Hitachi trains grounded

[MarshLane]

5 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

The obvious (and therefore probably wrong) answer is that some of the coaches in a bi-mode are heaver than in a pure electric.

 

 

Having followed all this thread, I'm still non the wiser. What is the problem with running a train with cracks, if there's no safety implication to the train itself? Bits flying off and hitting something?

 

Yes. If the lifting bracket was to detach as the train was passing a platform at speed (for example) it could kill or seriously injure people.  There is the same issue with level crossings, track workers etc. 

 

There may be other issues, but that is the key one as I understand things.

Edited May 10, 2021 by MarshLane

[31A]

11 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Weren't the bodies built in Japan for the trains to be assembled at Newton Aycliffe?

 

I think that was the case originally, but more recent trains have been built completely at Newton Aycliffe (I'm not sure of which Classes).  But that is what they said; being a local news programme they didn't go into a lot of detail, and didn't qualify that statement by saying which Classes they were referring to!

[Coryton]

2 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

 

Yes. If the lifting bracket was to detach as the train was passing a platform at speed (for example) it could kill or seriously injure people.  There is the same issue with level crossings, track workers etc. 

 

Then they just need to fit a safety chain to stop them going flying if they come off.

 

(Note: in case it's not obvious, I am not making a serious suggestion).

[TheSignalEngineer]

3 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
With the greatest respect....as widespread as this ?

At the time I was working on WCML upgrades and actually in a meeting at Euston when the Hatfield crash happened. I was travelling regularly between London, Birmingham and Manchester and it was absolute chaos for weeks. One night I caught a train at about 1800 from Euston to Manchester, the previous two having been cancelled. I stood all the way to Macclesfield and the train finally arrived in Manchester just in time for my last local home departing at 2318.

Many services were reduced to 50% of the normal timetable due to increased journey times as a result of the blanket 80mph and localised lower speed limits imposed.

[black and decker boy]

11 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

 

Yes. Although the 802s for GWR, TPE and HT were built in Italy.

Some were assembled in Japan & shipped as fully finished trains (both GWR & TPE)  whereas others were assembled in Italy so quite a mix across the 3 fleets.

[MarshLane]

7 minutes ago, 31A said:

I think that was the case originally, but more recent trains have been built completely at Newton Aycliffe (I'm not sure of which Classes).  But that is what they said; being a local news programme they didn't go into a lot of detail, and didn't qualify that statement by saying which Classes they were referring to!

 

The welding aspect at Newton Aycliffe which allows them to do the build (almost completely) only came into use in March this year, and its the EMR / Avanti 8xx trains that will be the first to be 'constructed' rather than 'assembled' here.

Have a read of this if anyone wants to know more

 

[black and decker boy]

15 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

I think that was the case originally, but more recent trains have been built completely at Newton Aycliffe (I'm not sure of which Classes).  But that is what they said; being a local news programme they didn't go into a lot of detail, and didn't qualify that statement by saying which Classes they were referring to!

AFAIK The aluminium stir-friction-welding is not yet up & running at NA. The bodies for the First Group OAO services to Edinburgh were built abroad and shipped for final assembly as they have been pictured being unloaded and stored in an industrial estate awaiting the call to NA. Similarly, the bodies for Avanti fleet are arriving from Japan. It’s been published that Hitachi hope to have the new equipment installed & producing bodyshells for the last56 vehicles of the Avanti order see here

https://www.railinsider.co.uk/2020/07/04/first-bodyshells-for-avanti-west-coasts-new-trains-arrive-in-the-uk/

Edited May 10, 2021 by black and decker boy
Link added

[Gilbert]

1 hour ago, Banger Blue said:

There were originally 3x 800 out on the Reading - Newport shuttle but one (014 I think) failed an inspection after having gone back to Stoke Gifford (planned visit).

 

014 is in there somewhere....as far as I could tell it was cancelled at Newport and ran to BPW empty before retreating to Stoke Gifford.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/24256/2021-05-10/detailed

Edited May 10, 2021 by Gilbert

[HillsideDepot]

Probably a red herring, as there are several different build processes (Japan only, Japan & UK, Italy) here and all seem to be affected, but the designs and stress analysis etc would have been done on the basis of a complete vehicle, moving on rails.

 

However, what about the stresses imposed by being lashed to a ship for a few weeks at sea, and then being transported by lorry in the UK? And how do the forces of being lifted from ship to lorry compared with being lifted on a coordinated set of jacks at a depot, as they were designed to be?  

 

Could that have caused the initial weakness and the problem is now becoming visible as mileage is accrued? I'm probably way off, but the thought occurred.

 

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, MarshLane said:

The ongoing change in numbers is, I am told, because the cracks are VERY difficult to see.

 

Don't they use ultrasonics to test for cracks?

[Davexoc]

25 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

Don't they use ultrasonics to test for cracks?

 

Axle testing was ultrasonics, but that is something fairly long and plain. The signal coming back will show the changes in diameters being reflected, whereas something like they are looking at is more complex with webbing. Not saying it can't be done, but you would have to start with a good one to know what to expect to see, and there don't seem to be very many of those at the moment.

