Getting other people to pay for you to build for your dream model layout

[PatB]

On 15/05/2021 at 01:20, boxbrownie said:

Crowd funding....hmmm.....I still haven’t recovered from when I was about eight and Blue Peter (the programme) asked for donations for the rebuilding of the Blue Peter locomotive, I saved and sent off my £5 for the restoration and received a certificate saying I had a “piece of it”.......now what’s happened? Nothing, nada....

 

Grumpy and sulking...who me?

 

Could always try turning up with a hacksaw and telling the owners that you've come to cash in your investment .

[Zomboid]

19 hours ago, The Johnster said:

becoming a rock star for example is in reality a vicious grind of years of relentless touring and studio work

I'm not sad to have missed out on that part of it... Though as a teenager and now I write and play music because it's enjoyable. Turning that into a job (and a very volatile one at that, your career could be pretty much ended by an ill fated experimentation with kazoo solos) may well spoil the enjoyment.

 

I'd quite like to experience a tour though - a couple of weeks up and down the country pretending to be Joe Satriani to 12 other people and then back home to middle class suburbia...

[westernviscount]

The modern world is so confusing to someone who should have been born 3 or so decades before my actual birth. 

 

I can only put this "go fund me" phenomena down to online interactions not adhering to or requiring the customs and courtesies that allow most of us to interact with and exist alongside others in the physical world. One does not have to worry about appearing rude, explicitly or otherwise on the internet inhabiting a digital personae. So what?

 

It seems many want to turn their lives into content to be consumed. The rhetoric of goals, maximization and other corporate world terms has permeated into the hobby space of some. Youtubers, influencers etc are becoming common even in our predominantly solitary, physical world hobby. Mostly I find these newly arrived railway modelling celebs mostly tedious and mediocre.  But also cant help but feel some pity, in that a hobby so rewarding in its own right, appears to not satisfy the needs of an ever greater number of  "hobbyists". 

 

I could of course be a grumpy stuck in the mud who is just envious! 

 

Either way, thank God for the off switch! 

 

 

[meil]

I'm afraid that the phenomena is prevalent everywhere on YouTube. There's a guy called 00Bill who spends his time repairing 00 locomotives, and to be fair he does get them running, but it is evident he has little knowledge of real railways. But people are for ever sending him models, not to repair on their behalf, actually sending him models to keep for himself - out of the blue.

 

Other sites are just the same - model engineering sites and machinist sites get people sending tools and such like out of the blue.

 

WHY?

[Dungrange]

6 minutes ago, meil said:

WHY?

 

Presumably for a name check.  If you can't be famous for actually doing something, you could be 'famous' for being name checked in a '00Bill' video.  It's like a whole new take on the definition of Z list 'celebrities'. 

 

I've no interest in watching any of these model railway 'influencers' but my daughter has her favourite 'Minecraft' YouTubers, who she claims give her inspiration for her own 'builds' in Minecraft and in the past, she was very keen on watching a woman build Lego sets.  Again, it was 'for inspiration', so having seen how a particular set was put together, she can try to replicate something similar with her own Lego.

 

As for 00Bill, he may know nothing about the real railways, but I think there are a large number of people like that who are interested in model railways purely, as toys.  Young children know nothing about railways but can have fun with a trainset and some adults can too.  Yes, I know that there are also the rivet counters among us who strive for perfection, but the hobby is a 'broad church'.  If some people enjoy watching his restoration skills, then so be it.  If they think that because he's got a YouTube channel, that makes him 'cool' or 'famous' then that's just the way they see things and I suppose sending him a model is an attempt to be part of that 'franchise'.

[HonestTom]

13 hours ago, westernviscount said:

The modern world is so confusing to someone who should have been born 3 or so decades before my actual birth. 

 

I can only put this "go fund me" phenomena down to online interactions not adhering to or requiring the customs and courtesies that allow most of us to interact with and exist alongside others in the physical world. One does not have to worry about appearing rude, explicitly or otherwise on the internet inhabiting a digital personae. So what?

 

It seems many want to turn their lives into content to be consumed. The rhetoric of goals, maximization and other corporate world terms has permeated into the hobby space of some. Youtubers, influencers etc are becoming common even in our predominantly solitary, physical world hobby. Mostly I find these newly arrived railway modelling celebs mostly tedious and mediocre.  But also cant help but feel some pity, in that a hobby so rewarding in its own right, appears to not satisfy the needs of an ever greater number of  "hobbyists". 

