Hitachi trains grounded

[APOLLO]

Better not to mention points - Diesel engines don't have points !!!!!

 

Brit15

[Gilbert]

Two units on 24/05/21. Bristol Parkway ECS for 2Y91 1600 Bristol Parkway to Weston-super-Mare from Stoke Gifford moving into PI and 1L24 1422 Swansea to London Paddington into P4.

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Gilbert

[Hobby]

20 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Don’t think XC Voyagers call at Worcester Parkway . Hence a change somewhere along the line would be necessary.it depends upon the best a available ticket as to where that would be.Most XC 220/221 on West to North turns seem now to be running in multiple and can add or detach units en route at Plymouth,Bristol,Gloucester ( strange but true as most avoid a call there except for one at least) and Newcastle . XC have redrawn their timetable and diagrams since Covid to account for social distancing.Bournemouth/Southampton services via Reading &Oxford now run to Manchester only.The Newcastle service is axed.

 

16 hours ago, iands said:

Which seems strange, as platforms 1&2 at Worcester Parkway were provided for XC services to call at. The whole idea of Worcester Parkway station was to eradicate the (then current) poor accessibility to and from London and via the Cross-Country network. The improved "connectivity" aspects were the foundations of the business case for the station.

 

16 hours ago, caradoc said:

XC services do call at Worcestershire Parkway Ian, but it is normally the Nottingham/Cardiff (Class 170) trains rather than the longer distance Voyagers; Which I do personally find strange as well !

 

13 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

No I did specifically say Voyagers.The Cardiff -Nottingham XC 170service picks up the in between bits with the 220/221 chasing their tails as far as Derby.

 

Worcester Parkway first... In the pre Covid timetable we did stop a Voyager there from what I remember, but only one in the morning peak. As far as I was aware it was never planned for the Voyager services to stop there, only the 170s, though as said it was built to accommodate a 5 car if required. We did run a service recently where they used it for connecting bus service down to CNM and Gloucester so I have at least worked to and from it for a day!

 

The problem as told to me by an old MD was that once you start stopping at every station where the stakeholders "demand" it others "demand" the same treatment so you end up with long distance intercity services becoming local services carrying short distance commuters/shoppers, the stakeholders at Kenilworth were wanting our Bournemouths to stop there at one point. We already have that in many parts of the country as it is and Voyagers are far from ideal when taking on or discharging large numbers of people as they are not designed for it (end doors vs middle doors (170s)).

 

 

I think some of the Newcastle services are back running but I'm not sure which ones and how far south they go.

 

 

The way the timetable is set up has always been to provide one train every two hours from Burton and Tamworth to Scotland and the SW, hence we alternate those two stops on the Scots and Plymouth/Penzance services. Again so people travelling long distance can minimise stops, though again during the rush hours it allows extra capacity for the Brummie commuters!

 

Sorry for the drift.

[SouthernMafia]

13 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Could this be a viable model for future services on the London-Bristol-Cardiff corridor?

387's running to Parkway, Newport/Cardiff, as an all (major) stations stopping service, leaving the 80x's to form the services to Swansea & points west. After all, 350's work similar distances on the WCML. 111 miles Padd-BPW with 4 stops should be possible in sub-1:45, even with 110mph top speed.

 

c2c 387301 spotted with 'Cardiff Central' and relevant station stops scrolling on the PIS on Reading Depot this morning...

[St. Simon]

3 hours ago, Gilbert said:

Two units on 24/05/21. Bristol Parkway ECS for 2Y91 1600 Bristol Parkway to Weston-super-Mare from Stoke Gifford moving into PI and 1L24 1422 Swansea to London Paddington into P4.

 

 

An 800 running out of Stoke Gifford on Diesel...that's another few hundred quid for Bristol Council  

 

Simon

[Steadfast]

17 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Going back to software, I'm sure there's a good reason for incompatibilities between ostensibly the same class or family of unit, but it should be possible for software revisions to be compatible with previous versions.

