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Many classic car owners have been aware of the issue with Aluminium/Steel connections for a long time.  Just wonder if too many assumptions have been made in the designs of all of these modern rolling stock that are experiencing problems.

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1 minute ago, AMJ said:

Many classic car owners have been aware of the issue with Aluminium/Steel connections for a long time.  Just wonder if too many assumptions have been made in the designs of all of these modern rolling stock that are experiencing problems.

Seems unlikely in this day and age.

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Galvanic corrosion must be well understood these days, most ally trains have steel cab fronts... the 387's have their's Huck-bolted to the ally chassis, presumably with some sort of barrier between them.

 

Andy G

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30 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Is there scope to use a layer, e.g. mastic, between the surfaces, and sleeves on bolts or similar to reduce the metal to metal? 

Yes there is there are mastic type solutions which prevent the corrosion as I have used some during the rebuild of my Land Rover which has an Ally body and steel chassis. Anywhere where steel had met aluminium had corroded and the ali was just white powder, rather worrying around the seat belt mounts...

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3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

GW seem to have a partial West of England 8xx service this morning.

 

First up that's running is: 08.15 Pz, 11.10 ExD. and has been reported off Penzance.

 

There are a couple on the down too.

 

 

There have been no 80X movements beyond the three units that are working RDG-NWP today. Nothing is cleared to move beyond the three units I mentioned last night. The services that have run have been 2+4s. 1A80 0815 Penzance - 'Paddington' ran to Plymouth with GW15 (2+4).

 

All of the units that outstabled on Friday night at Oxford, Hereford, Exeter NY, Penzance, Gloucester* and two at Worcester are still stranded in those locations until a concession can be granted for one move to a depot. This might be at 5mph only(!)

 

There is no clear answer as to what a fix is going to be or how long it will take. Worst case estimates suggest this might be going on for a very long time.

 

Clearly it is still a very fluid situation, one moment GWR might have 47 units tomorrow and the next 8 and then the next it might just be the three that are chugging around at the moment.

 

387s can be seen doing training between Didcot and Swindon today and it is hoped that when a service can be run with these that it will be 12 car formations.

 

Yaw Damper cracks are clearly still a problem, on Friday (when Joe Public wouldn't have been any the wiser) there were about half a dozen units stopped for yaw damper reps. When I last reported that GWR had five units this was subsequently dropped to three because of yaw damper cracks. To rub salt in the wounds one of those three units has a diesel only restriction and it will need to make a brief fuel stop today before coming back into traffic.

 

Dark times and a very murky road ahead for all on the Western.

 

*800021 was in service when the decision was made to stop the fleet and terminated at Gloucester pending inspection - which it failed.

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5 hours ago, uax6 said:

Up here in the forgotten part of Norfolk, we have seen an influx of 387 units over the last week or so (Did the May timetable change happen somewhere else, as nothings changed here?). Trying to pin-point where these units have come from is tricky (theres a red 387 2xx running around

 

The red 387s are the Gatwick Express units, not required for their normal function so transferred north of the Thames to enable the last 365s to be withdrawn. As you say, the 365s' status might change now however ! 

 

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There is no SPECIFIC problem of corrosion between aluminiun and steel, THERE IS A GENERAL PROBLEM between any two different metals (and sometimes even different alloys).  This is known as Galvanic Corrosion ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

 

And has been taught to engineering students since at least the early 60's (and known about before).

 

There are lots of "get rounds", but a basic knowledge of the "Galvanic Series" and "Anodic index" will guide designers,  see ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

 

All this should be basic bread-and-butter knowledge to a designer.

 

.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Coryton said:

If we could lay out all the standard coaches like the ones that a few sets (used to?) have in one coach with all the seats in bays round tables matching up with the (nice large) windows I think they'd feel like a completely different train.

 

Whereas I, normally travelling alone, very much prefer an airline seat for personal space and privacy ! The Voyagers are a mix of airline and table seats which should provide a choice (depending on busyness of course !)

 

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Just now, phil gollin said:

.

There is no SPECIFIC problem of corrosion between aluminiun and steel, THERE IS A GENERAL PROBLEM between any two different metals (and sometimes even different alloys).  This is known as Galvanic Corrosion ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

 

And has been taught to engineering students since at least the early 60's (and known about before).

 

There are lots of "get rounds", but a basic knowledge of the "Galvanic Series" and "Anodic index" will guide designers,  see ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

 

All this should be basic bread-and-butter knowledge to a designer.

 

.

 

 

The issue was raised on here in response to a suggestion that the suspect aluminium sections should be beefed up with steel reinforcement.

 

There was no implication of it being a design or construction factor in the defects.

