New structure for British railways

[TheSignalEngineer]

50 minutes ago, dave750t said:

Not all of Ulster is in the UK

 

30 minutes ago, Classsix T said:

There's an...ahem, Alternative Ulster?

My son lives in Ulster, the proper Irish Province, but lives in the Republic. 

The proper Ulster includes Donegal. Cavan and Monaghan.

 

What is now usually referred to as Ulster is a Unionist hijack of the name.

[43110andyb]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Lots of stuff on there but all totally pointless unless you:-

 

(1) work for a Passenger Train operating company

 

Or

 

(2) were employed by British Rail before 1st January 1996

 

 

If you fall outside either of those categories you get sod all!

 

(Note the season ticket subsidy NR offer isn't rail specific - there is nothing to stop any employer be they a supermarket or a bank offering such a thing if they wanted to).

Agreed -it isn’t relevant for those unfortunate folk that fall outside of those remits!      I started BR in 1989 so fell well within the timescale to retain staff travel facilities and it’s always upset me that railway staff taken on after privatisation didn’t receive these perks!      Sheer greed from my point of view as the restrictions for staff receiving free travel don’t impinge on the everyday traveller as they wouldn’t normally travel due to cost of tickets (matter of fact talking to the guys I work with who don’t due to the cost) and you have to give up seats for fare paying passengers thus not taking away anything from the travelling public!   

[Michael Hodgson]

17 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

 

What is now usually referred to as Ulster is a Unionist hijack of the name.

I remember a phone call from a customer who have me his address in Alcester, which he pronounced as "All-ses-ter".  I said I thought everybody who lived there pronounced it "All-ster".  He said they do, but I'm sick my letters being sent to Northern Ireland!

[LBRJ]

2 hours ago, RichardT said:

I’ll take your word about this Christian Walmar fellow. Just don’t confuse him with Christian Wolmar, who isn’t an expert in any field, never mind railways.

 

RT

I have had the misfortune to "converse" with one of the CW's mentioned.

Let us just say that I am a better informed journalist than he is a railway man...  

 

Overall though back on topic, from my "outsider, looking in to what once was, and may be again" perspective this doesn't seem to be the worst idea about the future of the Railways I have ever heard.

[TheSignalEngineer]

6 hours ago, LBRJ said:

from my "outsider, looking in to what once was, and may be again" perspective this doesn't seem to be the worst idea about the future of the Railways I have ever heard

 

At the risk of getting told off for politics, it does seem rather radical for a government who have repeatedly demonstrated their inability for joined-up thinking.

 

[Oldddudders]

14 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

When I moved into Glasgow Control in 1984, the senior Controllers in Management Grades (MS1 to 4) got First Class privs; Not that it bothered me, as a lowly Grade A Controller I never expected to rise that high. By the time I did actually become an MS1, BR had moved the goalposts and First Class now applied to MS2 and above; This was also still when MS grades who were paid for overtime (which had to be the case in Control) only got the money every 13 weeks, and the first 20 hours O/T each period was not paid at all. And of course, when I later became an MS2, First Class was now MS3 and above ! Not until NR days did I eventually become entitled to First Class, a privilege for which I am extremely grateful. 

 

Lots of detail I didn't know there. How privileges have been eroded! When I joined in 1966 senior clerks in Special B got first class travel, under the Grade Restructuring they then became Clerical Officer 4, and newcomers to that grade did not get first class. When I got to MS1 in 1979 I got first class, and MS2 got me a Regional Pass. That was in 1981 and the MS1 DCCs in our Control at Beckenham definitely didn't work Sundays because they couldn't be paid overtime.

 

In 1984 I was MS4 and got an all-stations BR first class pass. When I got to MS5, as i worked in London I got free tube travel. When I got to EG I got a London bus pass too. There was some reciprocity with London Transport officers, obviously. 

 

As for free tickets, after one month's service in 1966, I received a Privilege Ticket Identity Card, entitling me to buy unlimited quarter-price tickets, for my own use only. I think I was also entitled to 4 free tickets per annum, and as has been pointed out, one always chose Dover to Wick or similar. After a year's service, Continental Free Travel became available, with one free ticket par annum, and unlimited purchases of reduced rate travel, typically half-price. London to Vienna became the ticket of choice, routed via Switzerland. The BR Free Ticket thing was rather labour-intensive, with clerks making the things out, so then the Boxes became the way to do it, in about 1981, I think. 

