Hitachi trains grounded

[Michael Hodgson]

15 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Although it can be a serious safety risk when a driver takes an unsuitable route, as the recent spate of double decker buses hitting railway bridges shows.

 

Just ask the Mayor how to carry more passengers ... 

[APOLLO]

Tomorrows Flying Scotsman !!!

 

[woodenhead]

If the Hitachi trains are relying too much on the yaw dampers and putting excess stress on the joints, perhaps the answer is even stiffer suspension so the trains don't roll as much.

 

Then of course we would need comfy seats installing for the passengers and shock absorbing tables........

Edited May 9, 2021 by woodenhead
Missing the word 'table'

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Tomorrows Flying Scotsman !!!

 

This is what happens when unions get too much of their own way and demand not only a secondman, but a thirdman, a fourthman, a fifthman.......

[Michael Hodgson]

2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

 

Then of course we would need comfy seats installing for the passengers and shock absorbing ........

Only in steerage.  First class passengers are equipped with larger and more shock absorbent backsides.

[Hobby]

4 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

This is what happens when unions get too much of their own way and demand not only a secondman, but a thirdman, a fourthman, a fifthman.......

 

And the guy on the buffer to drop the sand on the line!

[Reorte]

10 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

And only partly tongue in cheek: should part of the specification of a new train include the "driver interface" so that there is as little variation as possible? I know that changes to design (eg bimodes) over time make differences inevitable, but there could certainly be specific requirements, for example, for the position and method of operation  on the control panel of common items and minimum requirements for visibility from the cab (thinking of recent comments on here about a new EMU class) - or is there already? In other words, reduce the amount of familiarisation needed when new stock is introduced.

 

It would be interesting to know the reasons for why it doesn't happen and what the problems are, from an outsider's perspective (although I'm guessing even with identical controls train performance between classes might still be so variable that getting used to that could be a large part of training?) Is it simply that the equipment changes too much over time and thus the inevitable mode of operation changes too much? How much is down to being familar with where a control is and how much with what it does and how, why, when and where it's needed?

[Gilbert]

42 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Reports coming in that ScotRail have found cracks on some of their Hitachi Class 385s.  Subject to confirmation.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/scotrail-trains-found-to-have-cracks-3229781

[flapland]

Also reports on other forums, although without source that TPE have pulled them all again. 

[Dunsignalling]

20 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

It would be interesting to know the reasons for why it doesn't happen and what the problems are, from an outsider's perspective (although I'm guessing even with identical controls train performance between classes might still be so variable that getting used to that could be a large part of training?) Is it simply that the equipment changes too much over time and thus the inevitable mode of operation changes too much? How much is down to being familar with where a control is and how much with what it does and how, why, when and where it's needed?

One word answer: Computer.

 

The HST is a fifty-year old design evolved from even older types; it doesn't have or need one and the IET wouldn't function without several.

 

Cars are have changed in much the same ways, but most of the controls are designed to look and (apparently) work the same. The culture in rail design doesn't need to conform to old conventions because those who operate it are specifically trained on the new forms of traction.

 

John

Edited May 9, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Coryton]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

One word answer: Computer.

 

The HST doesn't have or need one and the IET it wouldn't function without several.

 

Cars are have changed in much the same ways, but most of the controls are designed to look and (apparently) work the same. The culture in rail design doesn't need to conform to old conventions because those who operate it are specifically trained on the new forms of traction.

 

Anyone know what the situation is with locomotives in North America?

 

They seem to have a lot more standardisation than we do.

 

 

[Hobby]

According to the BBC news report I've just watched they say the checks will have been completed today. Then we may have some idea how bad it is. 

[Kris]

3 minutes ago, Eddie R v2.0 said:

Just a number of points on this. 

 

3-the reliance on a single type of train for a TOC is not good. 

 

This has been happening for a very long time however. The HST was the only long distance express on the Great Western line for nearly 20 years. Had a problem as serious as this one arisen during this time, the challenges faced by the TOC would have been just the same. 

[fezza]

I think this will raise questions about whether it was sensible to rely on one type of train for whole networks and mainlines. As others have said, we can't bring back HSTs very easily. And was it really wise to send Mk3  stock to the scrapyard?

 

I understand the financial and political difficulties of "spare stock" retention but for the first 140 years of British  railways older stock was retained for emergencies and for special services - and it still is in many other countries that view railways as an essential strategic national asset. There is more than one way to run a railroad. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by fezza

[Hobby]

But as Kris said the HST was a mainstay for many years so it's nothing new... Having one class of train has advantages such as driver/guard training is easier, stocks of spare parts easier, if one fails it's easier to rescue if the train behind is the same class, etc. I feel the advantages outweigh the disadvantages except for the spotter who will get bored quickly!

 

The main thing is ensuring they are fit for purpose, but I'd suggest to is too early to make that judgement in respect of the 8xx classes.

[Dunsignalling]

12 minutes ago, fezza said:

I think this will raise questions about whether it was sensible to rely on one type of train for whole networks and mainlines. As others have said, we can't bring back HSTs very easily. And was it really wise to send Mk3  stock to the scrapyard?

 

I understand the financial and political difficulties of "spare stock" retention but for the first 140 years of British  railways older stock was retained for emergencies and for special services - and it still is in many other countries that view railways as an essential strategic national asset. There is more than one way to run a railroad. 

There is indeed, but the one that's been chosen in the UK isn't designed to finance a Plan B.

 

Since privatisation (and, progressively, in the lead up to it) the 'B 'in Plan B has stood for Bus.

