Hitachi trains grounded

[Hobby]

11 minutes ago, 313201 said:

Hi Everyone 

 

I was wondering if there were still any 2+7 and 2+8 hst sets available for use so that at least some long distance services could be running

 

There may be, I know xc have brought in our spare sets into use. But the issue is whether there is anyone still competent to work them, as many will still be slam door stock. 

[Banger Blue]

2 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

I've just been reading the current edition (May) of Railway Magazine. There is a paragraph in there (page 8) saying that cracks appearing on GWR class 800's are being investigated. The news was released just as RM went to press (about 3 weeks ago)

Different issue. That would be the crack(s) found in the Yaw Damper. This latest issue is cracks in the bodywork around the jacking points which were only discovered by Hitachi engineers late Fri night / early hours of Saturday morning.

[adb968008]

19 minutes ago, Hobby said:

1. adb968008, you quoted "competency to dispatch slam doors" with a flippant remark which I hoped was a joke but clearly not. 

 

2. So no I won't work them. 

 

3. If the railways were still BR you'd get the same answer from any staff. Nowadays it's not worth the risk. 

1. You assume too much. I don't seriously expect a 10 year old to get a job on a train station closing doors... paperwork says children have to be at least 16 to work in the UK. As you have had special training and certification, you probably already knew that, yes ?

 

2. Thats why you have unions and a choice of career.

 

3. No you wouldn't, as  if it were BR most trains were slam door... it would probably be the opposite, and require special training relating to sliding doors.

 

Thing is, Darwins laws teach us, adaption is they key to survival.
Those who don't adapt can become extinct.

Adaption is also known as compromise.

Sometimes, it is required.

Edited May 8, 2021 by adb968008

[SteveyDee68]

I'm actually quite happy that the units have all been taken off duty and are being checked over, because this is proactive management of a situation rather than reactive (compare New Zealand's government's handling of the pandemic to that of the government of the UK for a prime example of the distinction between those two approaches).

 

I have no idea what the scale of incident would be if one of these cracks "went critical" at high speed ... would the carriage body leave the bogie entirely, the carriage shake itself (and anybody inside) to pieces from undampened vibrations, or would it be like having a suspension spring fail on a car? Whatever the 'worst case scenario' might possibly be, the good news is that it has not been allowed to manifest itself.

 

I am sure there will be much wrangling over who is to blame, but at least we haven't seen a disaster like the collapsing elevated section of motorway in Brazil* to alert us - too late - to a problem.

 

Steve S

 

* I think it was Brazil - I may have misremembered!

[phil-b259]

7 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

Thing is, Darwins laws teach us, adaption is they key to survival.
Those who don't adapt can become extinct.

Adaption is also known as compromise.

Sometimes, it is required.

 

It might have done in times gone by - but that was before a certain profession discovered blaming others for letting idiots be idoits was extremely lucrative. Where there is blame there is a claim and all that.....

[adb968008]

8 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

It might have done in times gone by - but that was before a certain profession discovered blaming others for letting idiots be idoits was extremely lucrative. Where there is blame there is a claim and all that.....

When fire services went on strike, Green goddesses appeared.

When covid came, private ambulances were commandeered.

When civil emergencies occurs the army can be called.

When volcanoes explode the navy was commandeered.

When war breaks out cruise ships were requisitioned.

When cars break, rentals cars can be called.

 

When trains break, everyone makes a brew and puts there feet up, quotes the rule book and becomes an expert on why not.

 

however,

 

I have hopes that those doing their job, will do it... the experts, who are probably too busy to be in this room, will gather something i’m sure, and the next 24 hours will reveal.

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said:

I'm actually quite happy that the units have all been taken off duty and are being checked over, because this is proactive management of a situation rather than reactive (compare New Zealand's government's handling of the pandemic to that of the government of the UK for a prime example of the distinction between those two approaches).

 

I have no idea what the scale of incident would be if one of these cracks "went critical" at high speed ... would the carriage body leave the bogie entirely, the carriage shake itself (and anybody inside) to pieces from undampened vibrations, or would it be like having a suspension spring fail on a car? Whatever the 'worst case scenario' might possibly be, the good news is that it has not been allowed to manifest itself.

