Hitachi trains grounded

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

Almost all of the managers and senior engineers at our place went through the company’s apprentice training scheme straight from school,

I never got as far as Uni. I did the BR S&T engineering student scheme. First thing I learned was how to dig a hole and put a crank frame into it without it moving around when the lever was pulled.  When I went to Crewe to do my workshop training one of the first things I had to do was make my own toolbox and some small hand tools. Sheet metal work, making piano hinges from a sheet of metal and a steel rod, filing bits of metal flat and square, turning, drilling, rivetting, welding, etc.

54 years on I am still using them for my hobbies and DIY.

[melmerby]

16 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The biggest security risk is unfortunately humans plugging in a contaminated USB stick, yet those USB ports are also vital for obtaining logging data for distribution to technical experts...

That can be stopped by the software installation.

Real time virus/malware etc. software will not allow it to be read, if it contains untoward files.

[caradoc]

3 hours ago, ColinK said:

cause of the problem is not known, it could be Hitatchi,  or the specification being wrong or the track. 

 

I knew it was only a matter of time before Network Rail was implicated, if not blamed. At least it's taken until Page 27 ! 

 

 

[boxbrownie]

3 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I never got as far as Uni. I did the BR S&T engineering student scheme. First thing I learned was how to dig a hole and put a crank frame into it without it moving around when the lever was pulled.  When I went to Crewe to do my workshop training one of the first things I had to do was make my own toolbox and some small hand tools. Sheet metal work, making piano hinges from a sheet of metal and a steel rod, filing bits of metal flat and square, turning, drilling, rivetting, welding, etc.

54 years on I am still using them for my hobbies and DIY.

Somewhere in the loft I still have the hinge I made on the first few metalwork lessons at secondary school, not sure the lessons are quite the same (or as practical) anymore. 

[boxbrownie]

1 minute ago, caradoc said:

 

I knew it was only a matter of time before Network Rail was implicated, if not blamed. At least it's taken until Page 27 ! 

 

 

No, no your very wrong there, pretty sure they were implicated pages back 

[St Enodoc]

15 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

Shapps has ordered the TOCs and Hitachi to come up with a plan to restore service as soon as possible.

As if that wasn't going to happen anyway...

[TheSignalEngineer]

5 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

I knew it was only a matter of time before Network Rail was implicated, if not blamed. At least it's taken until Page 27 ! 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

No, no your very wrong there, pretty sure they were implicated pages back 

Possible effects of track condition was first mentioned about 600 posts back I think.

[Supaned]

3 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

I knew it was only a matter of time before Network Rail was implicated, if not blamed. At least it's taken until Page 27 ! 

 

 

 

I did ponder some pages back whether this situation could have been down to infrastructure rather than manufacture. That's not to point the finger at Network Rail, just a thought process.

 

Consider for example , that Japanese infrastructure is by and large maintained to a far higher standard that that of the UK (and yes , I appreciate that funding and actually being able to get a possession to carry out any maintenance are both in short supply here in the UK ) , could it be that the Hitachi design doesn't take into account the condition of the p-way the train is being operated on, or the forces at play from the less than perfect trackwork ?

 

Widening this a bit , SOMETHING is causing the spate of yaw damper failures on both CAF and Hitachi units , and now , although more than likely unrelated to that , these lifting bracket cracks. It could be any number of things from poor design , poor materials , poor construction , infrastructure impacts , or any combination of those or something else entirely.

 

I think everyone in the industry would rather this was resolved in a safe and timely manner rather than just blaming each other (that's what Delay Attributions are for).

[Afroal05]

5 hours ago, Gilbert said:

Only 1 today - 800009

 

And '009 came into service late after striking a badger yesterday and needing a new skirt and cleaning. It's in traffic now.

 

800006 struck a deer and is definitely out for the rest of the day, it is hoped (with no clear idea yet) that it can be returned to service tomorrow. A 165 is out on the other diagram today but it is inevitably losing time with each journey (limited to 90mph).

 

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

I don’t believe there has actually been a photo published in this thread yet of the actual issue with the 800 class, would be very interesting to see rather than guessing.

 

I don't think I know of anyone within GWR that has, quite probably only at director and senior manager level.

 

45 minutes ago, Supaned said:

 

Nope. 

 

Whilst I can't speak for the situation at GWR, if it's anything like the TOC I am familiar with , there are still not enough drivers to run the full timetable , a combination of lapsing route knowledge due to services being curtailed as a result of the pandemic , drivers lapsed on competency due to being required to shield for the past 12 plus months on medical grounds and various other issues.