 

I'm sure I've read previously that the expensive to lease, DFT spec'd and Agility Trains owned 800s aren't meant to work with the cheaper to lease, First specced Eversholt owned 802s and that as such the software across the two fleets aren't necessarily at the same level. Initially the 802s were to have bigger fuel tanks and non-downrated engines as they would need it for the Devon banks, but in the end the 800s got them too.

 

@TomScrut The 800s and 801s are both Agility Trains, so probably on the same software.

 

Jo

[Afroal05]

19 hours ago, TomScrut said:

That's interesting, as I'd not have made that post had I remembered the ATP. Is it fitted to the TPE units?

 

That's interesting, and I'd be keen to know (not necessarily from you) as to why.

 

No TPE 802s do not have ATP, the rough plan had been to run them to/from the West of England and start/terminate at Reading. There was some discussion between myself and DY444 some pages back about what you could and couldn't do (and what you could do with some amended working) involving ATP.

 

19 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Vary many thanks for your extended comments and explanations, Afroal05. I only hope that pretty soon you will be able to have some rest. I shan't suggest a tour by train.

A couple of comments and thoughts.

First and minor in a way. Should the government have told the bus companies to accept rail tickets? Thoughts?

 

Perhaps, but perhaps it is expected that the rail operators will be able to successfully arrange alternative transport through the channels that would normally be used for less major disruption. It appears it hasn't worked as well as it might have been hoped here.

 

19 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

And finally, I am afraid that the message about essential travel only is no longer being preached by government. They are making a point about everything opening up. Can you blame the public for believing that it is now safe to travel? I know that too many people have been doing it all the time - including people I know who should know better - but I think that to try to enforce essential travel only now would fail completely.

Jonathan

 

I take this point completely, I have somewhat blurred the message of 'minimise travel' and made 2+2 = 5. I can understand how people want to travel about again and clearly would encourage people to use the train - fleet availability issues aside!

 

17 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Without wishing to steer this topic too far away from subject I believe most railway users have at least sufficient understanding of what points are to comprehend "points failure".  We on the coal-face (at least in my  neck of the woods but from friends around the country within and outside the industry the message is the same) are sick of banal pre-recorded announcements.  "Due to a problem currently under investigation" is the worst.  Someone has not entered the relevant code and the system defaults to "dunno mate" mode.  We don't need to be too specific about "The emergency services dealing with an incident" but those are not always fatalities.  I have never announced a cancelled train.  When required I grab the hand-mic and will say something like "We are sorry that we are unable to run the xx.xx to ABC today.  This is because there is a fault on the train.  Your next train to ABC is expected to be at xx.xx".  Not the dreaded "cancelled" but the same information conveyed in a simple yet apologetic, rather than dramatic, form.  

 

In the context of the Hitachi Problem perhaps the message could have been "We are sorry that, because of emergency safety checks to all trains, we are unable to run the advertised service today on the following routes ..... and advise everyone not to travel.  We do not have an expected time for services to resume but it will not be today."  Simple, clear and as customer-friendly as possible under Code Black.  Which is a situation I myself have handled a few times.  As I mentioned before there have to be learning points coming out of this.  And of course as things start to return the occasional train which does manage to run might be expected to load more lightly, easing pressure on staff everywhere, if everyone clearly has the message to not travel at all.  

 

I agree that I think people either know or could figure out what points are and if they don't know - what can we all do when we don't know something? Look it up! I think we dumb down industry language and phrases too much, there is one way the travelling public will learn and that is through hearing it, trying to understand it and/or asking questions accordingly.

 

A slight education in the banal announcements if I may.

The system most of us use is called Tyrell which has a number of pre-defined reasons for incidents (whichever system a TOC uses has all of the same reasons because I think they are nationally agreed). There are a huge number of incident reasons but most are so so so specific they are nigh on useless - 'A fire near the railway suspected of involving gas cylinders yesterday' - when has anyone ever heard of that one being announced?