 

John

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11 minutes ago, Afroal05 said:

There have been no 80X movements beyond the three units that are working RDG-NWP today.

 

On the other hand LNER seem to be much less seriously affected (despite still warning people not to travel!) - looking at the Real Time Trains line up for York this morning their trains all seem to have run, and with 80x type units.  One or two that I noticed were 5 car sets (or 5 car sets coupled) where one might have expected a 'long' set.  Are they less serious affected than GWR, because their sets were introduced later and have run fewer miles?

 

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1 minute ago, caradoc said:

 

Whereas I, normally travelling alone, very much prefer an airline seat for personal space and privacy ! The Voyagers are a mix of airline and table seats which should provide a choice (depending on busyness of course !)

 

 

 

Voyagers are almost entirely airline seating, with a VERY small number of tables (in standard).

 

The choice unless the train is nearly empty is almost always between an airline seat or another airline seat.

 

I agree that a mix is good - an airline seat is often preferable - but my point still stands. The coaches with a traditional arragement round tables - and lining up with the windows - makes a Voyager feel like a competely different train.

 

Ideally in my view - if capacity wasn't an issue - would be a sensible mix of airline and table seats, with appropriate spacing for them to all match up with the windows. This might also give you a large enough seating pitch for people to be able to comfortably use laptops in an airline seat.

 

Of course nothing can be done about the cramped nature of the tilt profile.

 

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44 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Seems unlikely in this day and age.

 

Seems VERY likely in this day and age - look at Boeing (lots of info on the web). Accountants have the say these days, not engineers.

 

Brit15

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29 minutes ago, Afroal05 said:

 

There have been no 80X movements beyond the three units that are working RDG-NWP today. Nothing is cleared to move beyond the three units I mentioned last night. The services that have run have been 2+4s. 1A80 0815 Penzance - 'Paddington' ran to Plymouth with GW15 (2+4).

 

All of the units that outstabled on Friday night at Oxford, Hereford, Exeter NY, Penzance, Gloucester* and two at Worcester are still stranded in those locations until a concession can be granted for one move to a depot. This might be at 5mph only(!)

 

There is no clear answer as to what a fix is going to be or how long it will take. Worst case estimates suggest this might be going on for a very long time.

 

Clearly it is still a very fluid situation, one moment GWR might have 47 units tomorrow and the next 8 and then the next it might just be the three that are chugging around at the moment.

 

387s can be seen doing training between Didcot and Swindon today and it is hoped that when a service can be run with these that it will be 12 car formations.

 

Yaw Damper cracks are clearly still a problem, on Friday (when Joe Public wouldn't have been any the wiser) there were about half a dozen units stopped for yaw damper reps. When I last reported that GWR had five units this was subsequently dropped to three because of yaw damper cracks. To rub salt in the wounds one of those three units has a diesel only restriction and it will need to make a brief fuel stop today before coming back into traffic.

 

Dark times and a very murky road ahead for all on the Western.

 

*800021 was in service when the decision was made to stop the fleet and terminated at Gloucester pending inspection - which it failed.

 

Wow, what a mess :( Really don't envy anyone involved in trying to get it sorted and something resembling a service going again.

 

 

Regarding galvanic corrosion, my first "introduction" to it was when I learned that Morris Minor travellers have an aluminium rear roof - hence the rubber strip separating it from the roof over the front seats (and the body it sits on is timber) - which means it makes a REALLY good radio aerial!

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1 minute ago, 31A said:

 

On the other hand LNER seem to be much less seriously affected (despite still warning people not to travel!) - looking at the Real Time Trains line up for York this morning their trains all seem to have run, and with 80x type units.  One or two that I noticed were 5 car sets (or 5 car sets coupled) where one might have expected a 'long' set.  Are they less serious affected than GWR, because their sets were introduced later and have run fewer miles?

 

As maybe...but for the best LNER current situation I suggest you look on their website. There are no services north of Edinburgh and KX-LDS service is severely curtailed. As has been posted earlier here,it seems that two 91sets are in preparation for a return to service over the next two days to cover the Yorkshire service.No quick fix here too I imagine though because Azumas are newer I imagine the impact probably won’t be as severe but nonetheless tough enough. For the GWR and its passengers, crews and maintenance personnel this is developing into a calamity and not of their making. Wonder what the bill for all this will finally be....and who will pay. 

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2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Is there scope to use a layer, e.g. mastic, between the surfaces, and sleeves on bolts or similar to reduce the metal to metal? 