 

Added to which , most TOCs have only limited agreements for in-cab training due to the continued COVID situation. In reality this means training on a one to one basis rather than the usual one Instructor to two trainees, and a strict testing and monitoring regime. Whilst there may be drivers available to train, they all have to be done individually and there are also only a finite amount of Instructors to go around, so any training period is greatly extended in terms of time and cost. Until it's determined how long the IET situation is likely to continue for and thus what sort of resources are going to be needed to provide a replacement service and for how long, there is unlikely to be much in the way of extra staff training beyond that absolutely necessary, even more so when the DfT are clutching the purse strings.

 

Whilst there are a lot of crew about the resources managers are still scrambling around trying to cover the service. IET crews are working more 2+4 services or the 387s to/from Swindon. Swansea crew (who would generally be the booked crew on the South Wales services) lose a fair amount of time getting to Newport to work the shuttles to Reading and back. I admit i'm surprised there seems to be such a scramble but there is.

They (Resources) are also trying to crew the plan for tomorrow and get individuals diagrams amended and get everyone in the right place. You wouldn't have thought running a two train shuttle would be so challenging, but it is.

 

At the moment there is still a ban on having a second person in the cab at GWR - unless the driver agrees otherwise - and whilst trainee drivers are being put into bubbles with trainees there are still people declining this option or bubbles getting sick.

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

Almost all of the managers and senior engineers at our place went through the company’s apprentice training scheme straight from school, then LATER in their career when it was recognised it was required they attended Uni to get degrees and top up the wealth of experience (and learn how to design on a screen!).

 

In terms of university graduate vs experienced, I think a mix of both is good, and how I try and shape my team at work. The uni grads know some of the technical stuff the experienced people didn't get chance to learn, but the experienced people can still keep the grads aiming in the right direction on practicalities and why things are done in certain ways. The dynamic we get with that is "can't we do it this way" from the fresh pairs of eyes. Sometimes the answer is "no we don't because X" sometimes it is "actually, never thought about it that way".

 

Most of what happens at university in terms of engineering courses is maths, not practical because the practical comes with experience, uni is not a substitute for experience (if experience is what you want) but I don't think I know anybody who says it is. OTOH, depending on what you want the person to do, experience doesn't necessarily give you the ability to do something a uni grad could.

 

The key thing is that people over 45 who left school, went to uni and then went into the workplace are hard to come by. In 20 years time there will be loads of 55+ year olds who have the benefit of uni and a life of experience. Everything else like for like I expect 4 years at uni to be worth more than 4-6 years experience when you get to 20+ years.

 

 

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

I don’t believe there has actually been a photo published in this thread yet of the actual issue with the 800 class, would be very interesting to see rather than guessing.

 

I don't think it is fair to mock uni grads unless they bring it on themselves, some are complete know it alls and they do get tripped up pretty quickly in the real world, I on the other hand made a point of listening to the experienced guys because there is/was a lot to learn from them (unfortunately at least one I worked with isn't with us anymore).

 

Likewise with the "box of magic switches" comment you were replying to, there's generally nothing wrong with the boxes but if the people using them aren't the right people then you end up with the old adage of "BS in, BS out". In simplistic terms if you get the wrong answer you're asking the wrong question (or asking the question in the wrong way). The skill is asking the right thing which is why we don't just put anybody in front of the magic boxes.

 

I think that people's definition of "engineering" or "engineer" vary massively too, from somebody who mends washing machines to somebody designing the most complex of things proficiently on a computer (who may never touch a spanner, welding torch or angle grinder at all because that's what the welders and fitters are paid to do).

 

 

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

We had engineering graduates arrive and on a tour of the workshop that couldn’t name half of the tools laying around

 

Yep, we seem to keep getting the same CAF pics regurgitated every day or two!

 

As a generalisation (not specific in any way to this problem or the rail industry), and not directly at you @boxbrownie

 

Firstly, people are very quick to judge the engineering profession when something goes wrong, and it isn't always their fault. A lot of the time they don't decide the cost of what they have to design, how long they have to do it, what promises have been made, the information they are given to work with to do the work and they don't decide what targets are more important (time/cost/functionality) as those are normally decided by commercial people. And IF the design is perfect after all this, it doesn't mean it is executed well from a quality/manufacturing perspective. In most cases the company in general is at fault.

 

Secondly, looking at somebody elses work and critisising it is far, far easier than doing the work (perfectly) yourself.

