Hitachi trains grounded

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, ColinK said:

Given that Northern’s CAF units, 195 and 331s are also having a similar problem, perhaps the trains were build to the required specification, but that specification wasn’t right?

 

The 195/331 issue is failure  and cracking of the body where the yaw damper bracket is bolted in a T-slot arrangement. (There are a few images available online - https://www.google.com/search?q=class+195+suspension+failure&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiLxo_z47rwAhXNWxUIHc7wAhoQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1366&bih=657 )

 

The 80x issue reads as weld failure where a bracket is welded to the body.

[HillsideDepot]

Tweeted by GWR in the past half hour:

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 hours ago, lyneux said:

In software engineering there is no point in waiting for the requirements to be perfect... it’s unlikely they ever will be. Having a vision of what good looks like is far more important.

That reminds me of a new manager was put in charge of our project group. My team was working on a project involving new technology and some quite complex interfacing issues. One day when the job was going badly he said to us

 

"You'll just have to put it in as it is, you'll get it right in the end but might kill a few on the way there."

 

He backed off somewhat sharply when I asked him if he had actually ever seen the bodies carried out from a wrecked train. 

The worst I attended in numbers terms was in the 1960s when I was just 18 years old and I can still remember the sight, smell, and particularly the eerie feeling of silence as the crews of firemen worked to free those trapped. Things we found when clearing the site and repairing damaged infrastructure the following day were enough to make some of the men physically sick.

[AMJ]

One wonders what the operators who have items on order that are based upon the 8xx stock or even those with CAF products are thinking now.  I bet there are some looking at quality control issues and wondering if they can get Siemens or other makers items.

 

As this is a family friendly forum I'm unable to quote the unfriendly version of the CAF acronym that is doing the rounds.

 

There are probably not enough staff to act as pilots to guide crews that have traction knowledge for routes that they are not necessarily passed on.

[charliepetty]

4 hours ago, lyneux said:

Maybe they can lend us some XPTs?

LSL Could be running 2 X HSTs on the ECML with an LSL driver & LNER Pilotman.

 

That would help a bit.

 

The EMUs around Leeds, IF someone had took steps of route gauging etc could be running Kings Cross services (2 X 4 Car sets).

 

There are Class 68s & 67s and Mk 4 Sets all over the place so make anw  effort to get some back into use.

 

There were 'How Many' Class 90's & Mk4 Grand Central West Coast sets, some Mark4 sets are parked it Worksop

 

Not sure if BR would have done nothing.

 

Charlie

[deltic17]

2 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

Any predictions what this might mean for a 08:50 GWR train from Truro to Reading tomorrow morning?

It is going to be a quickly reinstated Pacer I believe.....

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

Any predictions what this might mean for a 08:50 GWR train from Truro to Reading tomorrow morning?

Stock is on its way south now for this service...., seen passing nuneaton...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-57032174
 

I believe its fueled by biomass ?

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by adb968008

[Kris]

3 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

Any predictions what this might mean for a 08:50 GWR train from Truro to Reading tomorrow morning?

GWR are now telling customers not to travel tomorrow either and that disruption will continue into next week.

[Bucoops]

It's OK, it's all in hand.

 

[corneliuslundie]

We seem to have two parallel discussions on this topic, here and in the Class 800 thread. Would it be best if they were combined?

Jonathan

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

35 minutes ago, charliepetty said:

LSL Could be running 2 X HSTs on the ECML with an LSL driver & LNER Pilotman.

 

That would help a bit.

 

The EMUs around Leeds, IF someone had took steps of route gauging etc could be running Kings Cross services (2 X 4 Car sets).

 

There are Class 68s & 67s and Mk 4 Sets all over the place so make anw  effort to get some back into use.

 

There were 'How Many' Class 90's & Mk4 Grand Central West Coast sets, some Mark4 sets are parked it Worksop

 

Not sure if BR would have done nothing.

