Hornby model shop Tiers system

[tractionman]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

How about CDAs, HAAs, and an LSWR brake van ?

 

 

 

This is the thing, I have a Hornby LSWR van and a Kernow one on order, plus Hatton's generic coaches on order and have bought Hornby generics (in LSWR and LBSCR liveries), and similarly Rails' Terrier and Hornby's--they're complementary to me, as a purchaser, and run side-by-side.

 

cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

If Hornby can't get enough stuff manufactured, presumably other suppliers are similarly affected?
 

There is only so much factory space in China.

Ive said for a while I think the UK OO market is at risk of overheating.

it could be that supply itself will constrain the demand.

 

But also dont forget China itself is seeing increased demand from other countries, who have emerging model railway interests... Poland has had no less than 15 new tooled rtr locos in less than a decade.. plus as many coaches and wagons. Other coubtries such as Portugal, Belgium, Denmark and increasingly Hungary are seeing new markets for specific toolings in their countries.

 

The Siemans Vectron.. its been duplicated not just once.. but by 4 different Manufacturers..Piko, Roco, Trix, LSModels... just in HO).

 

15 years ago, Europeans shunned “made in china” models...hasnt the world changed.

 

Most comes from a few factory floors in China.

owning a factory might be a good thing.

Edited May 25, 2021 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

Well that told us something but I'm not entirely sure what and it's certainly somewhat at odds with Hornby's statement to its shareholders in April telling them that supply lines etc are 'resilient'.

 

One odd thing about it is that it does seem to rather conflate history and dates.  The 2020 range would, assuming the normal pattern, have been ordered by retailers in January but the changes in consumer demand at retail level did not come until March/April with lockdown.  Now I could quite understand orders/supplies having to be restricted when that demand grew (although Hornby's own figures said they were selling more and even edged into a [paper] profit) so they were clearly selling something to the retail etc trade).  But that surely would not affect orders placed in January which, one assumes, had been accepted by Hornby.   Now we all know many of those were subsequently delayed although that isn't actually a new feature because there will still models outstanding from 2019.   We could quite reasonably understand development and production delays in China due to the pandemic and there were already some shipping problems as vessels were seriously delayed waiting annual surveys etc but those are only delays.  They were not cancellations of pre-existing factory orders unless , for example, a factory was unable to reopen etc but then the model would surely have been cancelled for everyone?

 

So what it amounts to is a lack of clear explanation of what happened to the original 2020 orders placed before the pandemic increased consumer demand in Britain.  Delays yes, but why canv cel what retailers have ordered simply because a model is delayed?  And were, for example,  Hattons advising end customers back in 2020 that models were cancelled or that they were unable to supply them at all?   In reality 2020 model year models ordered in January of that year would seem to stand in a different position from subsequent orders UNLESS retailers tried to increase their order after the advent of Lockdown 1.

 

Moving forward to the Tier system introduced this year (so well after 2020 January orders had been accepted in good faith) then - as I've said already - I can see a degree of sense in it.  But one still has to ask why some retailers had their original 2020 orders cut back when Hornby had their fully delivered stock of particular models -  had Hornby oversold them to the retail trade in January 2020 or did they hold back retailers' stock in order to sell it directly because a model proved to be particularly popular?   Maybe this was the sort of thing the Tiers have been introduced to avoid in future because it will save at least some retailers from losing very much of their original order?  And that makes a lot of sense because it introduces order to what might other wise be seen as a situation with lack of proper managerial control.

 

When we come to the allocation of Tiers to retailers there does seem to be some 'interesting' factors in the way it has been applied - from what we know of it and i wonder to what level of retailer premises intelligence it is based on.  And quite frankly I'm amazed that Hornby has apparently admitted. that it has still been supplying people who don't have proper retail premises, especially so after years of denying that they do that.  If they truly want to play fair by retailers anyone in that category should be in Tier 4, i.e. get nothing, not even unwanted dregs.