 

Privatisation hamstrung much of this stuff for incoming staff, much like it threw out some babies with bathwater in refusing free duty travel to infrastructure maintenance staff, pushing up industry costs. The extent to which new arrangements will be designed to obtain the buy-in of the staff remains to be seen. We can only hope. 

[SGP]

Great British Railways will eventually become British Railways .... the same as New Pence became Pence.

[corneliuslundie]

From a recent issue of Welsh Railways Archive, magazine of the Welsh Railways Research Circle:

Just the ticket

Transport for Wales has just (September 2019) announced that it is to introduce a “carnet” ticket system. However, this is nothing new – quite apart from the systems which have been operating in other countries for some years.

In January 1899 the Cambrian Railways advertised the launch of First Class 1000 and 500 mile tickets, the coupons of which enabled passengers to travel between stations on the Cambrian Railways. The tickets were priced at £5-5-0 for 1000 miles and £2-17-6 for 500 miles, or 1.26p a mile for the 1000 mile ticket and 1.38p a mile for the smaller ticket. Unlike the carnet style of ticket, they could be used on any line of the company for any journey. However since there was a coupon for each mile of travel bought, they were rather more bulky than today’s offerings.

For comparison, in 1869 the Cambrian was offering First Class excursion tickets from Pwllheli to Aberystwyth for 5s 6d for a return journey of 71 miles, or 0.47 p per mile.

Source: “Mishaps on the Cambrian Railways (1864-1922)” by Elwyn V Jones (Severn Press, 1972)

So noting new under the sun.

Jonathan

[Ron Ron Ron]

12 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

.........in 1869 the Cambrian was offering First Class excursion tickets from Pwllheli to Aberystwyth for 5s 6d for a return journey of 71 miles, or 0.47 p per mile.

...and we think that ticket prices are expensive today?

Average male earnings in 1869 was around 4 shillings a day (1s/8p for labourers in agriculture), or £1.10 pw in today’s money, based on a 6 day working week (£0.50 pw for labourers in agriculture).

 

 

.

[Mallard60022]

On 20/05/2021 at 00:19, newbryford said:

As long as they keep painting the test trains yellow.....................

No Chance mate. Blue with FLAGS, loads of Flags. Just sayin' for a mate that works for NR and has already placed their bets and contracted a whole set of Decals/Transfers from a Supplier.

[AMJ]

Before this from friends who work for various passenger TOC's they seem to think to save the industry quite a bit of brass that liveries and companies will remain with the same name (similar to Scotrail) just with a logo on the door changed to say who operates it today.

 

It will be far easier for the general public to identify with LNER, GWR, EMR etc without needing the knowledge of who is operating it today.

[Michael Hodgson]

52 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

For comparison, in 1869 the Cambrian was offering First Class excursion tickets from Pwllheli to Aberystwyth for 5s 6d for a return journey of 71 miles, or 0.47 p per mile.

Source: “Mishaps on the Cambrian Railways (1864-1922)” by Elwyn V Jones (Severn Press, 1972)

So noting new under the sun.

Jonathan

Interesting that the Victorians saw this ticketing system as a mishap. 

[Mallard60022]

Horror of horrors. I hear the system is to be DCC. Could be interesting for the entrenched! 

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

There was some reciprocity with London Transport officers, obviously. 

 

Indeed, and thankfully it carries forward into retirement. Not that I've been on a train for probably 18 months ....... beginning to consider the possibility now though.

[Mike_Walker]

I do think it's good of Shapps to put his name on the plan so that going forward when it all goes Pete Tong, we'll forever be reminded of who was to blame...

 

I see it only took him a few hours to admit fares "may continue to rise" when what he really meant was "will continue to rise".  Worse, if GBR are going to be responsible for all ticketing, with a simplified structure and no use restrictions, has anyone among the Great British Public realised what this implies?  Logically, an end to all APEX and other journey specific "bargain" fares which TOCs offer to sell otherwise empty seats on less popular services.  Few of the general public seem to realise that most "ordinary" fares are set by the Government and not the operators. Watching the press preview on Sky News on Wednesday evening it was obvious journalists from left and right leaning papers haven't a clue either.