 

Crack detection sprays were/are used. You used to see locos with white patches on the bogies, which is the penetrant developer left after checking. Pink/red lines in the white would be cracks showing up. The 08s had checks around the main generator mountings using the same stuff too IIRC.

[Trog]

5 hours ago, caradoc said:

.........

And whereas on the night shift we might normally get one or two emergency speed restrictions imposed, now we got ten a night. The whole sorry business had a devastating effect on the railway and, among other things, contributed greatly to rail almost totally losing the Royal Mail traffic. 

 

 

It was a strange time so many speed restrictions on the Fasts that all the expresses were running on the Slows and the freight on the Fasts. Shows how deeply ingrained normal is, as it generated a unsettling feeling of wrongness. Also when you took a block to check a section of line, so strange to hear the signalman almost begging that please will you give it back to me after the inspection is done.

[MarshLane]

3 hours ago, Gilbert said:

P

014 is in there somewhere....as far as I could tell it was cancelled at Newport and ran to BPW empty before retreating to Stoke Gifford.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/24256/2021-05-10/detailed

Hi Gilbert,

The unit worked 1L18 to Bristol Parkway (vice Reading) and the service cancelled for a planned visit to Stoke Gifford Depot that was unconnected with the current issues. It was expected to pick up its return service 1B17 1413 Reading-Newport from Bristol Parkway around 1500, but during the visit, a check was made and defects (the current issue I believe) were found causing the set to be failed and confined to depot.

 

Rich

[MarshLane]

2 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

Don't they use ultrasonics to test for cracks?

Hi Bill,

I can’t answer that, don’t know enough about ultrasonics, but the answer given by @Davexoc sounds logical to me.

 

Rich

[Pandora]

Under which exam schedule or type were the cracks reported?  Is it a major depot-level exam?

Does it require a strip down such as a body lift from the bogies to reveal the metalwork which may be failing?

[Andrew Young]

10 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

The obvious (and therefore probably wrong) answer is that some of the coaches in a bi-mode are heaver than in a pure electric.

 

 

Having followed all this thread, I'm still non the wiser. What is the problem with running a train with cracks, if there's no safety implication to the train itself? Bits flying off and hitting something?

As well as bits falling off and killing people. If the lifting points are cracked, you can’t lift the body up to maintain the equipment underneath. 
 

Andrew

[Hobby]

Having bits falling off a train doesn't sound to healthy for those of us passing them at speed in the other direction either, good way to derail a train...

[5944]

1 hour ago, Pandora said:

Under which exam schedule or type were the cracks reported?  Is it a major depot-level exam?

Does it require a strip down such as a body lift from the bogies to reveal the metalwork which may be failing?

They were found on Friday evening during a quick pitstop check from what I can gather. As the cracks are in a similar location to the ones found the other week, it makes sense that the fitters are being more vigilant checking for cracks on the bolster. From what I've read elsewhere, there aren't many visible cracks, but when they're inspected via NDT or whatever method they're using, the welds are riddled with cracks. It's not going to be a quick fix. 

 

To do any welding on an aluminium bodied train, all the electrical and electronic equipment has to be disconnected first. I've seen one vehicle from a class 387 have derailment damage repaired on the end of the coach. Half a day job to cut out the damaged metal, weld in a new piece and make good. It took about 2 days beforehand to strip out the coach and unplug everything! Then it's all got to be plugged back in again and boxed up, then all tested. It was a week, just got one coach. GWR have 91 units of out action at present. 

[Siberian Snooper]

I have done dye penetrant crack detection, it's not a quick procedure, the paint has to be removed and then surface cleaned and degreased, you then apply the red dye and leave it for a period before wiping it off and then apply the white developer and then wait a fixed period for the penetrant to seep out of the crack(s) if there are any. It was around 30 years ago and if I remember correctly the actual process takes around 45 minutes, plus the paint removal time. So that could be up to 3 hours a coach assuming 4 jacking points.

 

Someone also needs to come up with an approved repair solution and get it implemented, this is not going to be a quick fix, with the number of agencies that will have a finger in the approval pie. A stop gap solution could be to drill stop and weld, but that would need approval and would only be a temporary solution. Drill stop, is where the ends of the crack are drilled and then the crack is then ground out and the crack is then welded up. One would need to know what is on the other side for it to be feasible.

 

 

[MarkC]

3 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

I have done dye penetrant crack detection, it's not a quick procedure, the paint has to be removed and then surface cleaned and degreased, you then apply the red dye and leave it for a period before wiping it off and then apply the white developer and then wait a fixed period for the penetrant to seep out of the crack(s) if there are any. It was around 30 years ago and if I remember correctly the actual process takes around 45 minutes, plus the paint removal time. So that could be up to 3 hours a coach assuming 4 jacking points.

 

Someone also needs to come up with an approved repair solution and get it implemented, this is not going to be a quick fix, with the number of agencies that will have a finger in the approval pie. A stop gap solution could be to drill stop and weld, but that would need approval and would only be a temporary solution. Drill stop, is where the ends of the crack are drilled and then the crack is then ground out and the crack is then welded up. One would need to know what is on the other side for it to be feasible.