 

Finally in closing I note that despite considerable professed feeling against discounting and its impact on Hornby's brand image (let along on bona fide retailers) nothing has been said about selling via Amazon - who presumably must rate no higher than Tier 3 if Hornby is observing its own system of supply to retailers.  (And do Hornby's online sales fall into Tier 3 ? - someone had to ask  )

[Geep7]

One thing that does pop to mind is, does this just relate to Hornby's UK outline models, or also their International Brands? There are some of us on RMWeb who model continental N and HO, and apart from a handful of other manufacturers (Roco, Mabar, Piko, etc.) Hornby owns some pretty large manufacturers of Continental N and HO. Most stockists of continental outline, I would guess, would normally be a specialist, who would more than likely not have a 'Bricks and Mortar' shop. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one or 2 physical shops which carry the Hornby International range. Therefore, we're pretty much stuck with either going direct to Hornby and paying full RRP, ordering / visiting the handful of shops that stock it or ordering from overseas, which has become much more difficult (and expensive) since the dreaded B word. I can forsee that this is the way it's going to go for the UK outline stuff as well.

 

With regard to buying from Amazon. I've purchased a few Electrotren items from there, when they were at a very reduced price (some up to half-price), but, they were not available anywhere else. Currently i'm watching a few items on their that are only available either at Amazon, or Hornby direct. The Amazon price is cheaper, so where do I buy from. Pay full price to Hornby, or feed the devil, and save a few pounds?

Edited May 25, 2021 by Geep7
correcting my grammar

[JSpencer]

40 minutes ago, tractionman said:

 

This is the thing, I have a Hornby LSWR van and a Kernow one on order, plus Hatton's generic coaches on order and have bought Hornby generics (in LSWR and LBSCR liveries), and similarly Rails' Terrier and Hornby's--they're complementary to me, as a purchaser, and run side-by-side.

 

cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

 

Indeed I find the idea of Hattons generics being a competing product silly as my 16 SECR types were on order with Hattons long before hand (they invented the idea) and when Hornby did theirs, I brought nine of them (LBSCR/GNR types) which I had no intention of doing from Hattons.

 

There is a spoilt for choice factor from so many makes, but the few that shops add on top have had no influence on my spend with Hornby. If they make something I want, I'll buy it. If little is of interest to me, I won't. I don't set a budget each year.

Edited May 25, 2021 by JSpencer

[woodenhead]

37 minutes ago, Downer said:

Will Hornby reps be using damp fingers to check shop shelves for dust?

[APOLLO]

52 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

FWIW I've used Gostude (amongst  others) a few times and very happy with the service.

 

A bit off topic but Gostude is mentioned a lot or the ebay pages of rmweb. I have bought a couple of items, his prices might be high (hence the flack) but his service is first class - AND he has items in stock !!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

[APOLLO]

54 minutes ago, Downer said:

Will Hornby reps be using damp fingers to check shop shelves for dust?

 

The shop owner should respond with either one middle finger raised, or two in a V formation !!!!!!

 

Brit15

[Ian Hargrave]

22 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

Indeed I find the idea of Hattons generics being a competing product silly as my 16 SECR types were on order with Hattons long before hand (they invented the idea) and when Hornby did theirs, I brought name of them (LBSCR/GNR types) which I had no intention of doing from Hattons.

 

There is a spoilt for choice facture from so many makes, but the few that shops add on top have had no influence on my spend with Hornby. If they make something I want, I'll buy it. If little is of interest to me, I won't. I don't set a budget each year.

Most of us will recall that Hornby tv show a few years back...aka S.K The Movie.Apart with the infamous spat with Rails,there was also a certain amount of edge with Hattons too IIRC. 

[Hroth]

If Hornby intend to restrict supplies to retail outlets they disapprove of (Tier 3?), if that retailer is my preferred supplier I won't be buying Hornby!   Of course, what they don't mention in their Tierology is that Hornby themselves and the "Hornby Store" on Amazon are by definition Tier 0 and unaffected by all the demands and restrictions applied to Tiers 1-3.

 

I wonder if Hornby will be providing an approved logo for each Tier retailer to use?

 

 

 

[Harlequin]

Hornby are very nicely clearing a space in the market for competitors to step in...

 

If you want to sell exclusively online, if some of your products are deemed to compete with Hornby, if you don't want to sell Airfix and other non-railway gubbins, if you can't afford snazzy retail premises, if you don't want to be under the control of the authoritarian regime, whose products do you sell? You need a new supplier.

 

This could be the catalyst that forces people like Rails, Hattons and Dapol to form an even closer alliance and really take Hornby on at manufacturing. No need to hold back any more.

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Harlequin

[adb968008]

8 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Most of us will recall that Hornby tv show a few years back...aka S.K The Movie.Apart with the infamous spat with Rails,there was also a certain amount of edge with Hattons too IIRC. 

Isn't there another tv show coming or did I confuse it with something else ?