 

I am sure there will be much wrangling over who is to blame, but at least we haven't seen a disaster like the collapsing elevated section of motorway in Brazil* to alert us - too late - to a problem.

 

Steve S

 

* I think it was Brazil - I may have misremembered!

 

My understanding is that the cracks will not cause the train to disintegrate at high speed.

 

Its rather a case that the cracks around the jacking points prevent critical maintenance being undertaken due to the danger of structural failure under load and that lack of maintenance is where the concern lies.

 

Of course if you can't jack vehicles up there is also the little mater of how do you recover it if it comes off the rails in a low speed derailment say.

 

 

Incidentally the cracks around the way dampers on the CAF units have seen a number of units lose their yaw damper entirely and are now restricted to 75mph max.

[ColinK]

Will the Kato N gauge Azuma now be delayed, perhaps while cracks in the mazak are investigated?

[adb968008]

17 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

My understanding is that the cracks will not cause the train to disintegrate at high speed.

 

Its rather a case that the cracks around the jacking points prevent critical maintenance being undertaken due to the danger of structural failure under load and that lack of maintenance is where the concern lies.

 

Of course if you can't jack vehicles up there is also the little mater of how do you recover it if it comes off the rails in a low speed derailment say.

 

 

Incidentally the cracks around the way dampers on the CAF units have seen a number of units lose their yaw damper entirely and are now restricted to 75mph max.

Are these units lifted up that often to cause cracks ?
 

or

is the crack representing itself in a location of a strong point as a result of  a greater than expected force being imposed at a weaker point that manifests itself at the point of greatest resistance  ?.. if that stress force is generated from motion.. that would be a problem to continued use wouldnt you agree ?

It might not fall apart whilst moving, but if you cant lift it at a strong point without considerable damage.. its equally a bit useless.

 

is it just a case of identifying an issue, benchmarking it across the fleet and the monitoring it going forwards for a future decision ..maybe its within a certain tolerance ?

 

Ironically 800109 only emerged last week for testing following its rather high impact low speed incident.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by adb968008

[surfsup]

There seems to be some suggestion that this could be a design flaw within the Hitachi AT family, as 2 of ScotRail's 385s are now out of traffic after showing similar symptoms (one 385/0 + one 385/1). The 385s seem to use the same bolster / bracket design and as a precaution and a result of the wider issues, Hitachi is also conducting testing on those as well. 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

35 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

When fire services went on strike, Green goddesses appeared.

When covid came, private ambulances were commandeered.

When civil emergencies occurs the army can be called.

When volcanoes explode the navy was commandeered.

When war breaks out cruise ships were requisitioned.

When cars break, rentals cars can be called.

 

When trains break, everyone makes a brew and puts there feet up, quotes the rule book and becomes an expert on why not.

 

however,

 

I have hopes that those doing their job, will do it... the experts, who are probably too busy to be in this room, will gather something i’m sure, and the next 24 hours will reveal.

 

 

 

I suggest you re-read what "Hobby" wrote as they put it far better than I could. The railway defines standards, they are enshrined in law and very strictly enforced by HMRI and other authorities. The staff involved are not being deliberately obstructive, they are following what they are told to do. Staff in every safety critical role everywhere on the railway are trained in what they do, and we don't cut corners or bluff our way into delivering a safe service with an "it'll be OK" attitude. The modern railway requires a modern approach, and that includes managing the liability towards our passengers and colleagues and ensuring every bit of paperwork is done before any task is carried out. You expect some kind of blitz spirit where we just string together a few old trains out of scrapyards and get on with the job- the gulf between what you think is possible and what is actually possible is immeasurable. 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by fiftyfour fiftyfour

[brianthesnail96]

30 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

When fire services went on strike, Green goddesses appeared.

 

And people died as a result. 

 

If you're going to throw the rule book out of the window you might as well just say run the things cracks and all and see what falls off instead. Probably not as interesting for the spotters as all the fantasy "what ifs" flying around though. 

 

[APOLLO]

3 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

The 195/331 issue is failure  and cracking of the body where the yaw damper bracket is bolted in a T-slot arrangement. (There are a few images available online - https://www.google.com/search?q=class+195+suspension+failure&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiLxo_z47rwAhXNWxUIHc7wAhoQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1366&bih=657 )

 

The 80x issue reads as weld failure where a bracket is welded to the body.