 

When we joined ally vent trunking or funnels to steel combings or decking, both surfaces were painted with yellow chromate and then some sort of yellow gunge (I can't remember its proper name) was then applied to one surface, the two pieces fitted together and secured with zinc plated nuts, bolts and washers.  During a mid life refit a proportion of the interfaces would be split and checked for corrosion, if the corrosion level was above the specified level, then additional interfaces would be checked.

 

I don't know what was used to join the ally superstructure to the steel hull. I know that some were patched up when we sold them on.

 

The air intake spray elimiators were a problem area on gas turbine ships, but I think salt had a fair bit to do with it.

 

 

Edited by Siberian Snooper
poor punctuation
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1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

 

Accountants have the say these days, not engineers.

 

And for any who consider this to be a peculiarly British malaise ...

 

A story of another fleet of European high speed trains from a few years back:

 

https://dutchreview.com/featured/fyra-the-dutch-high-speed-rail-debacle/

 

If you don't have time to read it all, this should give you a flavour:

 

Facing security concerns and strong criticism from passengers and politicians alike, the Fyra was suspended indefinitely on January 18th [2013] - a little over a month since it first began servicing the originally envisioned route between Amsterdam and Brussels. Dutch Railways held manufacturer AnsaldoBreda responsible for the technical issues; AnsaldoBreda maintained that the issues were minor and would be resolved in a matter of days. However, a day later on January 19th it was announced that the technical issues with AnsaldoBreda’s V250 trains were not going to be addressed any time soon. At this point, 9 trains had already been delivered and the HSA had already paid €100 million euro to AnsaldoBreda, whilst the National Society for Belgian Railways had paid €35 million, ensuring that a lengthy legal battle between the manufacturer and the operators is ahead.

 

After some contemplation, the National Society for Belgian Railways dissolved their contract with AnsaldoBreda. On May 31st, the company’s CEO presented an impressive list of technical issues that engineering firms Mott McDonald and Concept Risk found with AnsaldoBreda’s V250 trains:

  • Large-scale problems with the infiltration of water in the trains;
  • Erosion and rustiness around the trains’ axels’, with rust appearing on one particular axis after just a few kilometers had been travelled;
  • Poor fitting of the hydraulic and electrical cables onto the trains (these were placed on the bottom of the train, allowing it to incur damage due to the weight of the trains)
  • Technical differences between the various train sets, since the mechanics had each manufactured the train sets in their own ways;
  • Problems with the braking system, which was designed for speeds of up to 160 kilometers per hour, and not approved for use at speeds of up to 250 kilometers per hours (moreover, the wintry circumstances required an even lower speed, since the brake path was longer in wintry conditions)
  • The batteries, which are located under the passenger cabs, could ignite. There have been images of damage that occurred after a battery caught fire near the Dutch town of Watergraafsmeer. One image shows a burnt carpet on the floor of a passenger cab.

(The Italian manufacturer AnsaldoBreda (an inexperienced newcomer to the industry) won the contract to supply the trains for the new service. After requesting qualifications from a host of train builders, AnsaldoBreda was eventually selected because of their competitive pricing. The price per seat of their trains was about half that of Siemens’ ICE trains, or Alstom’s TGV trains.)

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1 hour ago, caradoc said:

 

The red 387s are the Gatwick Express units, not required for their normal function so transferred north of the Thames to enable the last 365s to be withdrawn. As you say, the 365s' status might change now however ! 

 

387201 and 203 have already come across to Hornsey. 202 and 204-206 will be following shortly, but unlikely to be before the timetable change. 

 

There have been a few 700s and 387s swapping diagrams recently due to the works at King's Cross, but as they're now drawing to a close, I think they're going back to normal. 

 

365s finish on Friday evening. 

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8 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

And for any who consider this to be a peculiarly British malaise ...

 

A story of another fleet of European high speed trains from a few years back:

 

https://dutchreview.com/featured/fyra-the-dutch-high-speed-rail-debacle/

 

If you don't have time to read it all, this should give you a flavour:

 

Facing security concerns and strong criticism from passengers and politicians alike, the Fyra was suspended indefinitely on January 18th [2013] - a little over a month since it first began servicing the originally envisioned route between Amsterdam and Brussels. Dutch Railways held manufacturer AnsaldoBreda responsible for the technical issues; AnsaldoBreda maintained that the issues were minor and would be resolved in a matter of days. However, a day later on January 19th it was announced that the technical issues with AnsaldoBreda’s V250 trains were not going to be addressed any time soon. At this point, 9 trains had already been delivered and the HSA had already paid €100 million euro to AnsaldoBreda, whilst the National Society for Belgian Railways had paid €35 million, ensuring that a lengthy legal battle between the manufacturer and the operators is ahead.