 

Charlie

In your fantasy universe how many crews do you think are sat around waiting for a call, where is the second LSL HST anyway, how does that comply with PRM regulations, who is going to be the guard on that, who is going to dispatch it from stations since LNER competency to dispatch slam doors is now confined to Wakefield and Doncaster only, how are you going to get the actual LSL set or your imaginary second LSL set onto the ECML to start with. So only about five reasons why item 1 couldn't happen, I'm not even going to bother going through the rest. 

[adb968008]

So Azumas are prone to Mazak rot as well....

 

As LNER have got sufficient stock for service tomorrow, they have agreed to provide assistance to GWR, by operating a spare stock move to Wales on monday..

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K03669/2021-05-10/detailed
 

Its timing will deflect press attention from the raft of complaints of cancelations and buy GWRs press team valuable time for making new explanations, to which GWR should give gratitude for that breathing space, and give the press some odd ball news.

 

The train consists of 4x class 91’s travelling down the ECML, GWML in broad daylight right at lunchtime and across the capital. Frustrated travellers can rejoice seeing working stuff go for scrap, whilst the stuff that replaced it cracks up on shed.

 

I really do hope this turn runs, and the press gets its headlines as it might just get some focus on the craziness of this 1968 style approach to Britains railways right now.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by adb968008

[eastwestdivide]

A quick view of Realtimetrains for Doncaster 0600-2000 today shows over 30 LNER trains actually ran, more later in the day than earlier. Some of those were cancelled for part of their journey.

The vast majority that did run were shown as 9-car versions of the Hitachis if that means anything (perhaps they prioritised getting higher-capacity trains back into service?).

Edited May 8, 2021 by eastwestdivide

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

3 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

Any predictions what this might mean for a 08:50 GWR train from Truro to Reading tomorrow morning?

What doesn't help the WoE to London cause this weekend is an Axminster to Exeter block on the South Western. GWR says come back next week, maybe.

 

[adb968008]

33 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

In your fantasy universe how many crews do you think are sat around waiting for a call, where is the second LSL HST anyway, how does that comply with PRM regulations, who is going to be the guard on that, who is going to dispatch it from stations since LNER competency to dispatch slam doors is now confined to Wakefield and Doncaster only, how are you going to get the actual LSL set or your imaginary second LSL set onto the ECML to start with. So only about five reasons why item 1 couldn't happen, I'm not even going to bother going through the rest. 

For GWR it seems this is their Singapore 1942 moment.

 

When the barrier to solving a crisis is paperwork, and the only possible solution is to admit defeat, despite practical solutions existing in our midst and being impossible to rally round, then you know the set up has become too complicated and unfit for purpose.

 

How would Britains railways possibly survive in WW2 type situation.

 

imagine this happening pre-covid.. 2weeks no IC services.. the impact to Britains economy would have been huge, if it the post Covid impact is negliable, services give up in defeat, then Britains railways have permanently fallen.

Who is the railways General Percival giving the orders to surrender to the Azuma right now ?

 

 

Quote

competency to dispatch slam doors 

If my 10 year old daughter can slam doors, any old fool can do it.

Edited May 8, 2021 by adb968008

[Hobby]

I really hope that last comment was a joke. 

[great central]

(Un)fortunately paperwork is now all important for anyone working in a safety critical role, rightly so as it also provides protection if something should go wrong.

There's something we had done for years now prohibited because of paperwork issues.

Something very simple but because it 'got lost' from the paperwork at some point we're not now allowed to do it, so have to call on another competent person who holds the relevant permission.

Edited May 8, 2021 by great central
Add bracket

[black and decker boy]

Suggestions elsewhere that a plan B for GWR is forming to keep people moving.

Details as yet unconfirmed but 387s beyond Didcot possible and Castle sets to Reading.

 

 

[great central]

1 minute ago, black and decker boy said:

Suggestions elsewhere that a plan B for GWR is forming to keep people moving.

Details as yet unconfirmed but 387s beyond Didcot possible and Castle sets to Reading.

 

 

 

Wonder if LNER are looking into any sort of contingency for the future if this issue is repeated as their sets accumulate more miles?