 

John

Edited May 9, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[jamie92208]

I remember  when the Mk4's were withdrawn for checkscafter Enschede.  They spent some time getting clearance for the 321/9's to run to London and IIRC also had to get clearance for them to run in multiple. Obviously the mk4 crews wouldn't have traction knowledge and the Aire Valley drivers wouldn't have route knowledge  beyond Doncaster so conductors would have been needed. A service of sorts was run with the 321's but it took a day to get running.

 

Jamie

[Tony Teague]

Interestingly, searches of Real Time Trains for Peterborough so far today shows only 1 cancellation, whilst Reading shows 10 - these include trains passing through, so perhaps they are getting through inspections more quickly, or finding fewer faults than anticipated?

[4630]

59 minutes ago, flapland said:

Also reports on other forums, although without source that TPE have pulled them all again. 

That may or may not be the case, but a TPE 802/2 is certainly currently working 1P25, 11.52 Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle, as I’ve just seen it passing one of the York Railcams.  

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, flapland said:

Also reports on other forums, although without source that TPE have pulled them all again. 

 
Not so,1P23 formed of one has just made an on time arrival at Newcastle.Some positive news for a change 

[Ian Hargrave]

15 minutes ago, Tony Teague said:

Interestingly, searches of Real Time Trains for Peterborough so far today shows only 1 cancellation, whilst Reading shows 10 - these include trains passing through, so perhaps they are getting through inspections more quickly, or finding fewer faults than anticipated?

 
Predictable .The LNER Azumas haven’t clocked up as much mileage 

 

The LNER website is giving clear information on the current timetable.Its GWR counterpart is chaotic in comparison 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Ian Hargrave
Adding text

[Artless Bodger]

1 hour ago, Coryton said:

 

Anyone know what the situation is with locomotives in North America?

 

They seem to have a lot more standardisation than we do.

 

 

Isn't there an AAR standard or something for loco control stands? One reason why GBRF have used the EMD control stand for the new 69s is continuity with 66s for drivers. Iirc there was also a move in the aircraft industry to standardise instrument panel layouts around WW2, at least for the major instruments (probably only for the military), as I've read plenty of comments about aircraft having haphazardly positioned instruments. 

[Ian Hargrave]

21 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
Not so,1P23 formed of one has just made an on time arrival at Newcastle.Some positive news for a change 

And 9S11 Newcastle to Edinburgh formed of another is ready to depart 

 

[Artless Bodger]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

There's an old engineering solution to something that doesn't work.  Use a bigger hammer!

Please can we get some welders in and mend these trains with a larger lump of metal.

 

Some years ago I heard of a conference of railway technicians who were discussing why the 1/2" bolts that hold brake pads on kept shearing despite all the calculations that they were strong enough.  

A voice from the back of the hall said Why don't we just drill them out to 5/8"?  

Apart from Roger Ford's observations about the proximity of electronics etc to the welds, are there not specific procedures that have to be observed when welding, especially aluminium sections and extrusions, to avoid changing the crystal structure of the metal in the surrounding metal? 

[G-BOAF]

4 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

To be checked. Some are now running as far as I am aware.

 

 

And who would drive them? Would all the drivers with all the TOCs be trained in HSTs, or would there be a crack team of commando drivers that are signed on all the routes?

Either - I can't imagine a 6-monthly refresher on HSTs would be that much of an issue; you could have one set (rotating through the warm stored pool) that is constantly offering refresher courses. If Virgin managed it with the 90+Mk3s for a few years, it can't be impossible.

Also given the vast majority of drivers and conductors have many decades of experience on the HSTs, it will be like riding a bike.  I'd quite happily get into an HST driven by someone who hasn't driven one for a few years/months, as long as they know the route and had long term past familiarity. Its not as if they will forget the kinnetics of an HST vs an IEP - the driving positions etc are very different so less risk of momentarily forgetting you are in one vs another type of train. And it would only be for a few weeks, so the risk of a major accident (risk x time) would be minimal.

 

 

4 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Have you thought how big that fleet would have to be to run a meaningful service? How much it would cost just to have it sitting there, probably for years, before it's needed? How much it would cost to have enough staff trained up to work them? Are you prepared to pay the extra needed by the ticket price increase?

 

(As someone has already pointed out it was the Gov who did the technical specs for these new trains, so blaming the TOCs, though a kneejerk reaction, isn't fair on them!

 

 

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

And if you were still commuting now, how would you feel about paying an extra 10 or 15% for your ticket when everything was working just fine, to finance such a strategic reserve for when the brown stuff does hit the whirly thing?

 

John  

 

Why would i have to pay more? The savings would come from a) not having to issue compensation for journey's not taken (i.e. compensation for delays and cancellations should be properly enforced and automated), and would also be paid as a pool by rolling stock manufacturers/leasors, again against the cost of compensation for when things go wrong.

 

As noted either here or on railforums, if this had happened pre COVID the economic consequences would have been HUGE, and far more than the cost of a strategic reserve of trains. I'm not saying that it would cover all stock, but a fleet of 30 could, for example cover half the LNER service and about 25% of the GWR service at the same time. Plus if they were 9-car units they would have higher capacity than when HSTs were in squadron service.

 

The fact is there should never be a situation where around half of the intercity service in the UK is down due to a fault. This is unprecedented. Heck when the Bulleid Pacifics were withdrawn for inspection after the crank axle failure, there was spare capcity on hand (e.g. V2s) to cover for them. This short of flexability existed in the 1950s and there is no reason it should not exist today, except for the requirements for any spare cash to profit shareholders with passengers paying the price when things go wrong.

Edited May 9, 2021 by G-BOAF