Hitachi trains grounded

[Gilbert]

Why am I not surprised....

[roythebus1]

There's a photo doing the rounds on a private railway staff FB group that shows one unit where the yaw damper (I think it's called) detached from the body underside, with what appears to be the bogie frame fractured. The item is a lengthways shock absorber. I have a relative who is a railway fleet engineer and he says they have been aware of this problem for over 6 weeks.

 

If there's any Lost Boys on here (Phil b?) you can see the picture on that group.

[boxbrownie]

15 hours ago, rab said:

Local paper excels again:

 

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/no-indication-great-western-railway-5394671

 

Can't even get a picture of the right train.

Although, admittedly it does say “A Great Western train”........

[roythebus1]

[ess1uk]

It’s ok

Jeremy Vine is going to sort it out today on Radio 2

[boxbrownie]

13 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Went to Leeds today, was there for an hour and saw three different Azumas. 

 

 

Too tight! We never got south of Exeter for ages. 

Not a good day for a bit of train spotting at Liskeard then? 

 

I’ll go for a paddle instead....

[Mike_Walker]

1 minute ago, roythebus1 said:

That's been discussed elsewhere.  It's one on Irish Rail's Mk4 sets built by CAF.

[Hobby]

1 minute ago, boxbrownie said:

Not a good day for a bit of train spotting at Liskeard then? 

 

I’ll go for a paddle instead....

 

 

We went round the museum in Exeter, very good it was as  well!

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, Shedmaster said:

 

Could I ask what the issues are with regards to welding a vehicle please? Simple description preferred....
 

Oxymoron I'm afraid.

 

GMRT2100, EN12663, EN15085 and ISO3834 are good bedtime reads if you have nothing better to do ...

 

(apologies if I'm insulting your intelligence at all. Welding technology is a complex subject and many clever people make careers out of it - quite legitimately. I only know enough to bow to the knowledge of the true experts)

[Ian Hargrave]

Report in Business Section of Daily Telegraph that Govt.ministers are demanding Hitachi pay compensation. Inevitably,the knives are out.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Ian Hargrave
Text error

[jamie92208]

6 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Report in Business Section of Daily Telegraph that Govt.ministers mare demanding Hitachi pay compensation. Inevitably,the knives are out.

As predicted  many pages ago, Sue Grabbit and Run are going to make a fortune and extract even more money from the industry. However will any DfT staff lose money or honours. I won't hold my breath.

 

Jamie

[Oldddudders]

ISTR that the 158s were BR's first MUs with aluminium shells, and there was a lot of difficulty in their construction by BREL, including Sunday press items allegedly quoting a frustrated project manager. At least the design and construction seem to have weathered the first 30 years quite well.

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, Mike_Walker said:

As of this morning LNER have 31 sets available:  4 x 5-car 800 bi-modes,  7 x 5-car 801 and 20 x 9-car 801electrics.

 

A GWR manager has posted this explosive critique on WNXX this morning:

 

“The whole country is adversely affected in some way. LNER is going to be the one with most to lose because they will have airlines picking up many of the passengers lost. Quite a few of us campaigned against these things from day one. They are a massive burden on the industry. The Govt. derived purchase and maintenance contract over 27 years is a money pit. Foisted on us by corrupt, yes, corrupt senior civil servants who landed themselves nice little earners as non exec directors with Hitachi Europe on retirement. The NAO (after the fact of course) reporting that competing companies were prevented from bidding effectively because the DfT obstructed them from doing so. The lies were pointed out again and again to inexpert Transport secretaries, the worst being Villiers, thick as two short planks that bloody woman.
 

It has been a continual battle to get Agility trains to do the basics on servicing. Train crew have been very pro-active in reporting defects, and it is a fact GWR was told to keep quiet about their lease deal for the 802s because it made the DfT look absolutely inept for what is being paid for the 800s. In addition, GWR 802s are not tied into any 27 year straitjacket.
 

I mentioned a few weeks ago that a GWR Director told us that the prospect of running the railway if TOCs were not involved had absolutely terrified the DfT. One of those reasons was the horrendous cost of the Hitachi contract. When the EMAs started, it was clear the DfT had not a clue how much money was being extracted from the industry and why. Actually, extorted would be a better word to use. The trains themselves are a disgrace. Rough riding? Compared to an HST they are a theme park ride passing over certain sections. A former depot manager coming from Penzance to London commented on his Facebook page that he thought his train had derailed near Taunton a few weeks ago due to the banging from under the floor. No matter how dire these things have been, Agility Trains trousers hundreds of millions of pounds each year that frankly it does not deserve.
 

Ironic how four class 91s were towed along the GWML yesterday on the way to the scrapyard.
 

What I would like to see, but no doubt won't, following a conversation with a GWR engineer who had actually seen the extent of the damage and how rapidly it was spreading, is the cancellation of further orders of this type of train. In his view the structure is just too weak to take the strain of working on UK infrastructure. It's built to minimum spec. at maximum price. The affected parts were described as 'non-structural' by Hitachi, but in his opinion could have resulted in a high speed detachment of material and / or a derailment. A criminal case in the making.”

 

Knowing something of what goes on away from the public view, I can not disagree with a word he says.  What view Mark Hopwood will make of this remains to be seen!

 

 Whow - just Whow !!!!. Very interesting, and from the top.

 

Everything touched by government (of all colours) ends up a right expensive mess. I can only say one thing - FOLLOW THE MONEY.

