Hornby model shop Tiers system

[Downer]

Since a guaranteed successful pre-order seems to depend on the vendor’s tier status, isn’t there a moral obligation on Hornby to publicly announce which businesses are in which of their tiers?

[Oldddudders]

1 minute ago, Downer said:

Since a guaranteed successful pre-order seems to depend on the vendor’s tier status, isn’t there a moral obligation on Hornby to publicly announce which businesses are in which of their tiers?

Thus throwing the others under a bus as far as Hornby pre-orders are concerned.......

[Phil Parker]

56 minutes ago, Hroth said:

I wonder how long this post will last...

Why? Are you asking to be moderated?

 

If that's the equivalent of shouting "Oh look at me! I've been a bad boy! Punish me!" then you need to re-assess your life choices. And take a bath in Dettol.

[Downer]

4 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Thus throwing the others under a bus as far as Hornby pre-orders are concerned.......

Thus exposing the idiocy of the whole scheme, and perhaps leading to its abandonment.

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

It's rapidly becoming clear that there is no logical pattern to any of what Hornby are currently doing, or are failing to do, as the case may be.....

 

John

Talk about looking through the wrong end of the telescope. There is a logic to it, which includes a load of factors neither you nor I will be aware of, such as turnover, total order volumes, etc. 
I think Hornby and our retail friends on this forum have been as open as they can be but you are not going to get the full commercial details that result in the relevant tier allocations. It doesn't mean that they don't exist. 

[Trains4U]

10 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Gareth, do you feel confident that you can order enough to fulfil all pre orders though with that info, or too early to say in this latest development? That was the missing assurance I noted from the statement. 
What worries me the most at present is the lack of confidence in two smaller shops being able to supply certain popular items. I respect the honesty that they told me that was a risk. 

in all honesty, I don’t know.

Under current circumstances, I’m not sure I can guarantee anything as we have been subjected to some allocation reductions.

 

I know I’m unlikely to be allowed any more of the popular items than I already have on order.

[woodenhead]

14 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

“don't think anyone can make such an assurance, what exists today may not exist tomorrow, next week or next year - ask Hattons.

 

You have to go on your gut feel I think and hope it comes good.”

 

That’s why I’m asking someone in the business rather than Rmweb opinion though  

I think Hattons took all those pre-orders in good faith and with it a lot of income for Hornby, then lost the lot despite apparently being in the good books in January.

 

I am sure Trains4U will say they are good to order from, as would Kernow and many others, today I have no doubt that will be the case, but if next week Hornby have another dawning realisation that volumes are not going to be met from China they may yet make more cuts to retailer orders.

 

There is no such thing as a sure thing when it comes to pre-ordering.

 

Birth, death and taxes are the only guaranteed things in life.  (really really wanted to right taxis just then  )

[LaGrange]

34 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

Sales volume will be one of the factors in determining tier levels along with the others listed (this much was hinted at in the original communication in January)

 

If Retailer sales volumes were plotted on a graph, the pattern would almost certainly have a hockey-stick shape, with lots of similar sized retailers, ramping up quickly to the biggest with some serious volumes 

 

We are probably somewhere on the lower half of the sharply upturning curve,  bigger than perhaps 80% of the other retailers out there, but still miles behind the biggest retailers who are in turn a good 20 x or more bigger than us.

 

 

And for the avoidance of doubt, T1 retailers do exist.   We are one of them (and we are by no means one of the biggest out there)

 

 

 

I guess a HAA and CDA isn’t a core Hornby model? 

[Ian Hargrave]

48 minutes ago, Kris said:

Possibly Hornby don't see these commissions as competing products as they are generally more niche items with a more limited potential sales. I suspect that should Kernow or any other shop commission a loco that is already in the Hornby catalogue, say an HST, Flying Scotsman or maybe even a class 66 they will very rapidly find themselves on the tier 3 naughty step. 

Chris Trerise is far too astute for that but the further we go in this we’re really down to splitting hairs and complexity. And the early stage with this is weaponising the new “system “ to damage Hattons somehow or other identifiable as a threat to profit due to their production of the Class 66 which given the respective qualities of each model as “eny skoolboy no” is ludicrous. So now it’s open season for Hornby arbitrarily to cherry pick each perceived threat ? 

 

       As someone once exclaimed “What a way to run a railway “

[Trains4U]

I’ll also stress that Hornby did say that T2 retailers should still get most , if not all of what they order, though I suspect advice will be provided on how many are available to each retailer where product is scarce.  I’m also hopeful that in future the confirmations will be more concrete, giving retailers confidence in how many models they can offer for preorder.

 

I’m not suddenly going out and ordering 500 of everything, it’s not how we work and Hornby wouldn’t allow it anyway.   

[andyman7]

1 minute ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Sorry I don't think you got my point. Of course I don't expect a modern part to fit an old loco, it is a bit like a part off a Ford Focus fitting an Anglia. No my point was that the part fits, I did my homework on that but there are 4 different variants of the same thing. It is a bit like Ford redesigning the oil filter for every car even though a lot of them carry the same engine. As to the locos, even when they state they are "retooled" you would be surprised as to how close they are to the old model in many cases. The way you describe production, it is as if they make every part as they go along, I doubt it that wouldn't be very efficient.

I did get your point, I disassemble enough of these models to know just how much variation there is, the point is that 'they' is not Hornby, it is one of a range of contract manufacturers who will be carrying out other manufacturing tasks alongside the Hornby work. If the supplier (for their own reasons) uses a different configuration of part for a different version of the same model, provided that they deliver on price and specification there is no loss of efficiency for Hornby that it has changed. 