 

I could of course be a grumpy stuck in the mud who is just envious! 

 

Either way, thank God for the off switch! 

 

It's not really a case of the hobby not being rewarding in its own right, but wanting to share it with others. Much the same impulse that leads people to exhibit layouts, or give demonstrations, or write for the modelling magazines, or even to post photos of their models on RMWeb. Pride in the craft, the desire to help others, wanting to connect with likeminded individuals. My own model railway videos were begun with the aim of helping beginners who wanted to get into more "serious" modelling - to show that anyone can create something they can be proud of without decades of experience or a bottomless bank account.

 

I don't know about corporate rhetoric, but when I was presented with the opportunity to make money doing something I love, I took it. If that makes me a pitiable person, then I'll be a pitiable person who loves my job.

 

11 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 

Presumably for a name check.  If you can't be famous for actually doing something, you could be 'famous' for being name checked in a '00Bill' video.  It's like a whole new take on the definition of Z list 'celebrities'. 

 

I've no interest in watching any of these model railway 'influencers' but my daughter has her favourite 'Minecraft' YouTubers, who she claims give her inspiration for her own 'builds' in Minecraft and in the past, she was very keen on watching a woman build Lego sets.  Again, it was 'for inspiration', so having seen how a particular set was put together, she can try to replicate something similar with her own Lego.

 

As for 00Bill, he may know nothing about the real railways, but I think there are a large number of people like that who are interested in model railways purely, as toys.  Young children know nothing about railways but can have fun with a trainset and some adults can too.  Yes, I know that there are also the rivet counters among us who strive for perfection, but the hobby is a 'broad church'.  If some people enjoy watching his restoration skills, then so be it.  If they think that because he's got a YouTube channel, that makes him 'cool' or 'famous' then that's just the way they see things and I suppose sending him a model is an attempt to be part of that 'franchise'.

I confess I'm not familiar with 00Bill's work, but I did just check a couple of his videos out. There is a pretty strong market on YouTube for people who make or repair things. Type "Restoring" into the YouTube search bar and you'll get a feel for just how popular the restoration genre is - everything from antique weapons to toys to vehicles. There's even someone restoring neglected bonsai trees. Personally, I like the channel Rescue & Restore. It's strangely satisfying to watch a pile of rust transformed back into something beautiful. And of course, it can be useful if you want to restore things for yourself.

[westernviscount]

1 hour ago, HonestTom said:

14 hours ago, westernviscount said:

The modern world is so confusing to someone who should have been born 3 or so decades before my actual birth. 

 

I can only put this "go fund me" phenomena down to online interactions not adhering to or requiring the customs and courtesies that allow most of us to interact with and exist alongside others in the physical world. One does not have to worry about appearing rude, explicitly or otherwise on the internet inhabiting a digital personae. So what?

 

It seems many want to turn their lives into content to be consumed. The rhetoric of goals, maximization and other corporate world terms has permeated into the hobby space of some. Youtubers, influencers etc are becoming common even in our predominantly solitary, physical world hobby. Mostly I find these newly arrived railway modelling celebs mostly tedious and mediocre.  But also cant help but feel some pity, in that a hobby so rewarding in its own right, appears to not satisfy the needs of an ever greater number of  "hobbyists". 

 

I could of course be a grumpy stuck in the mud who is just envious! 

 

Either way, thank God for the off switch! 

 

Expand  

It's not really a case of the hobby not being rewarding in its own right, but wanting to share it with others.

 

You make very fair points throughout your reply Tom. I suppose motivations within the hobby are vastly different and as someone else states, it is a broad church.

 

The desire to share with others and inspire is laudable indeed but something I dont share with you. I freely admit there is a base desire to show off but I hope it is simply pride motivating me to want to record my "achievements". (Yeah right, I just want likes!!) 

 

I exhibit, share on RMWEB, contribute to magazines etc because I love my hobby as I remember it and admired other people's layouts and wanted to be able to create the models I wanted. 

 

Exhibitions for me are an opportunity to spend 6 or 7 hours running a railway and chatting with peers and this is unquantifiably satisfying to me in its own right. If I were to present my layout as an inspiration then I think for me, I may well have lost my way as a hobbyist and potentially be suffering dunning kruger syndrome!

