If you were starting a new rtr manufacturer...

[Enfys_Rainbow]

Rather than producing RTR, I wish someone would make plastic loco kits with the moulding and fit standard manufacturers like Eduard and Tamiya manage for their military models. 

[andyman7]

Didn't a certain Mr Jones try and take on the big boys a few years back, with spectacular results?

Q: How do you make a small fortune in model railway manufacturing?

A: Start with a large one.

[Phil Parker]

46 minutes ago, Enfys_Rainbow said:

Rather than producing RTR, I wish someone would make plastic loco kits with the moulding and fit standard manufacturers like Eduard and Tamiya manage for their military models. 

 

Airfix could do it - the tooling for their latest high-end kits costs around £100k. Even a fairly basic aeroplane can each 9 months of a designers time. The question is, would they sell enough to make it worth the investment? Would you pay over £100 for a fully detailed, inside and out, 7mm scale Deltic? I think they would sell, but Airfix obviously don't feel in sufficient numbers to make such a project viable. Railway modellers expect trains to move. A tiny number have the skills to motorise a plastic kit, but not enough to satisfy the bank manager.

[adb968008]

I’m not sure theres room for more rtr OO manufacturers.

i think its too crowded as it is.

 

I also think theres too much duplication of existing tooling, so far Ive been disappointed (based on upgrade Quality offered for the cost of the upgraded model ) on nearly everything thats been recently retooled that duplicates anything post c1995.

if anyone was to enter this market, do what Accurascale have done.. find a niche and exploit it.. theyve excelled in wagons and modern image generally.

The other route is like KR.. go for the extreme edge of the hobby, but make sure it is paid up front.

Rapido certainly seems to be having a hard time finding a niche in the UK, though it looks like they are finding their feet now.
 

if I were to enter the hobby, it would be Modern image EMU/DMUs made to the kind of detail level that Hornbys new tooled mk1’s are made from.

Ideally those units would be where there is multiple identical vehicles (less toolings) and lots of liveries/geographical spread.

Finally i’d cut out as much electrical gubbins as possible (lights, through wiring etc), but design it in conjunction with an after market supplier, so they could sell upgrade kits to those who want to pimp their ride on their own dime.

That way theres a lower cost, lower market entry cost offering for people of todays railways, but with thought to those who are willing to get a decent high end scale model at their own cost/skills or 3rd party.

What would I pick.. DMU: 175/180 family, EMU: Electrostar.

 

The rub is, China doesn't like budget, their manufacturers make money on upselling, lots of parts and intricacies..time needs bodies and earns more money... and that translates directly to higher per unit %’s on a sale.. 30% of £200 rrp is less than 30% of £400 rrp for little extra base cost... so its easy to see why manufacturers go that way.

 

I certainly wouldn't enter with 15 different models, many of which have been done before, then try to burn down the market doors with so much competition.

 

indeed looking at the market I wouldn't consider to enter it at all, I think its set to burst.

Edited May 22, 2021 by adb968008

[mdvle]

On 21/05/2021 at 02:59, Joseph_Pestell said:

This is by way of being a bit of marketing research. Given the current situation between Hornby and retailers (which seems to be a recurring event every couple of years), I think that we need a new entrant into the market if we are to keep the hobby vibrant. What should this new entrant produce?

 

To return to the origin of this, I think you are approaching the problem from the wrong direction.

 

A new entrant can't, given the cost of tooling, take on Hornby/Bachmann with their decades of tooling long since paid for.

 

So the question instead should be what can retailers do to drive business to themselves, where they can then have the opportunity of also selling other in stock items or even providing a quality service that results in a repeat customer.

 

While some of the bigger retailers can afford the risk of a loco, there are likely still many opportunities for goods wagons (much like Rainbow Railways is doing with their partnership with Revolution for the TU013A TUA caustic soda tank wagon) or for exclusive runs of liveries or popular numbers on an existing/announced product.

 

Or even look beyond rail - a Canadian retailer on a podcast mentioned that not only do exclusive liveries generate sales beyond the actual item but he was also very successful doing an exclusive run on a transit bus for the city near him - not only did he sell to model railway customers but also to bus collectors and to employees/former employees of the transit agency.

 

These, and potentially other ideas, are low(ish) cost/low risk ways to generate additional revenue and bring new customers into both a physical shop and a online shop (again, the retailer I mentioned above that his exclusives resulted in sales around the world, and some of those customers make plans to visit his physical store when they visit the area on holiday).

