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Hitachi trains grounded


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18 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

AND more than a bit concerning seeing how so much these days is web dependant 24/7. If the web ever gets "nuked" then I can't even begin to imagine the problems.

 

Brit15

And the amount of critical infrastructure that is controlled via the Web and is therefore open to being hacked, should be a cause for concern.

 

To cite a topical example, is it really necessary for a pipeline do be so operated, or is it just done that way for convenience or cheapness?

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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59 minutes ago, Sabato said:

Not quite waffle. The new  Blue trains had a number of problems with transformers catching fire (as did some other modernisation electrification stock elsewhere IIR). The change over from steam to electrics had only just happened so, on a railway yet to be rationalised, there was plenty of siding space to store stock locally before scrapping. Trouble was, the local "lads" couldn't resist the non-ferrous fittings on the coaches braking and heating systems.... :whistle:    There was a bit of a scramble to find replacements, which delayed things a bit.

Yes - including two transformer explosions one of which seriously injured two passengers and the Guard  - apart from causing considerable damage, to the train;  three 'nbangs' on one trains with associated fumes;  and two other transformer failures which resulted in serious damage to the transformers involved.

 

the first explosion occurred during shadow running in October 1960 while the second explosion occurred on 13 December, there were two further transfomer failures including the one on 17 December when three 'bangs' occurred after oil f vapour had leaked.  The electric service was suspended following that, fifth, incident and not resumed until October 1961 after various modifications and trials had been successfully completed.

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17 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

Are the XC Voyagers not limited to 100mph Westerleigh Jcn-Bristol PW by physics anyway? Coming off the curve at Westerleigh assuming its still 30mph you'd have to really give it the gun and then be ready to use a lot of brake to stop at Bristol PW to top the ton between the two! They used to be allowed into Padd, probably still are but subject to restrictions on speed. The only reason the Network Measurement Train power cars are fitted with ATP (fact fans- they are the only non GWR stock to have received the GWML version of ATP) is to allow them to run full speed on those lines.

As @Supaned has said, it’s 40mph round Westerleigh. With a decent Voyager, 100mph is easily attainable before putting the brake in for Parkway (the motorway for me on a dry rail). 

 

100mph is even possible with an HST, just. 

Edited by Andrew Young
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1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Would you like to be standing trackside or as a passenger on a platform when you see a large piece of metal approaching you at 70mph?

 

So these trains are actually in danger of disintegrating? I thought the cracks were only millimetres long? From your comment it sounds like they were stopped just in time!

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25 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

Swindon today saw 2 5-car IETs and 387s plus XC shuttles..

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Well no surprises there then . The fittest IETis none other than Gareth Edwards. Poetic justice there .Keep those long passes going my son.Stay safe and keep in trim

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Just now, Ian Hargrave said:


Well no surprises there then . The fittest IETis none other than Gareth Edwards. Poetic justice there .Keep those long passes going my son.Stay safe and keep in trim

I did indeed notice...John Charles was in the forward position..

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Regardless of the technicalities of this latest problem, the bigger picture is of a rail industry where large fleets of trains are grounded by computer problems and metal fatigue, new services are delayed years by technical problems, rail routes are regularly stopped by severe weather of various kinds (whilst the road network soldiers on), everything is so complicated that it's almost impossible to redeploy resources from one route to another, causing passengers to be herded onto buses at the slightest excuse, whilst fares rise relentlessly and the taxpayer has to stump up vast sums for trains that are no faster and less comfortable than their predecessors.

 

Not a healthy industry.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

So these trains are actually in danger of disintegrating? I thought the cracks were only millimetres long? From your comment it sounds like they were stopped just in time!

 

This post upthread by @D1072 suggests cracks in the affected area(s) up to 285mm:

 

 

Simon

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50 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Mass suicides by those unable to message a friend due to FOMO?:jester:

 

 

 

More like Electricity Telecoms Gas water networks down - EVEYTHING is net dependant these days.

 

Brit15

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11 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Yes, I have been waiting for a telecoms glitch to put out the whole North Wales coast line which is now controlled from Cardiff.

Jonathan


just need the fire alarm to go off to achieve that!

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14 minutes ago, 65179 said:

 

Specific bits coming adrift. This post upthread by @D1072 suggests cracks in the affected area(s) up to 285mm:

 

 

Simon

Photo of detached bracket was of a different class of train, wasn't it? Not sure about the 28cm cracks, either. I just wondered how the risk of failure was affected by train speed - the stresses experienced at 125mph must be many times greater than at 70mph. The only train that can be 100% guaranteed not to shed bits as it goes along is one that is in a museum.

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1 minute ago, Andrew Young said:


just need the fire alarm to go off to achieve that!

Which is exactly what happened a couple of years ago.  There actually was a small fire in the Cardiff ROC.

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2 hours ago, Afroal05 said:

 

Fair point! The 57s on the sleeper don't either. However any rolling stock that is due imminently to bolster the fleet (and I'm not talking about the C2C 387s) isn't likely to go beyond Reading and the reason stated has been because it isn't ATP fitted.

I'm now trying to find what guidance I have for non ATP fitted stock on ATP fitted lines.

 

Any 125mph capable replacement without ATP can't run east of Reading on the Mains at 125mph so the reason may be as simple as that especially if they hope to maintain some semblance of a high speed timetable in the Thames Valley.  If however the GW IET fleet looks like it might be stopped for an extended period then it is possible that a 100/110 mph interim emergency timetable might be required to accommodate whatever non-ATP fitted traction they can find to supplement the 387s.  