 

As for demonstrating that the hobby is accessible to all, again this is laudable if a little lofty for me. Didnt this used to be  father Christmas's job, delivering a trainset or pocket money buying a constituent part depending on santas (mum and Dads) budget? I dont believe people need an intermediary to understand that there is a path from trainset to being Roye England or Barry Norman, which is one of trial and error, experimentation, failure and above all, active participation in making. People actually find that out for themselves through desire and ingenuity (whoops, corporate rhetoric!!!) instead of experiencing the hobby vicariously through a screen. Perhaps i am arrogant, but I never required anyone to tell me because I was a poor kid I could still do railway modelling. Perhaps seeing a cereal box as a house is something people need to be told how to do but I doubt that very much.

 

A youtuber demonstrating their brand new bells and whistles DCC number, a grown man submerging a trainset in a paddling pool, or someone begging for new toys would have quite easily put me off the hobby as a child...but then again, I have always been slightly odd. These examples are extreme of course and I wouldnt lump you in this category and admit I have watched and enjoyed a small number of youtube vids on modelling (inbetween dashcam footage, Boris bungles, jonathan pie and all the other crap I lose hours to).  I am just concerned about the affect of these modern ways on a hobby I have used consistently to escape them...he typed on RMWEB!! 

 

Cheers

Dave

[cypherman]

2 hours ago, HonestTom said:

It's not really a case of the hobby not being rewarding in its own right, but wanting to share it with others. Much the same impulse that leads people to exhibit layouts, or give demonstrations, or write for the modelling magazines, or even to post photos of their models on RMWeb. Pride in the craft, the desire to help others, wanting to connect with likeminded individuals. My own model railway videos were begun with the aim of helping beginners who wanted to get into more "serious" modelling - to show that anyone can create something they can be proud of without decades of experience or a bottomless bank account.

 

I don't know about corporate rhetoric, but when I was presented with the opportunity to make money doing something I love, I took it. If that makes me a pitiable person, then I'll be a pitiable person who loves my job.

 

I confess I'm not familiar with 00Bill's work, but I did just check a couple of his videos out. There is a pretty strong market on YouTube for people who make or repair things. Type "Restoring" into the YouTube search bar and you'll get a feel for just how popular the restoration genre is - everything from antique weapons to toys to vehicles. There's even someone restoring neglected bonsai trees. Personally, I like the channel Rescue & Restore. It's strangely satisfying to watch a pile of rust transformed back into something beautiful. And of course, it can be useful if you want to restore things for yourself.

Hi all,

I regularly watch 00Bills video's. I do not believe he is an influencer as has been inferred on one of the comments here. He does not advocate any particular brand or product in his video's. Unless you count T Cut. And yes it does work exactly as he says. But he is not the only person I have seen on You Tube to talk about using it. He just repairs what is sent to him. I do not know if he charges for fixing the models or just the parts he uses. In truth I do not care. He has a nice easy going atmosphere in his video's that are enjoyable to watch. Even an old dog like me has found out things I did not know. So it proves you can teach an old dog new tricks........

There are others out there who are just as great to watch like Oscar Paisley, Barrie Davies model trains and Johns amazing trains. Not sure about Sam's Trains as I personally feel they are aimed at the younger audience.

There are as mentioned plenty of other restoration channels out thereon You Tube, A couple of my favourites are Marty's Matchbox makeovers and Chip channel restorations.

Edited June 3, 2021 by cypherman

[Dungrange]

8 minutes ago, cypherman said:

He just repairs what is sent to him. I do not know if he charges for fixing the models or just the parts he uses. In truth I do not care.

 

I don't watch any of these channels, but I did notice a personal / small business website that stated they charged for building kits or repairs, but they had two price lists.  They charged £x per hour if you wanted the model built or repaired as quickly as possible, but something like 2/3 of £x per hour if you were in no rush and the proprietor could film the build / repair for his YouTube channel.  Effectively those who were commissioning a build / repair were receiving a discount if it was being filmed, as that was a way of providing content for the channel.   The downside would be that if the build was being filmed in say three or four parts (maybe once or twice a week), it would take much longer.  It might just be a days job in total, but it would take two or three weeks to complete.

 

Whether '00Bill' does that, I have no idea and like you, I do not care.

[HonestTom]

16 minutes ago, westernviscount said:

 

Perhaps seeing a cereal box as a house is something people need to be told how to do but I doubt that very much.

 

It's not so much seeing the cereal box as a house that's the problem, but the question of how you get from box to house. Sure, you could spend countless hours figuring it out, making an entire street of defective houses where things went wrong at a different stage. If you're really determined, you might even get to the stage where you have both a passable building and your sanity. Or you could follow a simple tutorial, master the basics in a few days and let your creativity run riot. Personally, I'd have loved something like that when I was getting started.