 

 

 

[charliepetty]

On 21/05/2021 at 09:52, Allegheny1600 said:

I’d brag about how serious I was by “putting my house on the line” and getting everyone to pay for my research trips to the Bahamas, Maldives and other exotic locations via crowd funding.

Oh wait, . . . . !

Is that booked with DJ Holidays!

[Joseph_Pestell]

14 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Starting a new train company under your scenario (15 locos / 10 coaches) would be very expensive.  ScaleTrains has publicly indicated that the tooling for a new loco is $200k, around $100k for a passenger coach, and $60k and up for a goods wagon.  So 15x200 + 3x100 (to allow for 3 different lines of coach) means you are over $3m in startup costs just for the tooling - say double that for research, CAD, production, advertising, interest costs paid prior to getting a single payment and you need to go to the bank for $6m.

 

Sorry, but the bank manager may well be polite as he says sorry and escorts you out the door and then goes to lunch with his coworkers and they all have a good laugh at the client he met with that morning.

 

 

Nobody has claimed that it is more profitable - rather that is is profitable.

 

There is a reason why the more basic and affordable models are generally older tooling - because you effectively can't cover the tooling and development costs on a basic item given the low potential sales.

 

So - super-detailed makes a profit, new tool basic model loses money.

 

 

But you are contradicting yourself with your "new" - you effectively are admitting that the only way this "railroad" item for the EU market exists is because Hornby already has the tooling.

 

Hornby would not, nor would anyone else, tool up that CC72000 today and sell it for that price.

 

Do you really think that I have not done the maths? It's where I started from in scoping the range of products. More would indeed be harder to finance.

 

And who said anything about a bank? Get out there and look at some balance sheets.

 

This thread is part of that process. Development costs will vary from model to model. To take the Mk1 as an example, you get a whole range of models which share a lot of tooling.

 

I am not familiar with Scale Trains. But I think that $200k figure would be inclusive of all aspects of "tooling" which you have as additional. Making the tool itself is not that expensive with modern technology.

 

Finally, it is Hornby themselves who are pushing retailers in this direction. If retailers are to lose a major part of their turnover because they can't get product from Hornby, they have to replace that turnover with something else or their businesses will fail. On past track record, Bachmann are not about to step into the void and produce more.

[Joseph_Pestell]

8 hours ago, Enfys_Rainbow said:

Rather than producing RTR, I wish someone would make plastic loco kits with the moulding and fit standard manufacturers like Eduard and Tamiya manage for their military models. 

 

An interesting idea. Revell have done it for years with a small range of German locos and coaches.

7 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Airfix could do it - the tooling for their latest high-end kits costs around £100k. Even a fairly basic aeroplane can each 9 months of a designers time. The question is, would they sell enough to make it worth the investment? Would you pay over £100 for a fully detailed, inside and out, 7mm scale Deltic? I think they would sell, but Airfix obviously don't feel in sufficient numbers to make such a project viable. Railway modellers expect trains to move. A tiny number have the skills to motorise a plastic kit, but not enough to satisfy the bank manager.

Surely, if one has enough skill to build a super-detailed kit, motorisation is easy - so long as the kit is designed with this in mind.

[Dunsignalling]

A new producer offering five different BR Mk1s? Yes, it's the "must-do" vehicle, as is (probably) an 08 shunter. However, to really take off, they would have to beat what's already out there on both price and quality so there's not a brass farthing to be made from them.

 

The r-t-r OO segment is already arguably overcrowded and anyone with mass market ambitions would best wait and see if Hornby eventually destroys itself (as it will if they are getting things as wrong as you suggest) then jump in and buy it.. Somehow though, even if that did happen, I can't envisage prices dropping by 25% or every retailer getting exactly the quantities they want as a result.

 

I'm with Nearholmer on this one. For a new venture with aspirations to grow at a sensible pace, r-t-r O-16.5 would have everything going for it, Cuteness, Compactness of layout combined with a satisfying chunkiness of individual models. These days, NG will have been the first trains a lot of people ever encountered, too.

 

7mm Double Fairlie, Dolgoch, Lyn or Quarry Hunslet? Where do I pre-order...

 

John

 

  

Edited May 23, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[stivesnick]

One area of railway modelling that has not been mentioned so far are trams. Ideal for the space starved modeller. 

