Realistic LMS/ex-LMS BLT operation

[Flying Pig]

4 hours ago, MiltonF said:

There's a reason I referred to it as compression gone too far.

 

I really don't think there's much reason to worry about this, unless you're still claiming it as representative of Horwich.  As a model branch terminus with L&Y features it's no more compressed than an awful lot of BLT layouts.

 

As regards shunting I would bite the bullet and do it all from the main, which would allow the points into the sidings to be moved to the left of the crossover (the Peco tandem point would fit here), even perhaps using a double slip in the yard and reducing the headshunt to a trap.   That would give you longer sidings and they do look a wee bit stumpy to me as they are.

 

When you are shunting the goods, you will mostly be swapping wagons between the sidings and the train which will probably need to sit in the loop, so the headshunt wouldn't help you here anyway.  It's only use would be when sorting the wagons remaining in the yard into the right places, but you might as well continue working from the main for this.

 

I don't know precisely what you mean by fiddle stick, but if you're going to use some sort of cassette system, you could have a scenic one with ballasted track for shunting if that helps you maintain the illusion of reality.

[Harlequin]

8 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

I really don't think there's much reason to worry about this, unless you're still claiming it as representative of Horwich.  As a model branch terminus with L&Y features it's no more compressed than an awful lot of BLT layouts.

 

As regards shunting I would bite the bullet and do it all from the main, which would allow the points into the sidings to be moved to the left of the crossover (the Peco tandem point would fit here), even perhaps using a double slip in the yard and reducing the headshunt to a trap.   That would give you longer sidings and they do look a wee bit stumpy to me as they are.

 

When you are shunting the goods, you will mostly be swapping wagons between the sidings and the train which will probably need to sit in the loop, so the headshunt wouldn't help you here anyway.  It's only use would be when sorting the wagons remaining in the yard into the right places, but you might as well continue working from the main for this.

 

I don't know precisely what you mean by fiddle stick, but if you're going to use some sort of cassette system, you could have a scenic one with ballasted track for shunting if that helps you maintain the illusion of reality.

 

You could do some or all of the above while retaining a reasonable length kickback and instead of thinking of it as a headshunt think of it as your compressed representation of the Tuyere works.

 

[MiltonF]

I've incorporated a couple changes, don't worry too much about the private kickback as it's just me messing around trying to figure it out still. I do have to say that I miss the sort of lopsided mirrored effect of horwich as a visual design element. I've added two objects the same dimensions as ten inchers for scale.

 

 

And wow, you're right, having looked at the old and new sidings side by side they really were incredibly stubby.

Edited May 18, 2021 by MiltonF
New thoughts came to me

[MiltonF]

And just as an added thought, here's that same plan with the loco spur reintroduced

 

 

On third thought, maybe the best possible way to incorporate engine servicing into this layout is to simply have the engine go "off scene" to be coaled and watered, then turned by a wobbly 0-5-0

Edited May 18, 2021 by MiltonF

[Zomboid]

I prefer it without the loco spur. I'd have a water tower at the platform, but for anything more an off-scene turntable/ shed/ loco lift would be what I'd do.

[Harlequin]

38 minutes ago, MiltonF said:

And just as an added thought, here's that same plan with the loco spur reintroduced

 

 

On third thought, maybe the best possible way to incorporate engine servicing into this layout is to simply have the engine go "off scene" to be coaled and watered, then turned by a wobbly 0-5-0

 

You've gone back to the "less rational" plan with it's short run round...?

 

[MiltonF]

3 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

You've gone back to the "less rational" plan with it's short run round...?

 

There may be some optical illusion going on here, as the runaround length has never changed on this particular plan. It's a strange approach that definitely works better in real life due to rtr point lengths and space constraints, but I'm still hoping I can fix the horwich inspired plan. You see, with a "flipped" version of the plan with the platform on the approach, you lose the movement of crossing over the approach from the departure to the goods siding, which to me is an essential element of this layout. Even though it is somewhat illogical, it's something that I really like about the real location. I'm still working on other different designs in the background of this which offer perhaps a more traditional approach to the BLT scheme, but I'm hoping that if I can get this to work, it can be built.