 

1 minute ago, cypherman said:

Hi all,

I regularly watch 00Bills video's. I do not believe he is an influencer as has been inferred on one of the comments here.

Generally I think the issue is that people think "influencer" and "YouTuber" are synonymous. An influencer is specifically someone who has been paid to promote something on social media, which most YouTubers aren't.

[westernviscount]

4 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

It's not so much seeing the cereal box as a house that's the problem, but the question of how you get from box to house. Sure, you could spend countless hours figuring it out, making an entire street of defective houses where things went wrong at a different stage. If you're really determined, you might even get to the stage where you have both a passable building and your sanity. Or you could follow a simple tutorial, master the basics in a few days and let your creativity run riot. Personally, I'd have loved something like that when I was getting started.

All fair comments Tom and proof of the diversity of experience in this hobby. It seems we have two opposing viewpoints, your quote above describing the exact opposite of what I value and no doubt my views are in complete opposition to yours. 

 

The problem you see as creating a house from a box IS my hobby. Not a problem, but an opportunity for absorbtion and excuse to spend countless hours doing something completely useless to anyone else other than me. 

 

I question whether you would have benefitted from vids earlier in your hobbying, instead perhaps you have developed creativity through the acquisition of skill by engaging one on one with tools and materials. This,  as opposed to some innate ability being stifled until the correct level of skill handed on to you was achieved, validating your creativity.

 

This is just my opinion of course and I accept there is a level of inner gift possibly. I also accept I might be taking things a little seriously but I love railway modelling and worry that youtube limits instead or inspires. However, times change and this is for sure, youtubers are here to stay and my view point will be all but extinct pretty soon. 

[Dungrange]

1 hour ago, HonestTom said:

It's not so much seeing the cereal box as a house that's the problem, but the question of how you get from box to house. Sure, you could spend countless hours figuring it out, making an entire street of defective houses where things went wrong at a different stage. If you're really determined, you might even get to the stage where you have both a passable building and your sanity. Or you could follow a simple tutorial, master the basics in a few days and let your creativity run riot. Personally, I'd have loved something like that when I was getting started.

 

Are these YouTube videos really any different from watching say an episode of Blue Peter in the 1980s?  All you need are several toilet roll tubes, some newspaper, wallpaper paste or double sided sticky tape and you can build your very own Tracy Island: here is how it's done.  As I see it, it's the same, it's just with YouTube there is greater scope for finding a 'presenter' who you enjoy and who is tackling what you want to create and because it's 'on demand', at a time of your choosing.

[westernviscount]

27 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 

Are these YouTube videos really any different from watching say an episode of Blue Peter in the 1980s?  All you need are several toilet roll tubes, some newspaper, wallpaper paste or double sided sticky tape and you can build your very own Tracy Island: here is how it's done.  As I see it, it's the same, it's just with YouTube there is greater scope for finding a 'presenter' who you enjoy and who is tackling what you want to create and because it's 'on demand', at a time of your choosing.

 

I think the main difference is the BP builds were presented within a magazine format and anticipated the child not watching BP episode after episode interspersed with 10 second adverts on how "you can make money for doing *insert banal, meaningless pursuit* just like me!!!" With Yvette Fielding imploring us to like and subscribe every 5 mins ;-) 

 

In all seriousness I do see your point but the infinite choice thing and endless content fiills me with dread, a thing the hobby has helped stave off in my life thus far!

 

Cheers

 

[JohnR]

24 minutes ago, westernviscount said:

 

I think the main difference is the BP builds were presented within a magazine format and anticipated the child not watching BP episode after episode interspersed with 10 second adverts on how "you can make money for doing *insert banal, meaningless pursuit* just like me!!!" With Yvette Fielding imploring us to like and subscribe every 5 mins ;-) 

 

 

 

That was Magpie on ITV.

[JohnR]

Someone on YouTube is providing a service to an audience - and there IS an audience for people who want to watch various aspects of Model Railways being constructed, hopefully in an entertaining fashion. Thats why people buy magazines. YouTube is no different. 

 

And, if we want to ensure that the content we like is made, we need to buy the magazine, subscribe to the channel, donate etc. 

 

As for OOBill, I enjoy watching his videos, and despite his lack of railway knowledge, I learn things about how locos work. He has skills I dont - but then who said everyone in this hobby had to have the same level of knowledge and skills to participate?