 

So how about a new range of models comprising:

 

*Traditional and new types of tram

* A range of city buildings

* Inset track with nice sharp curves 

* Some moving road vehicles 

* A computer control system to allow multiple routes and services to be operated. 

 

This may appeal to a new set of modellers, where the main interest is creating the city scene and the control system. Perhaps there may be some appeal in allowing people to create some sort of idealised city of the future with sustainable transport systems. 

 

Or how about developing a Moon or Mars Railway system 2100? This could have global appeal so increase potential sales volumes.  

 

 

Nick 

 

[PatB]

Any new entrant offering a significant range (rather than offering the odd individual model, as most of the commissioners currently do) is going to need a unique selling point to stand up against the established players. The established players offer pretty broad coverage of the Big 4/British Railways/BR/Privatisation eras. Yes, there are gaps, but they're shrinking and, by the nature of commerce, will be those areas which are difficult and/or less profitable to fill.

 

So, as a few others have touched on, I'd seriously think about pre-Grouping. And I mean properly pre-Grouping, rather than the easy way out by offering what are, essentially, Big 4 prototypes that were designed in December 1922, or prototypes that were pre-Group but offered only as rebuilt by the Big 4/British Railways. So certainly pre-WW1 and maybe pre-1900. Not sure if I'd go quite as far back as Johnster's 1840-1870, but I wouldn't completely rule it out either.

 

The generally positive responses to Hattby's generic coaches and Hornby's Wainwright and Terrier suggest that there is a market there. Pre-Grouping has much to recommend it. Attractive and varied liveries, short trains, stations that probably more closely resembled the more cartoonish efforts on tourist lines (acres of enamel adverts, flower beds and baskets, bright new paint etc.), and more. And Peco's bullhead track makes it slightly easier to create a plausible layout. Yes, I know it's not an accurate representation of pre-Group practice, but I'd counter by saying that, at 16.5 mm gauge, it's not an accurate representation of any era. And it's better for the purpose than their FB Streamline. The plethora of different companies make it difficult to cover well, as has been discussed ad nauseum on the generic coach threads, but let's have a look at how it might be done.

 

Starting with locos, I don't see it being economic to tool up for specific designs for multiple companies, but what about the prototype's "generic" designs? That is, stock designs from the likes of Beyer-Peacock and Sharpe-Stewart, which were sold to many different companies. Others will know more about this than I, but might it be possible to find, say, an 0-6-0T or 2-4-0T general purpose tank loco, an 0-6-0 tender goods, and a mixed traffic mogul, supplied by commercial loco builders to several different companies? If so, there's the core of a useful range. If cabs and boiler fittings varied from railway to railway, but on the same basic loco, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to arrange for that on the models without major tooling changes. Turn of the C20th locos tended to be very "clean" designs, so it shouldn't be too hard to provide prototypical detailing without vast numbers of fragile, and expensive to add, twiddly bits.

 

For coaching stock, whilst the brief is to not worry about duplication, I'm going to say that I think Hattby have got things well enough covered for now for non-bogie stock. I think, though, that there's scope for some generic short bogies (say 40'-45'). Brake-third, all-third and compo should cover it to start with, maybe with a full-brake as the first introduction after initial launch.

 

Goods wagons are fairly generic anyway (cue howls of protest from the purists). For maximum versatility, pick prototypes from the big commercial builders for general merchandise, and RCH compliant designs for minerals. Again, I'm going to upset people here, but I'd suggest that you could get away with a minimal number of underframe designs. Brake vans are more of an issue, with companies using their own designs. Maybe start with a couple of vans from the bigger companies (LNWR/MR/GN/NE, take your pick) and then expand the range over time.

 

So there you have it. A range that, whilst it won't satisfy the P4ists, would do very nicely for people like me who quite like the idea of pre-Grouping for its visual appeal and space saving properties (short trains in pretty liveries against spotless, colourful stations) but haven't the time or skill for extensive kit building and who need to look stuff up to spot detail errors (so we don't). With careful stock selection it doesn't even have to be that inaccurate.

[Kris]

14 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Best outcome for who am exactly?

Hornby going under would only be the best outcome for people who dislike Hornby. 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

And who said anything about a bank? Get out there and look at some balance sheets.