Each TOC is measured on how swiftly (and in prolonged disruption how often) they update passengers and staff of events. There is even a league table - The Golden Lion - which is taken very seriously. The upshot of this is that when something kicks off there is a real hurry to get the first message out there (as both internal and external messages are sent simultaneously with the controller selecting which bits of manually entered or pre selected information goes where) and ensuring their disruption/amendments scores are as good as they can be. The very first thing you have to select on the incident form is phrase that best describes the incident - this then becomes the banal phrase that Digital Doris will announce all over the network where that train calls. As the controller in question is usually under duress to get the amendment out (more so in disruption affecting multiple trains) then you often pick a reason that you know exists and have used frequently 'A fault on this train', 'Emergency services dealing with an incident', 'trespassers on the railway' etc when there might be one more specific. But to find a more perfect fit you would need to scroll through ALL of the reasons or search the exact word you need - and it is never under the specific word you think it is.

 

In terms of the specific reason 'A problem currently under investigation' it is because the individual, try as they might, cannot find a reason that matches the true cause of the problem and it is regarded as the fallback in such a situation. It would then be prudent for the controller to put more specific details in the 'Internal Information' box so that the likes of yourself on the ground can interpret the information and disseminate at your discretion. I always tried to put the full story in the internal information in the hope that staff might then be able to better educate passengers.

To use that reason is never a mistake or a slip of the finger but a conscious decision where - in the moment - there is no better reason from the peculiar list to chose from. Why have messages preset messages in the first place? To try and create a unified message from Paddington to Penzance and all calling points in between and so that there are a few simple reasons on journey check websites like this - https://www.journeycheck.com/greatwesternrailway/

 

With 30 seconds of work, per train, for the controller the messaging system will update CIS screens, journey check websites, journey check/TOC/NR apps, internal messaging systems and during disruption this is the most efficient way of keeping everyone everywhere updated. For context, there are 3 controller on shift updating the information systems for the whole of the GWR network. CIS screens can be manually amended locally and there is also a CIS controller who makes sure the information input into the Tyrell system as imported correctly.

 

For the Class 80X saga there is no perfect banal phrase other than 'more trains than usual requiring repairs' or 'a shortage of trains due to extra safety inspections'. I am not saying either of these are right though! The Code Black status message needed to be updated every 2 hours throughout the incident although this would usually only be internal information.

 

I am in no way defending the way in which the system works or the nature of the announcements made but hopefully giving an insight into how these things work from another side of the industry. I could write War & Peace on some of these things and really ought to be more succinct in my messages!

 

For interest, this is the very top of the long list of reasons available to try and illustrate what you work from:

 

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, Afroal05 said:

Digital Doris

Known as Sonia to many of us.  Because she gets Sonia nerves.  

[Gilbert]

Back to pictures of trains..today at Bristol Parkway  1B17 1348 London Paddington to Swansea and 9L53 1510 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington.

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, Afroal05 said:

'A problem currently under investigation'

 Which may indeed sometimes be under investigation.  And may sometimes be remarkably obvious to some people somewhere who can then advise the real reason.  

 

A case in point: Weymouth train awaiting departure from London Waterloo is observed to have a smashed window with both panes gone.  (Single pane smashed can be taped and the train proceeds - both panes of a double-glazed panel gone and it's out of service).   Train is emptied and taken out of service.  

 

Sonia announces to Clapham Junction and all points west "Due to a problem under investigation" but there is visibly a "Fault on the train".  That is not the information which reached the public's ears, however, and as often happens the station staff were left to field the collective frustration of a couple of hundred hopeful passengers.  

 

And now back to the storyline.  

Edited May 25, 2021 by Gwiwer

[caradoc]

Bear in mind I have been retired for almost 5 years (!), but IIRC publicising 'a fatality at x' fell out of favour because it encouraged lookie-loos to go to the location mentioned, as well perhaps worrying some in the area. So it was replaced by 'Emergency services dealing with an incident', but it was then recognised that this was vague and did not always convey the seriousness of the incident. So this was replaced in turn by 'a person struck by a train between x and y', the two locations quoted being sufficiently far apart that the exact location was not divulged. (It is noticeable however from the disruption updates on National Rail Enquiries that some TOCs still use the 'Emergency services etc' message).