 

Brit 15

[30368]

If I may add, we took the wrong turn some time ago. Privatisation has de-skilled Britain's railways by removing a centre of Engineering excellence (Derby RTC), running down our railway manufacturing base and lastly tieing TOCs into long term maintence contracts with train suppliers with the resultant loss of "in house" maintenence facilities and skills. As to the train leasing and franchising arrangements.......

 

I was involved with the withdrawl of the class 321 from Euston - Birmingham sevices due to loose wheel brake discs. Fortunately we had our own skilled maintenence team at Bletchley and help from the Leasing Company and rectified the fleet ahead of plan. We were also able to short lease some stock to fill some of the gaps. Privatisation had not at that stage (2001??) undermined joined up railway thinking. I should add that the Minister at the time took a day to day and intelligent interest in our progress.

 

Sorry to go on! I wish the TOCs involved a speedy resolution to this problem.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

Edited May 11, 2021 by 30368

[Shedmaster]

32 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Oxymoron I'm afraid.

 

GMRT2100, EN12663, EN15085 and ISO3834 are good bedtime reads if you have nothing better to do ...

 

(apologies if I'm insulting your intelligence at all. Welding technology is a complex subject and many clever people make careers out of it - quite legitimately. I only know enough to bow to the knowledge of the true experts)

Hi,

 

Thanks for your reply, I knew it was a risky question. I’m not insulted at all, I can see there’s a whole science behind this as let’s face it, welding is all around us in our everyday lives and in many critical scenarios bearing weight/loads etc.

Many Thanks anyway,

 

Shed.

 

[Legend]

1 hour ago, ess1uk said:

It’s ok

Jeremy Vine is going to sort it out today on Radio 2

 

Well it'll make a difference from the disease of the day  as they always seem to run some depressing  healthcare story . A far cry from Jimmy Young I'm afraid . Remember when we used to have the "Legal Beagle"?

[Bernard Lamb]

23 minutes ago, Shedmaster said:

Hi,

 

Thanks for your reply, I knew it was a risky question. I’m not insulted at all, I can see there’s a whole science behind this as let’s face it, welding is all around us in our everyday lives and in many critical scenarios bearing weight/loads etc.

Many Thanks anyway,

 

Shed.

 

At one time part of my job was to test welders and approve them.

 There are so many different materials and processes that very few people ever have more than a very limited knowledge. The notice on the wagon is to prevent anyone from going near it with the wrong skills or equipment.

I once had to help set up a welding bay for welding stainless steel. Out of 6 very good welders who were interested in working in the bay only one was able to pass the test. It did involve the use of very different materials in respect of thickness and profile.

One lecturer at The Welding Institute would get potential weld designers to sign their name with a welding rod on a piece of 25mm plate. It did make them think in  a practical way. I tended to give candidates material at the other extreme. Weld a 3mm steel plate onto a length of 1.2mm wall thickness tube. It took most people several attempts to manage it without blowing a hole in the tube or even melting it completely.

Bernard

[Flittersnoop]

Given that nothing is ever 100% safe, I wonder what the risks would be of allowing the units to operate with a maximum speed of (say) 70mph would be? At least a service of sorts would be possible.

[APOLLO]

Couple of photos of the CAF EMU weld failure April this year. Very concerning. A chunk out of the body suggests more than a weld failure. This type of failure would not be safe at 1mph.

 

 

 

Brit15

[boxbrownie]

9 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Couple of photos of the CAF EMU weld failure April this year. Very concerning. A chunk out of the body suggests more than a weld failure. This type of failure would not be safe at 1mph.

 

 

 

Brit15

That looks like a T “nut/headed bolt” tightened into the aluminium channel under the body, no weld failure just the ally section walls have failed.

 

Hard to say accurately without being there of course.

Edited May 11, 2021 by boxbrownie

[nightstar.train]

8 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Couple of photos of the CAF EMU weld failure April this year. Very concerning. A chunk out of the body suggests more than a weld failure. This type of failure would not be safe at 1mph.

 

 

 

Brit15

 The CAF failure is different to the Hitachi problem. The brackets for the yaw dampers on the CAF trains are bolted into slots in the body. These slots are failing and the bracket is ripping away. 

[Ian Hargrave]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Although, admittedly it does say “A Great Western train”........

 
It would be interesting ( to say the very least ) if some of the more astute sections of the media got their investigative teeth into this saga. Maybe a Panorama special and C4 News ?

[boxbrownie]

20 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
It would be interesting ( to say the very least ) if some of the more astute sections of the media got their investigative teeth into this saga. Maybe a Panorama special and C4 News ?

It might be interesting, if and only if of course it was due to some negligence or skullduggery.

 

Otherwise it’s just a failure of a design/specification process.

[uax6]

48 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Well it'll make a difference from the disease of the day  as they always seem to run some depressing  healthcare story . A far cry from Jimmy Young I'm afraid . Remember when we used to have the "Legal Beagle"?

 

Mr Vine is a terrible broadcaster, not a touch on JY, and seems to have an editiorial staff that is equally badly informed, his program is the only one of R2 that actually makes me want to throw the radio down the box steps....... I'm guessing they will wheel in Christian Wholmer as well, another badly informed fool. Roger Ford would be the bloke I'd call.

 

Andy G

[St Enodoc]

2 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

It might be interesting, if and only if of course it was due to some negligence or skullduggery.

 

Otherwise it’s just a failure of a design/specification process.

As far as I can tell, at the moment we have no idea whether it's a specification, design, material, manufacturing, maintenance or some other problem.