 

 

 

Strangely enough, unless you are a multi-millionaire with cash to burn then 'Banks' are going to be rather essential to a new RTR entrant. Just take a look at Raoido and the delays they have had in launching their UK arm precisely because it was proving incredibly hard to open a UK bank account!. Now I know they had extra difficulties because they are Canadians trying to open a UK account, but even so it shows just how important 'Banks' are to the process.

 

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Finally, it is Hornby themselves who are pushing retailers in this direction. If retailers are to lose a major part of their turnover because they can't get product from Hornby, they have to replace that turnover with something else or their businesses will fail. On past track record, Bachmann are not about to step into the void and produce more.

 

Even if you had someone come along tomorrow and set up a new RTR company its going to take well over a year to start to start supplying their first models - and if you want to enter with a bang and have a large range from the get go we are talking more like 5 years. Thats an awful lot of time for Hornby and Bachmann to get their houses in order.

 

You also need to consider customer reaction - again I highlight the fact that a number of retailers have said customers walk away when Hornby products are not available rather than buy 'unknown' Bachmann stuff. Granted this is normally from what might be termed the 'casual buyer' (i.e. grandparents buying a 'toy train' for their grandchild - but on the other hand this is precisely the sector of the modelling market which is most likely to be buying 'basic' models.

 

Another point to consider is how much of a typical model shops customers are newbies - as opposed to seasoned modellers who know what they want and have a specific goal in mind (e.g. modelling a TMD or a GWR branch termini for example). They are probably not going to turn around and say "oh well I will have X instead of Y" just because Y is available and X isn't. Yes if the shortage becomes apparent early enough it might produce a change in tack - but if you have been building up a large fleet of BR blue diesels for example you are not going to suddenly change your model by 40 years and waste all the effort put in so far simply because a 66 is available but a 24 isn't.

 

I have said it before and I will say it again - you are pedalling a solution looking for a problem. The economics, the market demographic and nature of todays modelling trends mean somebody jumping in to 'take on Hornby' with a large range of models, particularly 'basic ones' from the off simply isn't viable.

 

There is space for new entrants - but they are going to have to start small and pick their choices carefully so as to avoid direct duplication / competition if they are to survive. Given enough time is possible that in a decade or more they might conceivably have got to the stage where they have the market presence and financial reserves to take on Hornby with a 'basic range' of models, but thats not a given.

 

Hornby meanwhile will survive in some form - be it the current setup or a new owner who has bough up the assets and brand name if the worst does happen. Regardless of current supply issues it will still remain the dominant model railway supplier as far as the wider UK public is concerned - and as I said earlier could quite easily decide to junk supporting model railway shops and move to an 'online orders only' business model which dominates the electrical and clothing retail sectors these days.

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

29 minutes ago, Kris said:

Hornby going under would only be the best outcome for people who dislike Hornby. 

 

Except Hornby would re-emerge - the brand name is a valuable asset and I'm sure some venture capitalist would try and do something with it which wouldn't necessarily be to the benefit of UK modelers or more particularly UK model shops!

 

The moto 'Beware what you wish for' is very relevant here - as we have seen (and are seeing now with respect to UK Farmers and Australia) what certain people confidently say will happen is not what actually happens post event - yet in most cases is entirely predictable when if you bother to study the finer details rather than relying on emotion and bluster....

[dunnyrail]

10 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

The level of detail is only part of the issue - the small size of the N market means it is tougher to cover tooling costs.  ScaleTrains guessed tooling a N loco was about 80% of the cost of tooling HO, yet the N market isn't 80% of HO or OO.  That means each unit sold needs to cover a higher percentage of the development costs than an equivalent OO product.

 

This same issue would face this hypothetical entry into TT - smaller sales volume means higher cost per unit to cover tooling.  Don't offer detailed models and then you don't have an attractive enough product to convince OO (or N) modellers to switch scales - or to convince someone to choose TT over OO/N.

 

The possible route for TT (as discussed in the Rapido area a month or so ago) would be to go with accurate European TT instead of British TT - but the existing British TT base are (understandably) against the idea - but if TT were to thrive it needs something to convince people to use it like the track matching the models.

 

 

No need to create - there already is a Bluetooth based control system that one could simply by the appropriate hardware for.

My hypothetical TT is for when I win the Euro Millions, so I am not that bothered what the existing base of TT think. I was a member of the TT Gauge Society many moons ago and loved the scale but eventually the ‘face’ view got to me with its poor look of track gauge. I feel exactly the same about 00 which is why my small 00 Layout is a curved affair with Operating Location in the middle so that a front on view is nit possible.