 

[96701]

1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

 Which may indeed sometimes be under investigation.  And may sometimes be remarkably obvious to some people somewhere who can then advise the real reason.  

 

A case in point: Weymouth train awaiting departure from London Waterloo is observed to have a smashed window with both panes gone.  (Single pane smashed can be taped and the train proceeds - both panes of a double-glazed panel gone and it's out of service).   Train is emptied and taken out of service.  

 

Sonia announces to Clapham Junction and all points west "Due to a problem under investigation" but there is visibly a "Fault on the train".  That is not the information which reached the public's ears, however, and as often happens the station staff were left to field the collective frustration of a couple of hundred hopeful passengers.  

 

And now back to the storyline.  

A couple of points:

 

1.  Afroal05 has covered the minimal options and okay, somebody made a mistake (heaven forfend, they should be flogged to within an inch of their lives) and chose the a message that may not have been appropriate, however
2. what ever the message was, the non appearance of a train would result in the station staff being left to field the collective frustration of a couple of hundred hopeful passengers.

 

[Wheatley]

Surely the exact nature of the incident is unimportant, what matters to the waiting punter is how long they are likely to be waiting.

 

"Fault with the train" - possibly an option of getting on another one going in the same direction. 

 

"Signalling / points fault" - affecting everything but within our control (nominally) so we'll fix it as quickly as we can.

 

"Person struck / emergency services / police incident" - you'll be here a while and there's no use whining at the staff about it. 

 

The only time I've ever got the giggles doing an announcement was explaing a delay caused by the guard on a conventional DMU locking  a glue sniffer in the guards van to await the police.

 

The most succinct one I've ever heard was the one following an emergency brake application between Sheffield and Barnsley - "Driver to guard - Terry get yer a**e down here, we've skittled someone..."

Edited May 25, 2021 by Wheatley

[Gwiwer]

38 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

"Driver to guard - Terry get yer a**e down here, we've skittled someone..."

In a similar vein and inadvertently broadcast to all of the radio-users on the channel : "Darwin Awards - We have a winner".

 

Dark humour of the kind which helps many people cope with these things, to the point but definitely not meant to be overheard.  

[BR60103]

I was on the GO Train home one night when we stopped a couple of miles from the station.  The driver announced that the train ahead of us had hit someone at the station. I was up near the front. Very shortly a snazzily dressed man came up and said that he was the Toronto coroner and if they could get him to the scene, he would have us moving shortly.  There was a CN pickup truck beside us in a few minutes.

He told us that he was rewriting the regulations so that if the vixtim was obviously dead and it was clear what happened, the body could be removed and service restarted.  There has been no sign since that this has taken effect.

 

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, Afroal05 said:

I agree that I think people either know or could figure out what points are

Perhaps "track" would be more easily understood than "points" - and of wider application too?

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Surely the exact nature of the incident is unimportant, what matters to the waiting punter is how long they are likely to be waiting.

 

"Fault with the train" - possibly an option of getting on another one going in the same direction. 

 

"Signalling / points fault" - affecting everything but within our control (nominally) so we'll fix it as quickly as we can.

 

"Person struck / emergency services / police incident" - you'll be here a while and there's no use whining at the staff about it. 

 

The only time I've ever got the giggles doing an announcement was explaing a delay caused by the guard on a conventional DMU locking  a glue sniffer in the guards van to await the police.

 

The most succinct one I've ever heard was the one following an emergency brake application between Sheffield and Barnsley - "Driver to guard - Terry get yer a**e down here, we've skittled someone..."

I remember once at Derby, when trains were running by the calendar, the announcer was just repeating what the controller was telling her in real time:

 

"The xx.xx to London St Pancras will now depart from platform 4. First class accommodation is at the ar$e end of the train".