 

 

Correct re the dye pen, SS.

 

End drilling the cracks to stop the crack extending is indeed a 'quick fix' - it stops the end of the crack being a stress concentration - but you still have the problem of stripping the interior, disconnecting electrics etc before welding.

 

This is not going to end soon - or end well for some bank account(s)...

[Shedmaster]

Hi All, Good Morning,

 

Could I ask what the issues are with regards to welding a vehicle please? Simple description preferred....
 

On some of the ARC/YEOMAN ‘JHA’ wagons I used to work with, there was ( I think ) a label stating something like ‘before any welding, phone this number’. So, considering that was a vehicle withOUT any sophisticated electronics or computers, why does it matter? Obviously, I can appreciate you wouldn’t just take the risk of damaging this stuff but I suspect there is some sort of risk attached to the welding process?

 

Many Thanks in advance,

 

Kindest Regards,

 

Shed.

[Gilbert]

Contingency plans are emerging....

[Ian Hargrave]

34 minutes ago, 5944 said:

They were found on Friday evening during a quick pitstop check from what I can gather. As the cracks are in a similar location to the ones found the other week, it makes sense that the fitters are being more vigilant checking for cracks on the bolster. From what I've read elsewhere, there aren't many visible cracks, but when they're inspected via NDT or whatever method they're using, the welds are riddled with cracks. It's not going to be a quick fix. 

 

To do any welding on an aluminium bodied train, all the electrical and electronic equipment has to be disconnected first. I've seen one vehicle from a class 387 have derailment damage repaired on the end of the coach. Half a day job to cut out the damaged metal, weld in a new piece and make good. It took about 2 days beforehand to strip out the coach and unplug everything! Then it's all got to be plugged back in again and boxed up, then all tested. It was a week, just got one coach. GWR have 91 units of out action at present. 

To say nothing of the LNER Azumas ,the status of which little is known except that there are the same reductions in service according to their website. The planned replacement of a 91 powered set happened with an early morning working from Leeds. Some LDS-KX workings are 5 car Azumas with a caveat on the website to that effect.

[5944]

2 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

To say nothing of the LNER Azumas ,the status of which little is known except that there are the same reductions in service according to their website. The planned replacement of a 91 powered set happened with an early morning working from Leeds. Some LDS-KX workings are 5 car Azumas with a caveat on the website to that effect.

LNER have 31 units available for 48 diagrams, plus the Mk 4 set that's out today. Only four 5-car bimode units though, hence why they're not running anything away from the wires. 

[Mike_Walker]

As of this morning LNER have 31 sets available:  4 x 5-car 800 bi-modes,  7 x 5-car 801 and 20 x 9-car 801electrics.

 

A GWR manager has posted this explosive critique on WNXX this morning:

 

“The whole country is adversely affected in some way. LNER is going to be the one with most to lose because they will have airlines picking up many of the passengers lost. Quite a few of us campaigned against these things from day one. They are a massive burden on the industry. The Govt. derived purchase and maintenance contract over 27 years is a money pit. Foisted on us by corrupt, yes, corrupt senior civil servants who landed themselves nice little earners as non exec directors with Hitachi Europe on retirement. The NAO (after the fact of course) reporting that competing companies were prevented from bidding effectively because the DfT obstructed them from doing so. The lies were pointed out again and again to inexpert Transport secretaries, the worst being Villiers, thick as two short planks that bloody woman.
 

It has been a continual battle to get Agility trains to do the basics on servicing. Train crew have been very pro-active in reporting defects, and it is a fact GWR was told to keep quiet about their lease deal for the 802s because it made the DfT look absolutely inept for what is being paid for the 800s. In addition, GWR 802s are not tied into any 27 year straitjacket.
 

I mentioned a few weeks ago that a GWR Director told us that the prospect of running the railway if TOCs were not involved had absolutely terrified the DfT. One of those reasons was the horrendous cost of the Hitachi contract. When the EMAs started, it was clear the DfT had not a clue how much money was being extracted from the industry and why. Actually, extorted would be a better word to use. The trains themselves are a disgrace. Rough riding? Compared to an HST they are a theme park ride passing over certain sections. A former depot manager coming from Penzance to London commented on his Facebook page that he thought his train had derailed near Taunton a few weeks ago due to the banging from under the floor. No matter how dire these things have been, Agility Trains trousers hundreds of millions of pounds each year that frankly it does not deserve.
 

Ironic how four class 91s were towed along the GWML yesterday on the way to the scrapyard.
 

What I would like to see, but no doubt won't, following a conversation with a GWR engineer who had actually seen the extent of the damage and how rapidly it was spreading, is the cancellation of further orders of this type of train. In his view the structure is just too weak to take the strain of working on UK infrastructure. It's built to minimum spec. at maximum price. The affected parts were described as 'non-structural' by Hitachi, but in his opinion could have resulted in a high speed detachment of material and / or a derailment. A criminal case in the making.”

 

Knowing something of what goes on away from the public view, I can not disagree with a word he says.  What view Mark Hopwood will make of this remains to be seen!