 

Absolutely frightening pictures. Brand new trains. Not fit for purpose. heads MUST roll.

 

 

 

 

Brit15

[adb968008]

1 minute ago, brianthesnail96 said:

 

And people died as a result. 

 

If you're going to throw the rule book out of the window you might as well just say run the things cracks and all and see what falls off instead. Probably not as interesting for the spotters as all the fantasy "what ifs" flying around though. 

 

Really ?

 

more people died because there was a fire engine that was green, than there would have been killed had there been no fire engine at all, due to the strike ?

 

Are you sure ?

 

Coming back to the cracks... if the cracks are deemed intolerance, they could continue in service, but monitored.

It would seem from initial suggestions a timeline based on stress over time pattern is emerging... which means, as is suggested by LNER’s timetable tomorrow, the newer ones could continue run upto a certain point in time or mileage.

 

 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

Suggestions elsewhere that a plan B for GWR is forming to keep people moving.

Details as yet unconfirmed but 387s beyond Didcot possible and Castle sets to Reading.

 

 

Just about possible to do a "two halves" service divided at Didcot, there are some "West" crews that sign as far as Didcot so in theory could work Cattle Class HST from the West/South Wales/Bristol to there with passengers forward on a 387. I did ask and Class 387s are not allowed west of Didcot in passenger service as that stretch is not approved for DOO operation, and no guards exist that sign 387's. 

 

The most workable solution is probably to concentrate the "passed as OK" Class 800's on an hourly Reading-Bristol, hourly Reading-Cardiff and hourly Reading-Exeter on the basis that Class 345's (of which there are 20+ spare per day) and Class 387's can do Reading-Paddington, and west of Exeter/west of Cardiff there are other TOCs and/or other tractions which can probably deal with the current loadings. Probably best to send all the Oxford passengers to Marylebone, or get them to change at Reading into XC.

 

 

[brianthesnail96]

8 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Really ?

 

more people died because there was a fire engine that was green, than there would have been killed had there been no fire engine at all, due to the strike ?

 

Are you sure ?

 

 

No, people died because, well, mostly politics, but also because someone decided that it would be alright to use fundamentally the wrong tool for the job (Goddesses are pumps, not emergency response fire engines) with insufficiently trained crews. Royal Irish Rangers Charles McLaughlin and Hugh Thompson lost their lives as a result. 

 

In that situation it was probably still the right thing to do. Unlike fire brigades, trains not running is not life and death.

[Miss Prism]

Low tech yaw and vertical damper attachments, with M16 and M12 nuts and bolts:

 

 

[surfsup]

25 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

Absolutely frightening pictures. Brand new trains. Not fit for purpose. heads MUST roll.

 

 

 

 

Brit15

Slight point of note - the bottom two appear to be the CAF affected units, but the green one certainly isn't British - Quite possibly Irish Rail? 

 

I'm not sure if the West Fleet HSTs can run up to Didcot - I have a feeling Swindon was their limit as GWR in their wisdom had removed them from the safety case into Paddington. That and some of the Bristol crews still sign them. 

[Afroal05]

There won't be any novelty 2+4 workings for anyone to get excited about, certainly not tomorrow anyway.

There is a plan written around something as small as about 10 80X units in traffic with services Paddington - Swansea, Paddington - Exeter, Swindon - Bristol shuttle.

2+4s will take the strain in Devon and Cornwall, 387s in the Thames Valley, Turbos on North Cots and West fleet Turbos/158s no doubt scattered about filling in where they can.

 

I don't think a serious plan has even been assessed for the week, it has all been about figuring out what can and can't run with these cracks and then tearing apart the timetable for tomorrow.

 

I have heard crackpot theories about 57s running everywhere, 2+4s running everywhere and LSL running trains all over the GWML. I have heard none of that seriously from internal sources. Clearly the sectional appendix might tell you 2+4s can run virtually anywhere but the Statement of Compatibility will tell you otherwise, they're cleared where they already run and virtually no further.

Could 387s run beyond Didcot? Well there was one rumours about them being used as special event reliefs as far west as Cardiff so clearly the idea has been considered although you'd have to rush through a new method of working for those (as eluded - guard's on them etc).