[tomparryharry]

The person who invents a sequential  tampo machine will be on to some serious business.  With 1/2 million 16 ton wagons, the list goes on. Pre-grouping wagons, such as Cambrian Combine was in the 10,000 range, and just after that, Stephenson Clarke. 

 

It's not unrealistic to suggest that a regular monthly subscription  would enable a 7-plank wagon, with it's individual number, to be released bi-monthly, or quarterly. The business would know that it's regular income, and turnover to remain fluid.  That said, the quality has to remain good, otherwise it'll all go wrong in the blink of an eye.  The premise is that every pre-determined date, you would get a new wagon within that livery, but the number would random within the accepted run of numbers for that livery.  The amount of wagons you buy would be determined by your personal choice. It could be monthly, bi-monthly, quarterly, bi-annual, yearly, until the number run is exhausted, and multiples thereof.  Naturally, you'll be able to purchase singly, and the number will still remain a random number drawn from the series. 

 

"I wonder what wagon number I'll get this month?"

 

 

Collieries such as Ocean, Burnyeat Brown, Powell Duffryn, Norths Navigation, plus the thousands of liveries of south Wales businesses awaits.  One upside is that we are not limited to scale.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[Hal Nail]

23 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

The person who invents a sequential  tampo machine will be on to some serious business.

Yes we are tending to focus on how anyone else could compete in the current market, with or without Hornby, but realistically some sort of manufacturing innovation will more likely shake things up. Anything which allows production far cheaper than now, or far more detailed or different in some way, at a competitive retail price, will mean all the obvious good sellers are up for grabs again.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, stivesnick said:

One area of railway modelling that has not been mentioned so far are trams. Ideal for the space starved modeller. 

 

So how about a new range of models comprising:

 

*Traditional and new types of tram

* A range of city buildings

* Inset track with nice sharp curves 

* Some moving road vehicles 

* A computer control system to allow multiple routes and services to be operated. 

 

 

 

 

Nick 

 

Mostly already available but it's a niche market.

[adb968008]

At some stage, I think professionally painted rtr 3D will become the norm, and we may see a new market opening for parts suppliers in China to a 3D rtr industry when it comes to more niche models. (Mass selling models like BR classes, mainstream wagons and coaches wont change), but technology could open the door for batch rtr 3D of obscure types not viable using injection moulding, but constrained by the kit building & painting constraints today.

 

Rails box vans is a good starting point, I think it will become much more of a norm over the next decade as technology lends itself closer to it and reduces costs, opening the door for anything..wagons, coaches, locos, infrastructure etc in 3D painted rtr.

 

That will also cross the cost chasm for niche items like obscure wagons/ locos of limited interest etc... which today many of which already exist, but require lots of kit building efforts to cross the line.

 

The tech still has a way to come.. too brittle, warping, granularity, after work required, not to mention painting and sourcing wheels etc), but 10 years ago it wasnt an option at all, and now its 50% here.

 

There are some garden shed businesses making 3D kits and offering part painted already, if one buys its own tampo printing and professional spray facilities it will be taking one more step closer towards a batch production rtr 3d business to which I refer...the final step will be the mass market commercialisation of the basics “metal work” & electrics required to make it move... which is do-able now with hard research or taking a short cut using an existing rtr chassis.. it’ll get there.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by adb968008

[Philou]

Very interesting thread - almost a 'what if' there was no longer Hornby. However, one thing hasn't been really explored in detail: Is there enough spare cash to support the trade as is without a new entrant dipping his toe in the water?

 

I don't know if I'm a 'typical' customer or not but due to Covid, my buying habits have changed - whether it will stay that way or not, I don't know. I thought that by not going out I would have had some extra cash to spend, but it hasn't turned out that way and my railway spending has gone to a few chosen suppliers, new or recent entrants to market, rather than the more well-established manufacturers. That's primarily because I like 'quirky' and modern block trains and there hasn't been much by way of other products that I 'need' rather than what I 'want'.

 

Am I part of a changing demographic? Would I spend money on another new entrant? Do I need lesser detailed MkIs? I don't think so in respect of MkIs as I would not buy lesser detailed anything if it was avoidable AND I have enough of them anyway - as an example.