 

After some contemplation, the National Society for Belgian Railways dissolved their contract with AnsaldoBreda. On May 31st, the company’s CEO presented an impressive list of technical issues that engineering firms Mott McDonald and Concept Risk found with AnsaldoBreda’s V250 trains:

  • Large-scale problems with the infiltration of water in the trains;
  • Erosion and rustiness around the trains’ axels’, with rust appearing on one particular axis after just a few kilometers had been travelled;
  • Poor fitting of the hydraulic and electrical cables onto the trains (these were placed on the bottom of the train, allowing it to incur damage due to the weight of the trains)
  • Technical differences between the various train sets, since the mechanics had each manufactured the train sets in their own ways;
  • Problems with the braking system, which was designed for speeds of up to 160 kilometers per hour, and not approved for use at speeds of up to 250 kilometers per hours (moreover, the wintry circumstances required an even lower speed, since the brake path was longer in wintry conditions)
  • The batteries, which are located under the passenger cabs, could ignite. There have been images of damage that occurred after a battery caught fire near the Dutch town of Watergraafsmeer. One image shows a burnt carpet on the floor of a passenger cab.

(The Italian manufacturer AnsaldoBreda (an inexperienced newcomer to the industry) won the contract to supply the trains for the new service. After requesting qualifications from a host of train builders, AnsaldoBreda was eventually selected because of their competitive pricing. The price per seat of their trains was about half that of Siemens’ ICE trains, or Alstom’s TGV trains.)

Fortunately in this case the issues were discovered early before the full fleet had been received and the stock to be replaced was still available and could be quickly brought back.  Here, the whole fleet is "in service" and those replace either turned into razor blades or on their way to that fate.

 

Perhaps coincidental, but that Italian Ansaldo/Breda plant was later acquired by Hitachi and was responsible for building the Class 802 variant.

 

Edited by Mike_Walker
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I see that GWR are saying "As a result we have had to cancel a significant number of long-distance train services today, Monday 10 May, and expect disruption to continue into tomorrow, Tuesday 11 May.  "

 

While I'm sure that's true, given the current state of affairs it seems a bit of an understatement.

 

Like saying "More than one of our trains is out of service"

 

They do go on to say

"The problem continues to be investigated by Hitachi and once trains have been checked and cleared, we hope to be able to release them back into service as soon as possible. A further update will be provided in due course. "

but overall their phrasing - and the fact that journeys with tickets dated for this week can only be postponed until Sunday - would give me a very different idea of how long the disruption might last than the impression I get from reading this forum.

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5 minutes ago, Coryton said:

I see that GWR are saying "As a result we have had to cancel a significant number of long-distance train services today, Monday 10 May, and expect disruption to continue into tomorrow, Tuesday 11 May.  "

 

While I'm sure that's true, given the current state of affairs it seems a bit of an understatement.

 

Like saying "More than one of our trains is out of service"

 

They do go on to say

"The problem continues to be investigated by Hitachi and once trains have been checked and cleared, we hope to be able to release them back into service as soon as possible. A further update will be provided in due course. "

but overall their phrasing - and the fact that journeys with tickets dated for this week can only be postponed until Sunday - would give me a very different idea of how long the disruption might last than the impression I get from reading this forum.

You don't air your dirty washing in public and nor do you over sell the impact as you don't know how quickly things may improve (or not).

 

PR is about saying enough to let the public know there is an issue, but not spelling out every last impact and certainly don't make promises you may not keep nor lose custom by stating things will be bad for weeks or months.  There will be timetable planning now being worked out to deliver a service, which may not be perfect but will get the public travelling with a less than optimal number of sets.

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2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

You don't air your dirty washing in public and nor do you over sell the impact as you don't know how quickly things may improve (or not).

 

PR is about saying enough to let the public know there is an issue, but not spelling out every last impact and certainly don't make promises you may not keep nor lose custom by stating things will be bad for weeks or months.  There will be timetable planning now being worked out to deliver a service, which may not be perfect but will get the public travelling with a less than optimal number of sets.

 

Well statements like "expect disruption to continue into tomorrow, Tuesday 11 May." would normally mean that they expect things to be pretty much back to normal on Wednesday.

 

Unless I'm being fed a lot of misinformation here, the chances of that are essentially zero and I don't see what's gained by giving the impression otherwise.

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

Well statements like "expect disruption to continue into tomorrow, Tuesday 11 May." would normally mean that they expect things to be pretty much back to normal on Wednesday.

 

Unless I'm being fed a lot of misinformation here, the chances of that are essentially zero and I don't see what's gained by giving the impression otherwise.

 

 

Well it may not be a very nice service they begin running, but they will work to deliver something even if it is just a load of buses.

 

If they continue to turn people away then more revenue is lost

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