Hitachi trains grounded

[Gilbert]

I spotted the Mask out today...quick photo while I was involved in a sports event..

 

[Gibbo675]

1 hour ago, rab said:

I know I'm going to get flack for this,

 

if a car breaks down, another one can be borrowed or hired and

with a few minutes

 

if a bus or coach breaks down, it may take a bit longer to obtain

a replacement,

 

I'm not very informed with how the airline industry works, but

I guess a few more restrictions start to come in;

 

When we come to railways, the restrictions become worse.

Drivers, and other crew have to be trained up on each type of train.

 

Tin hat on, searching for a deep trench

Hi Rab,

 

If the industry had any sense, which along with lots of other industries it doesn't, operating systems along with coupling and multiple working systems would be standardised and life could be so much more simple.

I should like to hear why upon this earth that it isn't actually possible without having to listen to the usual nonsense about TOC's, regulations, unions, credentials or indeed complete lack of common sense.

 

As for, "Tin hat on and searching for a trench.", if you have something to say get on and state your truth, that is what I have just done.

 

Gibbo.

[RJS1977]

Trouble is, the moment you standardise something, you lock out any future systems which may be better,

[Mark Saunders]

6 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

Trouble is, the moment you standardise something, you lock out any future systems which may be better,

You hit the nail on the head. 4’ 8 1/2”just too narrow. 

[rodent279]

2 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

You hit the nail on the head. 4’ 8 1/2”just too narrow. 

Didn't know whether to hit Agree, or Funny for that!

[Dunsignalling]

11 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Didn't know whether to hit Agree, or Funny for that!

Maybe we need a "Too Late" button.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Gilbert said:

I spotted the Mask out today...quick photo while I was involved in a sports event..

 

You should keep your eye on the ball - hope you didn't let a goal through!

[RJS1977]

Just now, Michael Hodgson said:

You should keep your eye on the ball - hope you didn't let a goal through!

Or worse, drop a catch....

[Gilbert]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

You should keep your eye on the ball - hope you didn't let a goal through!

No balls involved....but the rowing stroke does include  a catch...

Edited May 15, 2021 by Gilbert

[APOLLO]

36 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

You hit the nail on the head. 4’ 8 1/2”just too narrow. 

 

No, it's too wide. The prototype gauge for OO would be 4' 1 1/2". If the real UK railways were this gauge we would not need EM or P4 !!!!!

 

Brit15

[RJS1977]

Well, the Saundersfoot and Padarn Railways weren't far off!

[Gibbo675]

51 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

Trouble is, the moment you standardise something, you lock out any future systems which may be better,

Hi RJS,

 

Do please explain, for as I see it should you standardise and then later invent something better then at least in the transition phase there would only be TWO standards instead of loads, and loads, and loads, and loads of incompatible nonsense as we have currently.

 

Someone better informed than me will no doubt be able to tell us all how many incompatible systems are currently [causing havoc] in use on the railways of Britain.

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

Gibbo.

[rodent279]

4 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi RJS,

 

Do please explain, for as I see it should you standardise and then later invent something better then at least in the transition phase there would only be TWO standards instead of loads, and loads, and loads, and loads of incompatible nonsense as we have currently.

 

Someone better informed than me will no doubt be able to tell us all how many incompatible systems are currently [causing havoc] in use on the railways of Britain.

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

Gibbo.

The real nonsense is that there are units out there with coupling systems that are ostensibly compatible, but in fact aren't because of something silly like electrical connections to the left instead of the right, or slightly different heights above rail level. Can't remember which it is, think it's Scharfenberg.

[RJS1977]

2 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi RJS,

 

Do please explain, for as I see it should you standardise and then later invent something better then at least in the transition phase there would only be TWO standards instead of loads, and loads, and loads, and loads of incompatible nonsense as we have currently.

 

Someone better informed than me will no doubt be able to tell us all how many incompatible systems are currently [causing havoc] in use on the railways of Britain.

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

Gibbo.

 

But... what happens if the next new idea arrives before the rollout of the previous standard is complete? 

 

Or when particular standards are optimal in one area but not others? For example, ATP works well on lines with 100-125mph line speed. But it's very expensive to install in comparison with TPWS, which works perfectly well up to around 75mph so is better suited to slower speed lines.

[ejstubbs]

3 hours ago, rab said:

I know I'm going to get flack for this,

 

Flak

[Gibbo675]

13 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

But... what happens if the next new idea arrives before the rollout of the previous standard is complete? 

 

Or when particular standards are optimal in one area but not others? For example, ATP works well on lines with 100-125mph line speed. But it's very expensive to install in comparison with TPWS, which works perfectly well up to around 75mph so is better suited to slower speed lines.

Really, how many good ideas are there in the world these days ?

 

Aluminium trains don't seem to one of them, make them out of steel, first they are cheaper to start with and second they are easier to fix if they do go clunk !

 

Its a bit like deciding to have scrambled egg on toast for lunch and then looking in the fridge half way through cooking it only to discover the Haloumi cheese* and deciding that would have suited your taste much better, along with a salad with some walnuts, at that moment.

 

You don't throw it all in the in bin, you eat the scrambled egg and have the cheese and salad another day.