 

I note that Joseph is back in France and would seem to me that there is a huge Euro-market of lesser-known locos waiting to be modelled. Perhaps that's where there is a market to be explored rather that what I perceive to be an already crowded UK market. Question though arises: Is there more railway modelling disposable income in Euro-land than in the UK?

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Edited May 23, 2021 by Philou
Spulling!

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Philou said:

 

I note that Joseph is back in France and would seem to me that there is a huge Euro-market of lesser-known locos waiting to be modelled. Perhaps that's where there is a market to be explored rather that what I perceive to be an already crowded UK market. Question though arises: Is there more railway modelling disposable income in Euro-land than in the UK?

 

is there more disposable income, no, but theres many more people in the European marketplace than the UK, and they all share 1 HO gauge and real trains cross borders making the hobby interest more varied.

 

Eastern Europe is the big growth market right now.

Especially Poland.

 

The odd thing is, the company that started the trend, exited after just 1 model.. Hornby... Hornby made PKPs bi-level commuter stock, sold several versions in quick succession... as far as I saw it was hugely popular and each run sold out... it kicked off a huge spike in interest in Polish modelling.

 

At the time it was exciting and thought provoking, a Polish superdetailed model, but you needed a Roco German outline model painted in PKP colours to pull it.

Hornby should really be credited with opening this new ballooning market.

 

lo and behold

 

in less than 10 years we now have 5 rtr manufacturers making Polish outline (Piko, Robo, ACME, schliesenmodelle, mtb)  and nearly 15 modern loco classes have emerged rtr, SN62, SU45, SU46, ST43, ST44, ET21, ET22, ET41, EU06,EU07,EP08,EP09, EU46, ES64 etc plus steam stalwarts such as the Pt31 and ty2,  dozens of coaches/wagons, one can even buy obscure Polish diesel railcars rtr and next year is an EN57 4 car EMU... (we cant even get todays modern image EMUs here).

 

Indeed any new class of loco in Poland from any of Europes mainstream manufacturers now gets a PKP livery in the first runs (Taurus,  Vectron etc).

 

its come a long way in a very short time from those annual 1x choice Roco German steam locos painted in pkp numbers.

 

There are dozens of new retailers now open in Poland and the hobby is growing at a very fast rate. Hungary seems to be the next market gaining traction too... V43 and V63 just announced... you can almost smell a new M41 being cooked.

If one wanted to keep ones British ties, then a HO 92 probably isn't the worst bet.. theyve clocked up in France,  Czech, Bulgaria, Romania, Austria and Croatia... more obscure european types than these have been done and sold before, and whilst the tooling costs would be the same you’d easily command 300 Euro in HO compared to £180 here,

looking East is probably a better bet than looking North.

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by adb968008

[Phil Parker]

4 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

An interesting idea. Revell have done it for years with a small range of German locos and coaches.

Surely, if one has enough skill to build a super-detailed kit, motorisation is easy - so long as the kit is designed with this in mind.

 

If you think motorisation is easy, you've never built a chassis. Gear meshing? Fitting pickups? All can be made easier with serious R&D but then you end up with something like the DJH beginners range, that people moaned was to expensive, because that R&D has to be paid for. The £100k I quoted was for an unpowered plastic kit too. At least double it for a chassis kit to be developed.

 

Then sell to a market that complained bitterly whe ViTrains left the "modeller" to plug handrails and vac pipes into models. 

 

There might be a reason those Revell kits were never joined by a larger range. 

[47406]

On 20/05/2021 at 23:59, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I would like for you to answer these questions as objectively as possible. This is not a wishlist for what you want but an attempt to build up an idea of what would be a viable range to bring to market.

 

Qu1) Let's assume a constant standard of budget/detail across the range. What should that be: budget, detailed, super-detailed?

Qu2) Diesel era / steam era / a mix?

Qu3) Which 15 locos (inc DMU) would you include? (Note: Don't worry about replicating an item in another manufacturer's catalogue).

Qu4) Which 10 items of coaching stock would you include? (Note: All liveries included).

 

 

Quite the interesting post & thread !  10 years ago i would probably have gone "yeah, right...." and clicked on - but then in recent times we've had the likes of FTG, Cavalex, Accurascale, SLW....  All of them examples of "the little loco that could", so anything is possible.