 

In a few months, we'll come to see we are being conned by the politicians once again.

 

[Nearholmer]

3 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

it does seem rather radical for a government who have repeatedly demonstrated their inability for joined-up thinking

 

I read it more thoroughly last night, and if I were to put aside all cynicism, bitter experience, and fears about the sheer difficulty of implementing what it describes in the real world, and take a deep draft of optimism, I'd give it at about 8/10 (which is a high score!).

 

I would hold back one point for failure to confront accountability and regulation firmly enough though. It retains accountability to parliament via a single minister, and a big role for the ORR (beyond safety) as a proxy for the public interest, both of which will, IMO, stifle the sort of real public accountability that is needed.

 

The second point that I would hold back would be because, while it recognises the skills gaps, and the cultural problems, what it says about fixing those serious problems seems a bit too airy-fairy for my comfort ........ I can't see how it will deliver results quickly enough. I guess we have to put our faith in youth, and hope to goodness that the leadership programme coughs out half a dozen fresh-faced Chris Greens and Adrian Shooters (or their more diverse equivalents) a week.

 

 

[Mallard60022]

OK, as some of you know I am often 'political'. Not here though and I say this with a genuine interest in the largest remaining 'heavy' Industry employer in the Country.

I think this sounds an interesting idea as it has been presented. What I would like to know is this; have the Government or Advisors for this move, looked at successful best practice in Countries where the Railways are thriving and successful with huge amounts of investment, e.g. Poland?  Railways, both use and development, in Poland make ours look like a Triang Train Set, operated with a Battery Controller and managed by a 10 year old kid lying on the floor in the Living Room. This is with huge respect to the front line Staff  from all sectors on our System who have been working under huge restraint and not very joined up management for far too long. There are exceptions of course. Please do not read me wrong here, however the investment 'abroad' in thriving countries, and the operations, are generally very much more exciting and desired than it seems they are here. The Top Gear 'attitude' of so many media people makes me weep.

P

Edited May 21, 2021 by Mallard60022

[Allegheny1600]

While I agree totally with @Mike_Walker above, may I dare for a few moments, just to hope that we may see more like this?

Copyright: Neil Harvey 156 on Flickr (are you on here?)

Photo deliberately chosen as the “GBRf” is barely visible!

[2mm Andy]

7 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

OK, as some of you know I am often 'political'. Not here though and I say this with a genuine interest in the largest remaining 'heavy' Industry employer in the Country.

I think this sounds an interesting idea as it has been presented. What I would like to know is this; have the Government or Advisors for this move, looked at successful best practice in Countries where the Railways are thriving and successful with huge amounts of investment, e.g. Poland?  Railways, both use and development, in Poland make ours look like a Triang Train Set, operated with a Battery Controller and managed by a 10 year old kit lying on the floor in the Living Room. This is with huge respect to the front line Staff  from all sectors on our System who have been working under huge restraint and not very joined up management for fat too long. There are exceptions of course. Please do not read me wrong here, however the investment 'abroad' in thriving countries and the operations, are generally very much more exciting and desired than it seems they are here.

P

 

The Williams Review does appear to have examined a number of overseas railway systems, but Poland doesn't seem to be amongst them;

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/current-railway-models-great-britain-and-overseas-an-evidence-paper

 

Andy

[kandc_au]

7 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

While I agree totally with @Mike_Walker above, may I dare for a few moments, just to hope that we may see more like this?

Copyright: Neil Harvey 156 on Flickr (are you on here?)

Photo deliberately chosen as the “GBRf” is barely visible!

What a lovely pic!

Khris

[LNER4479]

Well, seeing as this more or less officially ends the 1994 privatisation model (not that it was exactly in rude health in recent years), here are my thoughts, for what they're worth.

 

Starting as I did in 1986 as a BR management trainee, I ended up spending 11 years of my career working for BR (the TOU I was with - North West Rustic Railways - was one of the last to be franchised). Handy that, as I attained MS4 and the first class pass that came with it in June 1994.

