (or tonne) car" - what is it - a pedal car ?

 

"Overall safety" - yess, it's poor in places & I would like to see standards improved - but they will come at a cost to you, reflected in the price of everything you buy.

 

"Anyone can driver a truck" - fancy quoting such drivel - again 03:00H start & i guarantee you will have a different opinion.

 

You have stated that road haulage is what it is due to "market forces" & so it is.

As you are clearly so anti road haulage then I respectfully you stop buying stuff & start growing all your own food & making your own cloths (oh, & don't buy a new car because that will be delivered on an unroadworthy HGV driven by an overtired homicidal maniac - better still, get rid of the car & go everywhen by public transport).

[SamThomas]

On 07/05/2021 at 17:21, Grizz said:

As I have no knowledge of how this works, how would VOSA/DVLA know if drivers were using suitable routes? Over the years I have watched any number of local farms using hauliers with the maximum sized vehicles possible, because obviously for the farmers it keeps costs down. Yet several local roads have bridges with weight restrictions of 20T maximum, which are clearly being ignored. Or is this down to local Police to check, because iif that is the case then it will never ever happen. 

 

 

I have "clashed swords" with you on other posts but I do agree with you on this one.

 

VOSA/VDSA (or "The Wombles" as they are affectionatly known as) only really patrol the motorways & major routes.

 

Traffic police are, thesedays a dying breed & the local police too busy with domestics & not enough traffic law knowledge that would stand up in court if the other side has half decent legal representation.

[Joseph_Pestell]

In Calais a few weeks ago, I saw a whole intermodal freight train operated for/by Alaine, a mid-sized lorry firm in the South of France. 

 

So it can be done. It must be better to have containers/trailers on the move earning money than sat in a layby.

[Ramblin Rich]

This came up in a totally unrelated thread, from 

@Captain Kernow

 

[SamThomas]

Interesting Rich & thanks for the link.

 

This is where the inflexibility of rail & the flexibility of road rears it's head. lets compare the outfit I work for & how it would fit in with those proposals ;

 

The small satallite depot I work from has 4 x trucks which deliver to small supermarkets & "corner" ttype shops. Monday to Wednesday 3 x trucks work. Thursday to Saturday 4 x trucks work (mine is the 4th one - i work 3 x days).

Yesterday the transport manager told me not to go in - there were only enough sheduled deliveries** for 3 x trucks - I stll get paid but they save the diesel & wear/tear on 1 x truck.

Now, if that equated to an empty container on the train then who would have to pay for that ?

 

** Completly down to what people have bought earlier in the week.

[Kris]

49 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

In Calais a few weeks ago, I saw a whole intermodal freight train operated for/by Alaine, a mid-sized lorry firm in the South of France. 

 

So it can be done. It must be better to have containers/trailers on the move earning money than sat in a layby.

The distances in France are greater than the distances in the UK. This is particularly so when you look at where the major population centres are. France has Major population centres spread throughout the country, where as in the UK the major population centres are very much concentrated in the central and southern areas. Once you get beyond Glasgow and Edinburgh in the north and Bristol / Cardiff in the west the populations of towns and cities are small. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Kris

[bike2steam]

1 hour ago, Kris said:

 Once you get beyond Glasgow and Edinburgh in the north and Bristol / Cardiff in the west the populations of towns and cities are small. 

With the exception of areas not worthwhile building on for obvious reasons like Dartmoor,Exmoor, and Brecon Beacons etc, the country is still too densely populated.

 

[woodenhead]

3 hours ago, SamThomas said:

& there lies the problem - every time a load (in a container or otherwise) is transhipped the cost goes up.

 

By the time your load has waited for the train to take it a few hundred miles & transhipped the other end The HGV from the factory will probably be at the delivery point.

It all depends on the distance - an unaccompanied container moving hundreds of miles to appropriate intermodal terminals can be cheaper - but shorter distance hops are always going to be better using a single mode of transport.

 

What you also need is a sufficient network of intermodal terminals to which your containers can be delivered and picked up, otherwise as you say the cost/benefit is lost.