 

I havnt seen the requests for funds in the original post - and if it was as blatant as "I cant afford to build a model railway, please send me money" then I wouldnt bother, and I'm sure they wouldnt get much response. But if it was "I'm going to build this large layout, and if you help support it financially, then not only will things happen quicker, but you can also see videos of progress, help decider which locos runs etc" then thats giving value in return for the donation.  Its surely up to the end user to decide if that value is worth the money they spend. 

[westernviscount]

40 minutes ago, JohnR said:

Someone on YouTube is providing a service to an audience - and there IS an audience for people who want to watch various aspects of Model Railways being constructed, hopefully in an entertaining fashion. Thats why people buy magazines. YouTube is no different. 

 

And, if we want to ensure that the content we like is made, we need to buy the magazine, subscribe to the channel, donate etc. 

 

As for OOBill, I enjoy watching his videos, and despite his lack of railway knowledge, I learn things about how locos work. He has skills I dont - but then who said everyone in this hobby had to have the same level of knowledge and skills to participate?

 

I havnt seen the requests for funds in the original post - and if it was as blatant as "I cant afford to build a model railway, please send me money" then I wouldnt bother, and I'm sure they wouldnt get much response. But if it was "I'm going to build this large layout, and if you help support it financially, then not only will things happen quicker, but you can also see videos of progress, help decider which locos runs etc" then thats giving value in return for the donation.  Its surely up to the end user to decide if that value is worth the money they spend. 

Yes John there is an audience there is no denying that. However i worry that perhaps some folk may prefer being an audience instead of a participator, consumer over creator. I may well be catastrophising a bit of course. 

 

As for maintaining content we like,  i agree which is why when the time comes I pester my local WHsmith as to whether they have the latest MRJ and when they do, make the signnof the cross before parting with £5.50!!! They think it might be in tomorrow!!! Now who has the real problem?? ;-) 

[JohnR]

15 hours ago, westernviscount said:

Yes John there is an audience there is no denying that. However i worry that perhaps some folk may prefer being an audience instead of a participator, consumer over creator. I may well be catastrophising a bit of course. 

 

As for maintaining content we like,  i agree which is why when the time comes I pester my local WHsmith as to whether they have the latest MRJ and when they do, make the signnof the cross before parting with £5.50!!! They think it might be in tomorrow!!! Now who has the real problem?? ;-) 

I think the issue of someone preferring to be an audience member over being a creator is one that has always existed within the hobby. There were armchair modellers long before You Tube, or even the Internet itself was invented!

[The Johnster]

 Broad church.  You can enjoy and become highly skilled in aspects of the hobby without knowing or wanting to know anything about real trains or how they are operated at all, which is where 00Bill fits in.  Nothing wrong with this or with armchair modelling; I was myself an armchair modeller for many years following a disastrous divorce and home repossession in 1985, which introduced me to a somewhat unsettled life not conducive to building layouts.  It is only 5 years ago that I felt settled enough to undertake another layout.  

[Phil Parker]

16 hours ago, westernviscount said:

As for maintaining content we like,  i agree which is why when the time comes I pester my local WHsmith as to whether they have the latest MRJ and when they do, make the signnof the cross before parting with £5.50!!! They think it might be in tomorrow!!! Now who has the real problem?? ;-) 

 

The publishers of MRJ - they will only get a few pence out of your purchase. If you really want to support a publication - subscribe. It costs the same, or even less, and the people who make the publication happen get more of the money.

[tomparryharry]

I think it would be an excellent idea myself.  I'd be building a steelworks type layout, with ladle cars travelling about conveying cold glasses of 'refreshments'.

 

DCC? Oh yes, double curry & chips.

 

"Not what you wanted? Too bad, too bad..." 

[westernviscount]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

The publishers of MRJ - they will only get a few pence out of your purchase. If you really want to support a publication - subscribe. It costs the same, or even less, and the people who make the publication happen get more of the money.

Fair point Phil. I admit as a model railway hobbyist, the ins and outs of a magazine's business operation is out of my sphere of knowledge I am afraid. 

 

I certainly dont feel bad about buying MRJ copy by copy and buy it to enjoy the content, nothing more. I dont see my trip to WH Smith as a mercy dash every *insert random amount of time between MRJ publications*. 

 

Subscriptions have always been for those who are financially secure enough to make a commitment and the assumption everyone is in this boat who enjoys the hobby is unfortunate but clearly a fact of life. If folk are confused as to why a 4 issue sub of £22 is a stretch for some then what can I say.