 

While single track running and more logically placed goods sidings would simplify the layout a lot, it wouldn't be as interesting in my opinion.

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, MiltonF said:

And just as an added thought, here's that same plan with the loco spur reintroduced

 

 

On third thought, maybe the best possible way to incorporate engine servicing into this layout is to simply have the engine go "off scene" to be coaled and watered, then turned by a wobbly 0-5-0

 

 

I'm not sure whether you are trying to replicate the operation of the real Horwich, but no facilities at all and the loco doing the return trip without servicing is quite possible.  Holmfirth which I linked earlier doesn't appear to have had even a water column and the nearest large station was Huddersfield.  So probably something not to worry about.

 

46 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

You've gone back to the "less rational" plan with it's short run round...?

 

 

You can actually run round pretty much anything that will fit in the platform using the goods crossover.

[MiltonF]

14 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

-snip-

 

Out of curiosity, and for the sake of exploring alternate routes, do you have any specific operating plan for your minories partner layout, Seironim?

[The Stationmaster]

Don't forget that you need the loco spur, or a shortened version of it, to actas a trap point although you could do that another way

[Flying Pig]

17 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Don't forget that you need the loco spur, or a shortened version of it, to actas a trap point although you could do that another way

 

Where shortened could mean just a pair of switches.  Representation of traps without going overboard with pointwork is tricky when using rtr track, as available pieces in most track ranges are severely limited.  People get aereated over this subject, but in the big picture the layout can look more realistic if the traps are left out altogether rather than represented by excessively complicated formations.

[MiltonF]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Don't forget that you need the loco spur, or a shortened version of it, to actas a trap point although you could do that another way

I haven't decided if I keep the spur or just get rid of it altogether so I haven't placed the trap point yet. I don't even know how far up or down the coal siding I want the turnout. One problem to me is that the loco spur itself will be struggling for space for any decent looking facilities, but I don't want to make it so far down that the entire coal siding needs to be cleared just to take on water.

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, MiltonF said:

I haven't decided if I keep the spur or just get rid of it altogether so I haven't placed the trap point yet. I don't even know how far up or down the coal siding I want the turnout. One problem to me is that the loco spur itself will be struggling for space for any decent looking facilities, but I don't want to make it so far down that the entire coal siding needs to be cleared just to take on water.

As it isn't far from a running shed the spur won't need much, if anything, in the way of facilioties = perhaps a small cabin for enginemen and maybe a pit for oiling or ash but that is about it unless you can't fit in a water crane anywhere else.

[MiltonF]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

As it isn't far from a running shed the spur won't need much, if anything, in the way of facilioties = perhaps a small cabin for enginemen and maybe a pit for oiling or ash but that is about it unless you can't fit in a water crane anywhere else.

Essentially just a small track to perform basic utilities on without getting in the way of anything, huh? Sounds good enough to me.

[MiltonF]

I've spent the last week thinking over this layout, and being very frustrated with the strange shape of the room. It doesn't lend itself well to model railways I think. The long wall is all in the wrong place! Or maybe I'm not thinking about it the right way.

[Aire Head]

2 hours ago, MiltonF said:

I've spent the last week thinking over this layout, and being very frustrated with the strange shape of the room. It doesn't lend itself well to model railways I think. The long wall is all in the wrong place! Or maybe I'm not thinking about it the right way.

Do you have some dimensions for the room?

[MiltonF]

3 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

Do you have some dimensions for the room?

Apologies for the cryptic post. Each square represents 1 imperial foot, while the room is larger than this the area beyond is just not suited for model railways, with a closet to one side and a bathroom door to the other. The only remaining open space is a 6 foot by 2 foot corner between the bathroom door and the entrance to the room. I've drawn it more logically here. Seemingly ample room, but tragically I must sleep somewhere and a 2 foot wide pallet just isn't enough for me.

[Aire Head]

8 minutes ago, MiltonF said:

Apologies for the cryptic post. Each square represents 1 imperial foot, while the room is larger than this the area beyond is just not suited for model railways, with a closet to one side and a bathroom door to the other. The only remaining open space is a 6 foot by 2 foot corner between the bathroom door and the entrance to the room. I've drawn it more logically here. Seemingly ample room, but tragically I must sleep somewhere and a 2 foot wide pallet just isn't enough for me.