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Stock is on its way south now for this service...., seen passing nuneaton...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-57032174
 

I believe its fueled by biomass ?

 

 

They're on the wrong track.

They should be going the udder way.

 

.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

I really hope that last comment was a joke. 

 

I really hope railways haven't forgotten why they exist...

 

But then again,

 

if they are also deserted by those who they are there to serve, that equally is a bad omen for the future.

 

The singapore comparison stands.

 

(Read your history, Singapore was the turning point of Empire in Asia.. Percival surrendered through incompetence and paperwork inefficiencies*, he misjudged the situation and poorly defended a populace who on seeing this weakness turned their back on British rule and sought independence afterwards).

 

* he actually even sent a train containing printed maps, northwards towards Penang away from his troops and landed them into the advancing Japanese army, who had little knowledge of the Malay pensinsula, amongst overseeing hundreds of other bureaucratic issues that prevented an army from functioning. Instead he continually retreated with poor communication, bad decisions until he eventually surrended to an army that he out gunned, that had no supply line and was almost exhausted, whilst he occupied a island fortress with the added benefit of a defendable island city state in-front of it, and fresh water and supplies ahead of it..,which he apparently didnt think was important.
 

Trains are there to serve the public, but if services simply gives up, and equally at the same time passengers number aren't sufficient to care.. then railways have permanently shrunk to insignificance.

 

Shutting the ECML and GWML intercity services for weeks, even as late as 2019 would have had huge immense political consequences to the sheer millions affected...but if today they can give up and admit defeat for weeks, and equally not suffer a reaction.. then railways have become insignificant.. and that costs big ££££’s to maintain what could viewed as becoming a mere luxury than a neccessity.

 

For that reason alone, politically being seen to rise to the challenge and provide a service above all odds puts the railways as a platform for neccessity...otherwise why does it need the budget it needs, if not enough passengers are affected ?

 

So yes, I really do hope they can move the filing cabinet off the tracks and find something to run, even if its cowering in fear behind it.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by adb968008

[Hobby]

adb968008, you quoted "competency to dispatch slam doors" with a flippant remark which I hoped was a joke but clearly not. 

 

A year or so ago I signed slam door hsts, now I don't. To operate such stock I must have the relevant training which covers much more than how to open and close them, such as how they work, what to do if there are faults, how cdl works, how to check for faults and test them to ensure they are working correctly, what to do in an emergency, plus lots of other things. Yes your daughter can close one, so can I, but she can't do any of the other things I was trained to do. At the end of my training I was assessed and passed to work them. 

 

The same applies to all station platform staff. 

 

Different tocs hsts also had internal differences which need additional training. 

 

So whilst I could make a decent fist of working one I wouldn't. You want to know why? Well I'll tell you. 

 

It's because when Joe Bloggs (or adb968008) turns up at the station he will expect his train to be safely operated and if anything goes wrong it will be dealt with competently. So if something does go wrong and he is killed or injured when using that slam door train the first question I'll be asked by the RAIB is am i competent to work it and where's your proof? That passenger or us family will also have his lawyer sat behind him looking to sue me. Finally I'll find myself looking at a possible jail sentance. 

 

So no I won't work them. 

 

If the railways were still BR you'd get the same answer from any staff. Nowadays it's not worth the risk. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Hobby

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

We seem to have two parallel discussions on this topic, here and in the Class 800 thread. Would it be best if they were combined?

Jonathan

Agreed

Especially as I have just mistakenly posted a reply in the other one!

[phil-b259]

10 minutes ago, 313201 said:

Hi Everyone 

 

I was wondering if there were still any 2+7 and 2+8 hst sets available for use so that at least some long distance services could be running

 

Not on GWR there aren't

 

In any case I imagine drivers based at the London end don't have the required traction knowledge to drive HSTs now anyway.

 

Crews from the south west up to Bristol might because of the 'Castle' mini HST sets

[melmerby]

25 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

They're on the wrong track.

They should be going the udder way.

 

.

That joke was in the report.