 

An interest in model railways is not just for the flush, despite the total cost month after month of the jam packed reviews pages of the glossier publications would have us believe. 

 

Given MRJ consistently champions small concerns instead of big ticket item "reviews" and doesnt sell vast areas of the magazine to advertisers and pays for all contributed content is an appealing factor.

 

Heck Phil, you may well have convinced me. Cygnet publications on speed dial. ;-) 

 

[HonestTom]

53 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

I think it would be an excellent idea myself.  I'd be building a steelworks type layout, with ladle cars travelling about conveying cold glasses of 'refreshments'.

 

DCC? Oh yes, double curry & chips.

 

"Not what you wanted? Too bad, too bad..." 

 

Well, now I'm wondering about the practicality of turning a homebrew kit into a working model brewery. I'll film myself after the end result for the amusement of viewers.

Edited June 4, 2021 by HonestTom

[Phil Parker]

2 hours ago, westernviscount said:

Subscriptions have always been for those who are financially secure enough to make a commitment and the assumption everyone is in this boat who enjoys the hobby is unfortunate but clearly a fact of life. If folk are confused as to why a 4 issue sub of £22 is a stretch for some then what can I say.

 

Where did I say that? The reason they are offered at a discount is that more of the money goes to the people who make the magazine. WH Smiths don't put it on the shelves for free - in fact many smaller mags lose money on a Smiths purchase, but have to hope they convert some casual buys into subscriptions.

 

2 hours ago, westernviscount said:

An interest in model railways is not just for the flush, despite the total cost month after month of the jam packed reviews pages of the glossier publications would have us believe.

 

6-8 pages of reviews is hardly "jam packed". Most of the content of all the mags is still layouts and practicals. Lots of people do enjoy the review however, are their opinions worthless?

 

2 hours ago, westernviscount said:

Given MRJ consistently champions small concerns instead of big ticket item "reviews" and doesnt sell vast areas of the magazine to advertisers

 

BRM's News Inwards also cover small suppliers, especially if they send an e-mail telling us about their products. Admittedly, these are at the less hair-shirt end of the market, but then that's where most modellers are. We've publicised very niche products on World of Railways as well. Again, all it takes is an e-mail.

 

2 hours ago, westernviscount said:

and pays for all contributed content is an appealing factor.

 

Not sure where you get the idea that other magazines don't pay for content. We even pay for video, which no-one else does. We also supply a free to use forum...

 

2 hours ago, westernviscount said:

Heck Phil, you may well have convinced me. Cygnet publications on speed dial. ;-) 

 

Good. I hope others take note and do the same. If you want to keep your favourite read in operation, it's worth supporting them. Once a mag is gone, in the modern era, it's unlikely to be replaced. That's especially true of specialist titles.

[westernviscount]

Well Phil you have been very detailed in your rebuttle there. An interesting insight into the sharp end of the hobby.

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

Where did I say that? The reason they are offered at a discount is that more of the money goes to the people who make the magazine.

Well, you stated in your first reponse to my MRJ comment that if I wanted to support MRJ then I should subscribe. The implication is we can afford subs for a mag or are of no value to you. You belittled my purchase of MRJ from a comment that was in part self effacing which is fine. Your subsequent replies have been detailed and I understand you have a more vested interest in the modern state of the hobby than me. I dont make money from my hobby, or anyone elses hobby but that does not mean I cannot participate in the way I choose to. 

 

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

6-8 pages of reviews is hardly "jam packed". Most of the content of all the mags is still layouts and practicals. Lots of people do enjoy the review however, are their opinions worthless?

 

I recognise the content of BRM is a business. The practicals I am sure require the branded products they promote to get the desired results inspite of the business and one page of protype info must be followed by 2 or 3 of product review inspite of the business. I understand the opinions of folks who enjoy this are by no means worthless to you...they pay the bills. To me? Well, lets say they mean very little. 

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Not sure where you get the idea that other magazines don't pay for content. We even pay for video, which no-one else does. We also supply a free to use forum...

Well here Phil you got me! My own fault of course and along with everything I have written above, a betrayal of my complete lack of understanding of how business works. A photo and 120 words for free for the "through the lens article" must go some way to compensating for us who neither subscribe or buy BRM ;-) yes I know I know it was a competition. I also voluntarily named 2 companies free of charge!!! I Need to put down the Marx and pick up the Mill!!

 

[cypherman]

Hi all,

This post seems to be going way off track here. And maybe should get a thread of it's own.