Yes that is quite a Challenge!

 

Throw a mattress on the floor and sleep underneath the baseboards 

 

But on a serious not I’m guess your looking at the 7’6” wall and the 11’ one for your model?

 

 

[Chimer]

Could you combine turning the bed (as @harlequin suggested earlier) with having a removable fiddle yard across the front of the closet during operations?

 

[Zomboid]

I don't generally like the idea of a removable FY. Because in order to operate the railway, it must be set up, connected and then the rolling stock retrieved from storage and set up in the FY. Then at the end of the session, the rolling stock has to go back into it's boxes and the board disconnected and packed away. That's too many obstacles to playing trains, and as a result it'll happen relatively rarely.

 

If anything's removable, I'd make it the scenic section - still a faff, but at least the rolling stock can stay out. Or have the off-scene stuff on the same board as the scenic area, and have a detachable headshunt/ connection between the two.

 

Or just build a smaller layout that doesn't need to be dismantled - it'll be more fun than one that never gets operated.

[Barclay]

Have you considered moving the bed up? By which I mean something like a cabin/bunk bed but with part of the layout or at least the fiddle yard/workbench on the lower level?

[Harlequin]

3 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I don't generally like the idea of a removable FY. Because in order to operate the railway, it must be set up, connected and then the rolling stock retrieved from storage and set up in the FY. Then at the end of the session, the rolling stock has to go back into it's boxes and the board disconnected and packed away. That's too many obstacles to playing trains, and as a result it'll happen relatively rarely.

 

If anything's removable, I'd make it the scenic section - still a faff, but at least the rolling stock can stay out. Or have the off-scene stuff on the same board as the scenic area, and have a detachable headshunt/ connection between the two.

 

Or just build a smaller layout that doesn't need to be dismantled - it'll be more fun than one that never gets operated.

 

I basically agree but I think it could be made to work quite well if you were using cassettes.

 

Cassettes only need support at each end: at one end the layout connection and the other could be just a bar that is hinged to the wall. You'd need to make sure that the cassette connection to the layout is engineered to be very quick and simple. Then it would be possible to simply lift a whole train from storage, connect it to the layout and start to operate. If you're already using cassettes to store whole trains setting up to run is then not that different to just exchanging stock anyway and cassettes have the huge advantage of being able to be stored in a space-efficient wall rack.

 

[Harlequin]

How about using the 11ft wall almost exclusively for the scenic part, turning the corner and having a removable fiddle yard of some form (fold down, cassettes, fiddle sticks, whatever), along the 7ft 6in wall?

The FY may be all or partly above the bed, depending on how you orient it, and if it's not too annoying you could probably leave it set up for long periods.

 

[MiltonF]

On 25/05/2021 at 06:55, Harlequin said:

How about using the 11ft wall almost exclusively for the scenic part, turning the corner and having a removable fiddle yard of some form (fold down, cassettes, fiddle sticks, whatever), along the 7ft 6in wall?

The FY may be all or partly above the bed, depending on how you orient it, and if it's not too annoying you could probably leave it set up for long periods.

 

My biggest concern about putting it so close to the bed is not discomfort, but rather my unbelievably bad clumsiness. I'm certain I'll one day bump into it and fall onto it or into it.

Edited May 26, 2021 by MiltonF

[DCB]

That sure is an awkward space. I did a doodle and figured track over the bed was not ideal.  Next i thought shift the bed away from the long wall maybe a foot so track can go behind it  and use the full 11ft. that gives 7ft scenic plus 4ft FY. or 4ft cassettes.

Then I thought have a cassete yard in front of the closet which is put away eac session, maybe along the bottom wall, which either fills the room or has very tight curves which maybe need hiding so I compromised with a long station which goes behind the bed, gentle curves, small goods yard and again cassettes.   Then off plan what if the cassette table was on wheels, clipped to the closet doors and was an elevating table a la Nellyvator so trains came on and were lowered to a cassette yard or FY under the layout.  The table could be stored agaist that bottom wall. 5/6ft cassettes 4 coach / 15 wagon trains.  Might be worth working up in Anyrail if you're interested