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

In a similar vein and inadvertently broadcast to all of the radio-users on the channel : "Darwin Awards - We have a winner".

 

Dark humour of the kind which helps many people cope with these things, to the point but definitely not meant to be overheard.  

I was once "advised" that the use of the word "jumper" was only appropriate when applied to knitwear, just in case the radio conversation "got out".

 

John

Edited May 26, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Hobby]

5 hours ago, BR60103 said:

I was on the GO Train home one night when we stopped a couple of miles from the station.  The driver announced that the train ahead of us had hit someone at the station. I was up near the front. Very shortly a snazzily dressed man came up and said that he was the Toronto coroner and if they could get him to the scene, he would have us moving shortly.  There was a CN pickup truck beside us in a few minutes.

 

To lighten the tone for a moment, we got cautioned one day as there was a horse in the 4ft, proceeding slowly along we came round a bend in the track and did indeed come across a horse standing in the 4ft! I did an announcement as to why we had stopped and saw no reason to say anything but the truth. The driver and I got down to sort it out and try to return it to it's owners when one of the catering staff stuck his head out of the driver's door and shouted that he had a professional jockey on board who'd offered his services!! I said we didn't need him as the driver had his own horse so knew what to do but thank him for his offer! I know we usually carry doctors/nurses/medical staff... But jockeys?!

[woodenhead]

15 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

To lighten the tone for a moment, we got cautioned one day as there was a horse in the 4ft, proceeding slowly along we came round a bend in the track and did indeed come across a horse standing in the 4ft! I did an announcement as to why we had stopped and saw no reason to say anything but the truth. The driver and I got down to sort it out and try to return it to it's owners when one of the catering staff stuck his head out of the driver's door and shouted that he had a professional jockey on board who'd offered his services!! I said we didn't need him as the driver had his own horse so knew what to do but thank him for his offer! I know we usually carry doctors/nurses/medical staff... But jockeys?!

Jockeys are always amongst us, but they're so small we don't see them

[Mike_Walker]

21 hours ago, St. Simon said:

 

An 800 running out of Stoke Gifford on Diesel...that's another few hundred quid for Bristol Council  

 

Simon

There is probably a valid reason for this.  GWR 80x units often operate under a "diesel-only restriction".  This can occur when some work has been carried out on the 25kV systems on the train at Stoke Gifford.  These cannot be tested at SG so therefore the unit is restricted to diesel operation until its next visit to North Pole which is fully equipped for this work.  Only a small number of units are affected, possibly only one or two a day.  It does, however, give extra flexibility which is no bad thing in the present circumstances!

Edited May 26, 2021 by Mike_Walker

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

I was once "advised" that the use of the word "jumper" was only appropriate when applied to knitwear, just in case the radio conversation "got out".

 

John

Anyone who has split or attached SR EMUs of certain generations knows all about jumpers. 27-way, anyone?

[rab]

8 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Anyone who has split or attached SR EMUs of certain generations knows all about jumpers. 27-way, anyone?

Go on then, educate the uninitiated; what's the story with 27 way jumpers.

[corneliuslundie]

Jumpers: perhaps that explains why my wife finds that she has to sign that she is an adult to use many knitting sites.

J

Edited May 26, 2021 by corneliuslundie
typo

[Oldddudders]

5 minutes ago, rab said:

Go on then, educate the uninitiated; what's the story with 27 way jumpers.

In earlier generations of EMU - and DEMU, and any loco-hauled push-pull formation, electrical control impulses between units or unit and loco are passed by a 27-way jumper. This is a great thick pipe that plugs upwards into a receptacle on the other vehicle. When not in use it sits facing upwards in a dummy receptacle. 

 

Even earlier generations of EMU also had a power jumper, carrying traction current. I never had to deal with one of those. But if one unit was on the juice rail and the other wasn't, the arc when uncoupling the jumper could cause serious injury - and did.