 

I am sorry to sound like I am whinging but whenever stuff like this happens it seems loads assume the people who designed it are idiots, when they may have been given little time and money to do the work, and in 20-20 hindsight people say "that doesn't look strong enough" when 99/100 of you would never have looked at it in a station and said that before the problem was known about.

 

Engineers are humans after all, they do make mistakes, but a lot of the ones you think are theirs probably aren't purely down to them.

[caradoc]

7 minutes ago, Supaned said:

Consider for example , that Japanese infrastructure is by and large maintained to a far higher standard that that of the UK (and yes , I appreciate that funding and actually being able to get a possession to carry out any maintenance are both in short supply here in the UK ) , could it be that the Hitachi design doesn't take into account the condition of the p-way the train is being operated on, or the forces at play from the less than perfect trackwork ?

 

Would the best thing not have been to build trains suitable to run on their intended infrastructure ? After all, we have been doing that in the UK for nearly 200 years ! Perhaps that should have been in the design specification..... (or perhaps it was ?)

 

[TomScrut]

6 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Would the best thing not have been to build trains suitable to run on their intended infrastructure ? After all, we have been doing that in the UK for nearly 200 years ! Perhaps that should have been in the design specification..... (or perhaps it was ?)

 

 

Yes that's the point being made. IF the infrastructure differs from what the spec given to Hitachi then it might not be down to Hitachi.

[Titan]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

We had engineering graduates arrive and on a tour of the workshop that couldn’t name half of the tools laying around, I am sure it’s not the case but it seemed most of them had never owned a toolbox of their own before going off to Uni.

 

 

 

I suspect that could be down to the quality of University.  Where I studied for my BEng just over 20 years ago, practical skills were part of the course. In order to ensure we all owned toolboxes, everyone made one. Still use mine to this day.

[Dunsignalling]

9 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Would the best thing not have been to build trains suitable to run on their intended infrastructure ? After all, we have been doing that in the UK for nearly 200 years ! Perhaps that should have been in the design specification..... (or perhaps it was ?)

 

Exactly, and the track didn't suddenly cease to be fit for 125 mph when the IETs displaced the previous traction.

 

Either the agreed specification or the execution of it is at fault.

 

John

[Steven B]

20 hours ago, lmsforever said:

They had better not scrap anymore HST,s  or mark 4,s plus a few 91,s at least they were built properly and the seats are comfortable !

 

That'll be the Mk4 coaches that required changes to dampers and springs as the suspension was quite "lively" within a year of being built?

 

Railway history is littered with problems and faults:

Bulleid Pacifics chain driven valve gear wasn't a great success

71000 Duke of Gloucester was poor at steaming despite 100+ years of steam loco development!

First generation diesels - lets not go there.

Class 56 - Romanian built examples suffered from poor build quality.

Class 155 - problems with doors.

Class 158 - as well as the build issues mentioned else where there were problems caused by a combination of leaf fall and the units disk brakes meaning they ran in multiple with class 156 for some time following introduction.

Caledonian Sleeper - numerous issues including problems with the plumbing

 

 

Steven B.

 

 

 

[Afroal05]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

 

Which is just another way of saying what I've said twice; ie the policies in force now might be revised downstream once the likely duration and scale of the fleet stoppage becomes more definitive.

 

I am not saying plans and rules cannot be rewritten. I am saying that they will not be rewritten overnight (or anytime 'soon') and stock that is coming from elsewhere will arrive and will adhere to the current rules we are using until such a time as the people managing the train service are given new rules and guidelines to follow. I cannot expect or even hope for them to change and the suggestion that they will or might can only be speculation until it happens.

[TomScrut]

5 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

I suspect that could be down to the quality of University.  Where I studied for my BEng just over 20 years ago, practical skills were part of the course. In order to ensure we all owned toolboxes, everyone made one. Still use mine to this day.

 

When I started mine in 2005 I was told we were one of the few unis who still made students use a mill, lathe etc., and a lot if it was down to it being a H&S nightmare.

 

We didn't make a toolbox but it was excellent experience nonetheless.

Edited May 12, 2021 by TomScrut

[MarshLane]

I am hearing that a decision on returning a significant amount of the fleet back to traffic could come very soon. Likelihood being a significant amount of units back in traffic with a strict monitoring regime and potentially a  heavy speed limit.  All dependent on the ORR approving things as I understand it.