As for the 57s? Simply not enough crew to start running them all over the network plus they still have slam door stock which is regarded as the work of the devil these days and someone would presumably have to grant emergency dispensation for them to suddenly start running passenger services.

 

I may well be proven wrong with a little bit of the theories above but I think at the moment suggestions these things are happening is little more than speculation! Resources et al are scrambling around desperately as it is to rehash crew to cover any amended plans without trying to plan up new and exotic solutions.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Afroal05
Clarity of wording.

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

When fire services went on strike, Green goddesses appeared.

When covid came, private ambulances were commandeered.

When civil emergencies occurs the army can be called.

When volcanoes explode the navy was commandeered.

When war breaks out cruise ships were requisitioned.

 

Note a key difference - none of this actions were undertaken by private companies, they were all undertaken by the Government with the result of the Government bearing the ultimate burden (via lawsuit or otherwise) if anything went wrong.

 

And none of them involve the transportation of large numbers of the public in a transit capacity and the resulting safety issues that result from that.

 

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

When cars break, rentals cars can be called.

 

Individual transportation has different rules.

 

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

When trains break, everyone makes a brew and puts there feet up, quotes the rule book and becomes an expert on why not.

 

Better example - when an airliner gets grounded for safety reasons, schedules go out the window - just as on the railway.  The airlines don't just go to a boneyard and grab anything and start flying it the next day...

 

 

[InterCitySpud]

Send them all to Vic Berry.

 

These horrible plastic things drain any last remaining pleasure out of train travel. Shitachi.

[TomScrut]

6 hours ago, surfsup said:

Slight point of note - the bottom two appear to be the CAF affected units, but the green one certainly isn't British - Quite possibly Irish Rail? 

 

I'm not sure if the West Fleet HSTs can run up to Didcot - I have a feeling Swindon was their limit as GWR in their wisdom had removed them from the safety case into Paddington. That and some of the Bristol crews still sign them. 

 

I agree. Top one isn't an 800 from what I can see, bottom two look like the pics regarding the Northern 195/331s.

 

2 hours ago, InterCitySpud said:

These horrible plastic things

 

I thought given the subject of the conversation you'd know they were made from aluminium.

[jamie92208]

8 hours ago, brianthesnail96 said:

 

No, people died because, well, mostly politics, but also because someone decided that it would be alright to use fundamentally the wrong tool for the job (Goddesses are pumps, not emergency response fire engines) with insufficiently trained crews. Royal Irish Rangers Charles McLaughlin and Hugh Thompson lost their lives as a result. 

 

In that situation it was probably still the right thing to do. Unlike fire brigades, trains not running is not life and death.

As a police officer who worked through the fire and ambulance strikes of the mid 70's people probably did die but the deaths and poorer medical outcomes were not easy to pinpoint. Our divisional ambulance was a Mk2 LWB transit with bench seats, 1 wood and canvas stetcher plus me with a first aid certificate, a small 1st aid kit and a driver. No formal paramedic training and certainly no resuscitation equipment. We did our incompetent best and got some thanks for our efforts but in no way did we provide an efficient  service.  I also watched the army fire crews do their best with the Green Godesses but they had similar feelings to us.

 

I am sure that many competent, highly professional and dedicated people are doing their best to try and run a service on the GWML ECML TPE etc but I would not expect them to run a service with stock that needed proper maintenance  and crews who needed refresher training.  I wish those involved all the best.

 

Jamie

Edited May 9, 2021 by jamie92208

[MarkC]

8 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Low tech yaw and vertical damper attachments, with M16 and M12 nuts and bolts:

 

 

M'yes, but looking at the photos posted by Apollo, the mounting bolts didn't fail; it's the mounting bracket on the body that's torn off. That's the worry. The bolts, if made of the correct material/grade, will be the least of the problems here.

 

Mark

[Gilbert]

10 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Not on GWR there aren't

 

In any case I imagine drivers based at the London end don't have the required traction knowledge to drive HSTs now anyway.

 

Crews from the south west up to Bristol might because of the 'Castle' mini HST sets

Some services are being split between Castle HSTs and 800s see 1A80

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/EXD/2021-05-09/1110-1115?stp=WVS&show=passenger&order=wtt

Services from South west travelling via Westbury then Swindon with shuttles from Swindon to Bristol

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Gilbert