 

The bottom line is we're all busking at the moment and until an engineering assessment is available of what is required for a return to service and thus a timescale then everything is going to be up in the air.  As I said before if this is going to be prolonged then all bets are off and we could see any one of a range of interim scenarios most of which would have seemed ridiculous a week or so ago.

Edited by DY444
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20 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

Regardless of the technicalities of this latest problem, the bigger picture is of a rail industry where large fleets of trains are grounded by computer problems and metal fatigue, new services are delayed years by technical problems, rail routes are regularly stopped by severe weather of various kinds (whilst the road network soldiers on), everything is so complicated that it's almost impossible to redeploy resources from one route to another, causing passengers to be herded onto buses at the slightest excuse, whilst fares rise relentlessly and the taxpayer has to stump up vast sums for trains that are no faster and less comfortable than their predecessors.

 

Not a healthy industry.

 

 

Really?

Every time there is a sprinkling of snow the road network grinds to a halt, cars are abandoned willy nilly etc. etc.

I can remember driving to work in the 70s in a front engined rear-wheel drive car and left a furrow in the snow where  the engine/gearbox ploughed it's way.

These days these 4x4s seem to get stuck on just a wet patch on the road!

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3 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

More like Electricity Telecoms Gas water networks down - EVEYTHING is net dependant these days.

 

Brit15

 

Yes and no.

 

Critical services are NOT run 'over the internet' - they will have their own dedicated communications circuits even if they do use the BT network to transmit the data (which has an awful lot of diverse routing possibilities).

 

However what is true is that rather than using bespoke software many of the control systems are effectively custom programmes run on a Windows PC* with updates done via USB sticks.

 

That makes it incredibly easy for a person to introduce a virus by opening a document they shouldn't when physical / electrical / computing separation between what might be termed the corporate office network (i.e. used for sending e-mails) and the networks used by the actual computers running the systems is not present, or by plugging in an contaminated USB stick to a separated system.

 

 

 

*The latest generation of signalling systems produced by Westinghouse, etc are in fact just a bunch of programs running on a Windows computer (and not the latest version either). I imagine utility and other 'vital' control systems are similar. It is secure precisely because it is never allowed to go anywhere near the 'internet' and has dedicated communication circuits. The biggest security risk is unfortunately humans plugging in a contaminated USB stick, yet those USB ports are also vital for obtaining logging data for distribution to technical experts...

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3 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

Photo of detached bracket was of a different class of train, wasn't it? Not sure about the 28cm cracks, either. I just wondered how the risk of failure was affected by train speed - the stresses experienced at 125mph must be many times greater than at 70mph. The only train that can be 100% guaranteed not to shed bits as it goes along is one that is in a museum.

 

My reference to bits coming adrift was intended to be in response to your disintegration comment rather than any reference to the CAF unit situation.  Now edited to remove this confusion. Others with firsthand knowledge will have to comment on the veracity of the information provided upthread when able.  It's the only reference I've seen to size of cracks to give any sort of answer to your question.

 

Simon

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35 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

Regardless of the technicalities of this latest problem, the bigger picture is of a rail industry where large fleets of trains are grounded by computer problems and metal fatigue, new services are delayed years by technical problems, rail routes are regularly stopped by severe weather of various kinds (whilst the road network soldiers on), everything is so complicated that it's almost impossible to redeploy resources from one route to another, causing passengers to be herded onto buses at the slightest excuse, whilst fares rise relentlessly and the taxpayer has to stump up vast sums for trains that are no faster and less comfortable than their predecessors.

 

Not a healthy industry.

 

 


Getting rail replacement buses/coaches is getting more difficult.  A legal case means all rail replacement transport has to be fully DDA compliant (in simple terms, wheelchair accessible), but there are very few coaches which can carry wheelchairs, so the alternative is a bus, all of which are DDA compliant.  So Cardiff to London on a double decker limited to 50 mph anyone?  Fortunatly there is a temporary dispensation allowing coaches to be used - but it will not last much longer.

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40 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Yes, I have been waiting for a telecoms glitch to put out the whole North Wales coast line which is now controlled from Cardiff.

 

I was under the impression that at least that was its own network and not something Internet-accessible that a good enough outsider could potentially get in to and cause chaos with at least.

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21 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

I was under the impression that at least that was its own network and not something Internet-accessible that a good enough outsider could potentially get in to and cause chaos with at least.

It would be easier than you think....

The worrying thing was that there was an incident where ESR’s disappeared from the signalling system during a data re-boot... and therefore the drivers didn’t get told.

 

Andy G

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5 minutes ago, uax6 said:

It would be easier than you think....

The worrying thing was that there was an incident where ESR’s disappeared from the signalling system during a data re-boot... and therefore the drivers didn’t get told.

 

Andy G

That was the Cambrian which is not controlled from Cardiff 

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And if it is a physical network forget about sabotage, all it needs is a careless JCB driver. I must admit though that that American pipeline business had me wondering how safe such systems are.

Of course our trains are also now full of the stuff, all very sensitive and often with out of date software and/or hardware because things more on so fast.

Jonathan

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Ah yes, but it shows that the modern systems aren’t completely fool proof... 

And l hear that NR are looking to sell off its telecoms network again, which potentially adds in other risks to data transmission.

 

Andy G

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