 

The rest has been under the privatised rail industry. Finished full time three years ago but still doing work as a one-man-band contractor. So hopefully I can comment on the last 25 odd years from a point of view of contrasting what I saw compared to those first 11 years.

 

Successes? Well, it is a matter of fact that passenger usage figures more than doubled from a level of 750mill/year in 1994. And there has been much investment in terms of many new train fleets in particular (I've always been a TOC / rolling stock person so can't comment so knowledgeably on the infrastructure side although there has no doubt been investment there as well, eg WCML Trent valley, Reading station, Norton Bridge flyover, etc)

 

How much of that would have happened anyway under BR? Impossible to say of course. But reports of the privatised industry costing five times as much as the latter day BR subsidies does rather lead one to conclude that the championed successes of privatisation were nothing that BR couldn't have achieved had it been given the money. It's generally the case that new rolling stock  on a route will attract more custom, especially if it comes with an improved timetable / route improvements (eg Leeds Aire Valley services). Factor in London congestion charging, suppressed M'way building and the green / environmental agenda and perhaps the increased ridership result is not so much of a surprise afterall.

 

Worst excesses? I recall seeing former colleagues at each others' throats either side of the Railtrack / TOC contract wall in the early days of privatisation (ref Schedule 8 performance payments). That was particularly depressing. All that hot air and vitriol going into arguing the toss over odd minutes lost here and there, driven by the nonsense of £100/minute (or whatever it was). It was all averaged out over a 28 day period anyway. One period Railtrack would pay the TOC; the next period the TOC would pay it back to Railtrack. Far better to direct all that time and efforts into working together to jointly tackle the root cause of the actual delays.

 

The nadir? Hatfield. As an industry person, you could only hang your head in shame at the knowledge that the drive for profit and contractual intransigence had got the infrastructure to a state of actual falling to pieces under the weight of the trains. Utterly shameful.

 

I've never been a fan of managing by contract. And the more contracts there are, the more barriers exist at which costs bleed and blame cultures exist. TOCS, Railtrack, ROSCOs, suppliers, consultants(!) Millions of pounds have been sucked out of the industry by these mechanisms.

 

So I give a cautious welcome to Great British Railways. Not that BR was in any way perfect but if there is some genuinely unifying force at the top that can bang heads together and get railway(wo)men working together again as railway(wo)men to focus on the most important matter at hand - running an efficient railway system for the greater good of the country - then all power to its elbow.

 

I'm not holding my breath though. As one hard-bitten senior BR manager once said to me, in the midst of yet another internal re-org:

 

'There's only about five different ways to run a railway' (pause for dramatic effect)

'... and they've all been tried'.

Edited May 21, 2021 by LNER4479

[Ron Ron Ron]

56 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Well, seeing as this more or less officially ends the 1994 privatisation model (not that it was exactly in rude health in recent years),........

 

An excellent post, but I have to ask.

 

I thought the 1994 privatisation model was done away with years ago, falling away piece by piece over the years with subsequent reorganisations of the regulatory structure, the swift end to Railtrack after only a few short years, the increasing involvement of the dead hand of the DafT and the changing landscape and shape of the franchises?

 

As a "lay person", your timeline also seems to miss out the last 19 years, or am I mistaken?

 

Cheers

Ron

 

 

 

.

[BMS]

I'm contemplating GWR (original) livery and font; " Great (Crest) British" where crest is double arrows or Union Jack. In the later case facing left on each side.

[TheSignalEngineer]

3 hours ago, SGP said:

Great British Railways will eventually become British Railways .... 

Then in about 2035 there will be an announcement shortening it to British Rail as it will make the decals 25% cheaper to produce.

[caradoc]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

What I would like to know is this; have the Government or Advisors for this move, looked at successful best practice in Countries where the Railways are thriving and successful with huge amounts of investment, e.g. Poland?  Railways, both use and development, in Poland make ours look like a Triang Train Set, operated with a Battery Controller and managed by a 10 year old kid lying on the floor in the Living Room.

 

Two points to make; As an ex-employee, and still regular rail traveller throughout the UK, I do not recognise in any shape or form your opinion of our railways. And as to investment.... Crossrail ? HS2 ?