 

As far as cost goes the amount the stupid government spent on a Track and Trace system that does not work would have paid for the entire system to be completely electrified. Should that amount of currency (£37bn) have been spent more sensibly then all these ridiculous bi mode trains wouldn't be amusing me for all the wrong reasons.

 

* I'm not actually middle class, I am far better than that and I eat well also.

 

Gibbo.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Gibbo675
Spelling

[RJS1977]

1 minute ago, Gibbo675 said:

Really, how many good ideas are there in the world these days ?

 

Quite a few - that's why HS1 is running in-cab signalling, much of the network has colour lights, and there are some sections which still have semaphore, whilst there are others which have RETB  because it's cheaper to operate than semaphore, but doesn't need all the bells and whistles of 140mph in-cab signalling...

 

In any case, as I see it, the 'standardisation' issues in the current problem are:

 

* Class 800s being fitted with different driving equipment (and even things like the acceleration and braking curves) compared to HSTs, which means mothballed HSTs can't just be put back into service without re-training the drivers and guards. Or perhaps we shouldn't have any changes to 1970s standards (including no electrification, as that has different power and braking curves to diesel trains).

* The 80X series is the 'standard' train for a number of operators, meaning that those operators have lost the use of almost their entire long-distance fleets, rather than having a mixed fleet with a smaller percentage of withdrawals.

[rodent279]

30 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

But... what happens if the next new idea arrives before the rollout of the previous standard is complete? 

 

Or when particular standards are optimal in one area but not others? For example, ATP works well on lines with 100-125mph line speed. But it's very expensive to install in comparison with TPWS, which works perfectly well up to around 75mph so is better suited to slower speed lines.

To my simple brain, surely it is possible for an on-train system to be clever enough to be TPWS and ATP compatible, and to be able to switch between the two as & when necessary? So therefore compatible with lower speed, TPWS equipped lines, and higher speed ATP equipped lines, and able to switch between the two on the fly.

 

Edit: or is that what happens?

Edited May 15, 2021 by rodent279

[Gibbo675]

9 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

Quite a few - that's why HS1 is running in-cab signalling, much of the network has colour lights, and there are some sections which still have semaphore, whilst there are others which have RETB  because it's cheaper to operate than semaphore, but doesn't need all the bells and whistles of 140mph in-cab signalling...

 

In any case, as I see it, the 'standardisation' issues in the current problem are:

 

* Class 800s being fitted with different driving equipment (and even things like the acceleration and braking curves) compared to HSTs, which means mothballed HSTs can't just be put back into service without re-training the drivers and guards. Or perhaps we shouldn't have any changes to 1970s standards (including no electrification, as that has different power and braking curves to diesel trains).

* The 80X series is the 'standard' train for a number of operators, meaning that those operators have lost the use of almost their entire long-distance fleets, rather than having a mixed fleet with a smaller percentage of withdrawals.

Its quite simple, pick an idea and use just that one. Do not use several all at once.

 

To put it another way, for lunch have either scambled egg on toast or Haloumi cheese with walnut salad. Do not both mixed up on the same plate at the same time with the added complication of the requirement of having to eat it with chop sticks.

 

Only an idiot would do that !!!

[RJS1977]

That is pretty much what happens. Trains which run lines covered by both systems have both systems on board. There's no switching between them as such as the systems each look out for their own transponders - TPWS looks out for its own, and ATP for its own, and the trains respond accordingly.

 

(In fact the GWML is fitted with both TPWS and ATP as TPWS was installed first, so was already there, and any units/locos limited to 75mph or less have no need for ATP),

[jamie92208]

The American railroads have one standard coupling system and as far as I know one standatd Multiple working system that has I think been around since the 1930's and still works.

 

Jamie.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by jamie92208

[Gibbo675]

4 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

The American railroads have one dtanda4d coupling system and as farcas I know one standatd Multiple working system that has I thinknbeen around since the 1930's and still works.

 

Jamie.

 

 

Quod erat demonstrandum.

[billbedford]

40 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Really, how many good ideas are there in the world these days ?

 

All the Really Good Ideas™ today seem to revolve around extracting rents from assets like IP and patents. That is the reason there are so many coupling systems and why none of the companies involved are willing to compromise. 

[phil-b259]

44 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

 

 

Aluminium trains don't seem to one of them, make them out of steel, first they are cheaper to start with and second they are easier to fix if they do go clunk !

 

 

 

Steel rusts - Aluminium doesn't

 

Steel is heavy thus imposing grater loadings on the track and requiring more power to move it along. Aluminium is light so kinder on the track and less energy intensive to run.

[Gibbo675]

13 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

That is pretty much what happens. Trains which run lines covered by both systems have both systems on board. There's no switching between them as such as the systems each look out for their own transponders - TPWS looks out for its own, and ATP for its own, and the trains respond accordingly.

 

(In fact the GWML is fitted with both TPWS and ATP as TPWS was installed first, so was already there, and any units/locos limited to 75mph or less have no need for ATP),

I know all about it, I used to fit TPWS kit along with air brake overlay systems and data recorders to steam locomotives back in the day.