 

For me, the big thing is that I am spending very little money on locos and stock these days and 3/4 of that is down to the prices that prevail these days (PLEASE - let us NOT go into that black-hole-for-topics-here) - you cite "Budget" end of the spectrum, if there were for example a new Class 47 in the range £75-£85 i would buy, and in quantity. I model to recreate the "old friends" I remember from my time by the lineside, so if I can afford more I will create more. At £135 a loco i buy 1, sometimes 2 new locos a year. At £150 a loco I don't buy.  Those thresholds are as much psychogical as budgetry.

 

Could you do, for example, Duffs in the range of £75-£100 ? In terms of "Budget" I would hope to see a comparable-ish drive train to the competitors, front end and cab door handrails, correct details for flush cab fronts & 'Crewe-cuts', windshield wipers, correct boiler ports, and just generally looking like a Duff by today's standards. All the other finicky little stuff that either falls off or you can't figure out how to attach - totally optional. That would be my definition of "Budget". Hornby's Class 47s with the Lima body and 5-pole motor are a little lacking I think. The price point is right, but the product is a little lacking.

 

As others have said, many things are covered with not-too-bad existing models these days so net new models are diminishing in possibilities. Making a name for yourself may involve pulling the rug out from under existing manufacturers - hat tip to Accurascale there :-)   I do not envy you in trying to pick the right plan to start with, but i do salute Accurascale, KR Models, etc,, for having computed the same variables and made it work !

 

So, your questions.....

Q1 - I think i have answered above

Q2 - I would suggest a mix of steam & diesel models. In the small UK Modellers group where i live in Western Canada the member ship is 90% steam focused. Having said that, being predominantly older gents I am not sure many of them are still adding to their collections, at least not in quantity. Some locos like the GWR Pannier tank, Bullied Pacifics, LNER A1s/A3s/A4s, LMS princesses & Ducheses are just "Iconic" and would maybe have reach beyond the scope of folks who read this forum. For diesels, I like Duffs - did i mention that already ?

Q3 - Class 47 - even with Heljan having a go, there are so many liveries and variations that manufacturers could complete simultaneously.
      - Class 31 could benefit from something in between Hornby's railroad & super-detailed ranges

      - 114 & 127 DMUs - iconic and not done - could you make tooling that would accommodate the roller blinds for the DPU variant ?

      - Trans-Pennine/Intercity DMUs - having seen how things like the Blue Pullman & APT-E have succeeded, I can't help feeling that those iconic DMUs could score the same results

      - GWR The Great Bear. I am not 100% up on the steam scene, has this been done ?  If not I would buy one :-)

      - Class 45 - I am hopeful of the new Heljan effort, but if it doesn't pan out I will still respond (i.e. Buy) if another entrant appears

Q4 - If someone were able to produce Mk.2B and Mk.2C variants side by side I think they would do well. If the paint colour and overall bodyshape matched the Bachmann Mk.2A then the mix'n'match potential would sell more units.

 

I hope that is helpful, at least a little :-)

 

[Jonboy]

On 21/05/2021 at 17:43, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Hi Phil,

 

The whole point of starting this thread was to get some insight into what "family modelling" might be like now. I was a retailer nearly 30 years ago and so doubtless out of touch. So I find your post very relevant and useful.

 

Where do you draw your conclusion that parents would look online rather than at a retailer? And if they Googled "Model Railways", would that not bring up Hatton's website?

 

But I do accept your premise that a new entrant could also retail through Amazon or eBay.

It was 30 years ago that I started trying to get my parents to buy me a Hornby train set for any Xmas or birthday (having the Tomy Thomas vs Bertie racking set, most of the Thomas die cast models etc).

At that point it was by highlighting the single set in the local newsagents catalogues, woolworths or the argos catalog....when 5 or so years after that my parents had the money and bought my younger brother a set it was by taking him to Toysrus to choose from their  selection...

 

The decision to start making regular donations to osbournes in Abingdon, and Hattons via mail order (from model rail adverts) came after the non-specialist shop entry to the hobby.

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, stivesnick said:

Or how about developing a Moon or Mars Railway system 2100? This could have global appeal so increase potential sales volumes.  

 

Is that going to be railways on the Moon and on Mars,, or between the Moon and Mars?

 

Do the UK courts enforce Martian and Lunar copyright and patent laws?  I think you would probably run foul of their intellectual property rights on their permanent way technology, but I'm pretty sure they don't have an extradition treaty yet.

 

I don't think the appeal would be global, but it could well be galactic.