 

one assumes if the brand is being raised to high street level, that the marketing will need to be up-focussed to match it.

 

maybe were looking at it the wrong way...

if Hornbys “going big”, it maybe that their relevance to us modellers wanes, but their company profile simply takes them in a different direction to bigger / better markets.. you cant hold it against them for doing it, if thats what they think will work...

 

I cant think of any big UK toy companies, most are overseas owned, so if Hornby becomes a British high street toy brand, good on them, the country needs more of it.. theres plenty of other manufacturers serving our needs, and Hornbys name has potential much greater than just trains. Maybe its just evolution and advancing times.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by adb968008

[woodenhead]

Is there kind of a sick joke in all this, given the idea came from Hornby right in the middle of the pandemic.

 

A tier system with Tier 1 being the best and Tier 3 being the most restrictive - almost like the actual tier systems applied.

 

They could have picked, Gold, Silver, Bronze or something else but they picked tiers and then told shops what tier they were in

[adb968008]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

 

They could have picked, Gold, Silver, Bronze or something else but they picked tiers and then told shops what tier they were in

Plastic, Diecast and Dublo ?

[JSpencer]

7 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Is there kind of a sick joke in all this, given the idea came from Hornby right in the middle of the pandemic.

 

A tier system with Tier 1 being the best and Tier 3 being the most restrictive - almost like the actual tier systems applied.

 

They could have picked, Gold, Silver, Bronze or something else but they picked tiers and then told shops what tier they were in

 

Expect daily TV updates "We are now in phase...  46. If you must run a 1950s wagon with a class 66 then run a 1950s wagon with a class 66 other please don't run a 1950s wagon with a class 66.... A cluster of model shops has appeared in.... "

Edited May 25, 2021 by JSpencer

[adb968008]

I think the most important question still wasn't  answered.

 

As a customer...

 

how do I know that the retailer to whom I make a pre-order with, will actually be able to honour it  ?

...

 

I just phoned my preferred retailer, and he proudly confirmed he was Tier 3 (never any doubt really and I knew this weeks ago) but...

 

Is that a now important question I need to ask of any retailer, to be able to make a pre -order in some sense of hope / reliability to actually getting it ?

How about jo public who doesn't know to ask  before hand.. afterall if the shop is Tier 3 but doesnt deliver, they still are “a Hornby shop” and it will still be Hornby that gets thrown under the bus.

Edited May 25, 2021 by adb968008

[darrel]

So Hornby are saying that they can't keep up with demand. The sensible thing is to reduce the number of new models so you can make more of the new models you are going to make. Nope not going to do that.

Instead  they are not going to supply their largest retail customers and annoy their end customers. 

Try going on Dragons Den with that business plan and see how you get on. 

[The Stationmaster]

19 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Isn't there another tv show coming or did I confuse it with something else ?

 

one assumes if the brand is being raised to high street level, that the marketing will need to be up-focussed to match it.

 

maybe were looking at it the wrong way...

if Hornbys “going big”, it maybe that their relevance to us modellers wanes, but their company profile simply takes them in a different direction to bigger / better markets.. you cant hold it against them for doing it, if thats what they think will work...

 

I cant think of any big UK toy companies, most are overseas owned, so if Hornby becomes a British high street toy brand, good on them, the country needs more of it.. theres plenty of other manufacturers serving our needs, and Hornbys name has potential much greater than just trains. Maybe its just evolution and advancing times.

 

 

 

 

On the other hand maybe we're not the only ones looking at it in the wrong way    Hornby has a long standing problem in that as far as its model railway arm is concerned it is trying to service a multitude of markets varying from hi-fi (aimed at enthusiasts and collectors) right down to 'play train' type things and various shades of presentation, detail, finish, and cost, between the two extremes.   We don't know, and probably couldn't even accurately guess, what level of profit it makes in various parts of those markets and at times even it doesn't seem very clear on which market it wants to develop or build on.

 

If it is to continue to serve all these markets - which I think it could although perhaps it needs to rationalise how it does it - then surely at present it needs to concentrate on maximum exposure to end customers in the most profitable areas via the outlets which serve those end customers?  So how does the Tier system fit with that - and if it does are they sending a message about what they see as the most profitable market areas?

[Legend]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I think the most important question still wasn't  answered.

 

As a customer...

 

how do I know that the retailer to whom I make a pre-order with, will actually be able to honour it  ?

...

 

I just phoned my preferred retailer, and he proudly confirmed he was Tier 3 (never any doubt really and I knew this weeks ago) but...