 

3 hours ago, APOLLO said:

What about Pendolinos ?  lots pass my house every day, mostly empty since covid. Can a few be used at least on the ECML ? - Or has the WCML passenger loads increased up to Glasgow & Edinburgh (passengers re routed) ?  Just a thought

Brit15

 

No they can't be moved in the short-term.  One has done an Edinburgh-King's Cross overnight test in both directions and had special dispensation if I remember rightly.  But general gauging would need to be undertaken, plus there are no crews trained on them on the ECML, LNER does not have Pendolino's on their safety documentation etc, etc, etc. This is the big problem if the issue was to go on for some time, moving stock around the country (assuming its available in the first place) is very difficult if it is not already passed for the route, and the TOC doesn't have crews trained.  

[boxbrownie]

29 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

 

I am sorry to sound like I am whinging but whenever stuff like this happens it seems loads assume the people who designed it are idiots, when they may have been given little time and money to do the work, and in 20-20 hindsight people say "that doesn't look strong enough" when 99/100 of you would never have looked at it in a station and said that before the problem was known about.

 

Engineers are humans after all, they do make mistakes, but a lot of the ones you think are theirs probably aren't purely down to them.

Agree completely, doesn’t sound like whinging but just common sense.  For example the engineers who designed the brackets and mounts (for example) must have been given a set of data of stress and life cycles that need to be accommodated, the engineers would have fed the CAD/CAM and the resulting components would be fine, what cannot be predicted is conditions which were not revealed/released or just overlooked by the commissioning customer (which could easily be another department within the same company of course) or end user.

 

Engineers and designers can only produce what’s asked of them, occasionally they cock it up but it’s quite rare.

 

As for the new boys in my post, they soon learnt and become good mates with those giving them jip, and also learnt to respect the experience passed on by the “old lags” and the old lags knew full well they themselves could never have gone through the same theoretical courses without looking like idiots.

 

I’d still like to see some pics though 

[TomScrut]

3 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

As for the new boys in my post, they soon learnt and become good mates with those giving them jip, and also learnt to respect the experience passed on by the “old lags” and the old lags knew full well they themselves could never have gone through the same theoretical courses without looking like idiots.

 

That's it. I think when young whippersnappers come in being the big "I am" it gets people's backs up too.

 

Interestingly rail is quite a closed industry that I will probably never be able to get into without completely starting afresh from the bottom due to not having the appropriate experience/credentials/memberships.

 

5 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

I’d still like to see some pics though 

 

Wouldn't we all!

[billbedford]

3 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

I don’t believe there has actually been a photo published in this thread yet of the actual issue with the 800 class, would be very interesting to see rather than guessing.

That's possibly because the cracks are difficult to actually see without specialist equipment. There's certainly been no reports  of the lose of a yaw damper bracket as on the CAF stock. 

[Afroal05]

21 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

I am hearing that a decision on returning a significant amount of the fleet back to traffic could come very soon. Likelihood being a significant amount of units back in traffic with a strict monitoring regime and potentially a  heavy speed limit.  All dependent on the ORR approving things as I understand it.

 

 

Update expected by 1800 on up to 25 units for GWR.

Writing and implementing a plan to go from 2 to 25 units overnight will be the biggest challenge. (From both a unit and a crew point of view.)

[Nimbus]

52 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Would the best thing not have been to build trains suitable to run on their intended infrastructure ? After all, we have been doing that in the UK for nearly 200 years ! Perhaps that should have been in the design specification..... (or perhaps it was ?)

 

It was a while ago in another thread around here, I believe, that someone with inside knowledge said that BR had come to the conclusion that engineering the rolling stock to perform well on less than 'perfect' track was more cost-effective overall than to keep all track perfect. Underlying this of course was the industry structure of the day, with one body overseeing both stock and track.

 

It seems not too dissimilar to the situation on Britain's roads, which are tolerated in a worse state than other countries, and imported vehicles can give quite a harsh ride. My 1991 Rover 200 is way more comfortable than my Honda Civic, which has already fractured a road spring at 20k miles. On the rails, my experience of Class 313 vs. 717 is directly analogous! Lots of shock loadings going on under the 717 units!

 

The Nim.

[boxbrownie]

11 minutes ago, billbedford said:

That's possibly because the cracks are difficult to actually see without specialist equipment. There's certainly been no reports  of the lose of a yaw damper bracket as on the CAF stock. 

Possibly, or was that a guess? 

[Mike_Walker]

4 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Possibly, or was that a guess? 

No, as I understand it they are very difficult to spot by eye.  The first instance only came to light when a fitter shone a powerful torch on it when doing something totally unconnected.