 

Is that a now important question I need to ask of any retailer, to be able to make a pre -order in some sense of hope / reliability to actually getting it ?

How about jo public who doesn't know to ask  before hand.. afterall if the shop is Tier 3 but doesnt deliver, they still are “a Hornby shop” and it will still be Hornby that gets thrown under the bus.

 

Like everything else about this , not fully thought out I suspect

 

I doubt Hornby wanted this made public  but now it is , might we see Tier 1 appear in certain retailers websites , adverts in model trade .  But do we know that its permanent . Maybe they are Tier 1 when you place preorder but 18months down the line they drop a Tier and have their allocation cut . 

 

The whole thing is a mess 

 

Sort out your manufacturing and supply everyone thats placed an order and received a confirmation. That would certainly help the financial position .  Imagine selling more stuff .....wow 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

4 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Like everything else about this , not fully thought out I suspect

 

I doubt Hornby wanted this made public  but now it is , might we see Tier 1 appear in certain retailers websites , adverts in model trade .  But do we know that its permanent . Maybe they are Tier 1 when you place preorder but 18months down the line they drop a Tier and have their allocation cut . 

 

The whole thing is a mess 

 

Sort out your manufacturing and supply everyone thats placed an order and received a confirmation. That would certainly help the financial position .  Imagine selling more stuff .....wow 

 

 

I thought they had 'sorted out their manufacturing and supply hence the following in their Trading Statement on 13 April referring - you will see - to Q4 2020/21

 

[Ian Hargrave]

20 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Hornby are very nicely clearing a space in the market for competitors to step in...

 

If you want to sell exclusively online, if some of your products are deemed to compete with Hornby, if you don't want to sell Airfix and other non-railway gubbins, if you can't afford snazzy retail premises, if you don't want to be under the control of the authoritarian regime, whose products do you sell? You need a new supplier.

 

This could be the catalyst that forces people like Rails, Hattons and Dapol to form an even closer alliance and really take Hornby on at manufacturing. No need to hold back any more.

 

And isn’t this the elephant in the room....competition that is too close for comfort,as perceived by Hornby  ? An attitude that in many ways could be construed as without foundation. What, if that is the case,have they to fear ? Why display such fragility ?  Elsewhere on this thread we have a post quoting HO manufacturers duplicating a Siemens Vectron  X 4..some made in China,some in Vietnam and some in Belgium. All the face of it in happy coexistence..Supply problems with Hornby  IMHO are at the root of this but really,having read the reply and some acutely perceptive comment here I’m still baffled by the response and Mother Hornby’s nanny state edicts .And yes where on earth does the mighty Amazon flow into this muddy stream ?

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

It would seem that Hornby have never heard of Accurascale/SLW/Revolution etc. Whilst Hornby are floundering trying to find a direction to head in, they are leaving nice gaps for others, and the others don't impose restrictions on their outlets, which is great for modellers.

 

Mike.

[Legend]

1 minute ago, The Stationmaster said:

I thought they had 'sorted out their manufacturing and supply hence the following in their Trading Statement on 13 April referring - you will see - to Q4 2020/21

 

 

Yep it certainly alluded to that . Wonder why they cant fulfill all their orders then ?

 

A lot is also being made of increased demand due to Covid  but I really wonder if they shouldn't have performed better in this . It looks like they've got lots of orders (or they had)just not enough capacity to make them.   Wonder who plans capacity and develops range launch to fill it . Clearly somethings gone wrong looks like they are massively oversold . 

[spikey]

3 hours ago, Fireline said:

Am I the only one that delights in those poorly laid out shops, with items all over the place, that invariably yield the gems you've been looking for for ages, but never been able to get?

No.  But there's probably at least as many folk who avoid such places like the plague.

[Dunsignalling]

Hornby clearly think it's a good idea to have Hatton's outside the tent p155ing in rather than the reverse.

 

Time will tell how smart that is, but Hatton's will inevitably need to develop their business in a way that reflects Hornby's attitude. For them, any long-term relationship with Margate is clearly tenuous and unreliable. 

 

They will be wise to shift the proportion of their turnover that Hornby represents to other suppliers and direct commissioning with Chinese factories as rapidly as possible.  

 

It's fortunate that Hornby is now so well-run that they'll never again need to find a retailer with the ability and inclination to absorb half a million quids-worth of unsold stock.... 

 

John

Edited May 25, 2021 by Dunsignalling