[RichardT]

6 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Railway modellers are not going to be heading off to John Lewes for their purchases

Phil - my apologies for picking you up on this. I ignored it at first but now after several posts this spelling error is becoming the visual equivalent of nails on a blackboard. It’s John LEWIS, not Lewes!

 

Back OT: John Lewis in Edinburgh is very close to Harburn Hobbies - a proper, long established model railway & Hornby retailer.  I hope this new Hornby/JLP link up helps rather than harms Harburn.

 

RT

[Trains4U]

9 minutes ago, LaGrange said:

 

I guess a HAA and CDA isn’t a core Hornby model? 

I think that’s the second time you’ve pushed that button...

 

Those models are commissioned from a manufacturer.  We are not the manufacturer, we have no financial or other interest in the manufacturer and we do not own the tools.

 

We have a degree of (time limited) exclusivity over some of the production run.

 

we have exclusivity on the KFA and some other forthcoming models

 

we have done it in the past with Bachmann

 

 There are lots of other retailers in the same position (Kernow, Gaugemaster, TMC, Olivias, Rails, Harburn... the list goes on)

Edited May 26, 2021 by Trains4U

[ruggedpeak]

6 minutes ago, RichardT said:

Phil - my apologies for picking you up on this. I ignored it at first but now after several posts this spelling error is becoming the visual equivalent of nails on a blackboard. It’s John LEWIS, not Lewes!

 

Back OT: John Lewis in Edinburgh is very close to Harburn Hobbies - a proper, long established model railway & Hornby retailer.  I hope this new Hornby/JLP link up helps rather than harms Harburn.

 

RT

Only if the sale of a limited range of trainsets to tourists is key to survival of their business, which I doubt.

[Ian Hargrave]

44 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

So far, none of the Kernow commissions have been in competition with Hornby products - and THAT is the salient point.

 

With Hattons we have the 'Generic' coaches, with Rails the Terrier.

 

Were Kernow to decide to go and commission their own M7 or class 31 I think they would quickly find themselves in the same position as Rails & Hattons...

 

(Note the word 'commission' - if Bachmann or Accrascale bought out a 31 simply stocking it would not be an infringement of Hornbys ' rules)

 

Locomotion are a bit different in that they only sell from their Shildon or York shops plus anything they do release tends to be piggy backed onto another retailer / Manufacturers commission - Witness their model of Boxhill (piggybacked off the Rails Terrier), or the SECR D class (piggybacked off the Rails ones), or the GN Atlantic (derived from Bachmanns model). Moreover as the retail arm of a Heritage / National Museum I expect it would be treated rather differently from ordinary model shops - a fact which Hornby did mention in their press release.

Couple of points here. The so called generic coaches......who announced these first ,Hattons or Hornby ?  And the Atlantic you’ve got the wrong way round . First produced for NRM Shildon..Mainstream model later.But Shildon is or was before Covid-19,a normal model retailer stocking mainstream stuff.

 

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

13 minutes ago, RichardT said:

Phil - my apologies for picking you up on this. I ignored it at first but now after several posts this spelling error is becoming the visual equivalent of nails on a blackboard. It’s John LEWIS, not Lewes!

 

Back OT: John Lewis in Edinburgh is very close to Harburn Hobbies - a proper, long established model railway & Hornby retailer.  I hope this new Hornby/JLP link up helps rather than harms Harburn.

 

RT

I believe that Harburn make, or have made for them, a scenic range and also commission items of rolling stock.

I wonder how they will be viewed.

Bernard

[Revolution Mike]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

 

I recall this being said when DJM launched, and we know how well that went. 

 

 

Phil, as you well know there are many new manufacturers that haven’t gone the way of DJM or LLC. That really isn’t a helpful or relevant argument. Particularly given the history of Hornby!

[Phil Parker]

8 minutes ago, red death said:

Phil, as you well know there are many new manufacturers that haven’t gone the way of DJM or LLC. That really isn’t a helpful or relevant argument. Particularly given the history of Hornby!

 

But none so widely touted on here as shaking up the industry and someone the more established brands should be learning from.

 

My point is that we will never get a running commentary from any business, so we will no more know exactly what is going on at Hornby as we knew what was going through DJ's head. Every business is different.

[Trains4U]

42 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

in all honesty, I don’t know.

Under current circumstances, I’m not sure I can guarantee anything as we have been subjected to some allocation reductions.

 

I know I’m unlikely to be allowed any more of the popular items than I already have on order.

Having typed the above, I’ve just checked my emails to find an order amendment from Hornby

(2 of the Beatles vans reduced)

 

sigh...

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

Having typed the above, I’ve just checked my emails to find an order amendment from Hornby

(2 of the Beatles vans reduced)

 

sigh...

Start dusting 

[Steamport Southport]

HELP!

 

Although I did read it originally as Beatties rather than Beatles.

[montyburns56]

On 25/05/2021 at 10:21, Michael Hodgson said:

Both are subjective assessments.  And somebody who is usually very helpful might get out of bed on the wrong side sometimes.

 

"Tidy" in a manufacturer's eyes probably means our products prominently on display and everybody else's products shoved away in a heap in the far corner, if not hidden under the counter.

 

They'll allow you to sell Heljan, Bachmann etc. but only if you sell them in a brown paper bag.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Kris said:

Possibly Hornby don't see these commissions as competing products as they are generally more niche items with a more limited potential sales. I suspect that should Kernow or any other shop commission a loco that is already in the Hornby catalogue, say an HST, Flying Scotsman or maybe even a class 66 they will very rapidly find themselves on the tier 3 naughty step. 

J94 isnt a competitor to Hornby, the ex-DJ J94 might be hiding in an EFE box, available nationwide, but it says who now owns it underneath ?

 

Theres a few holes in the story we are fed obviously theres a reason that isn't known to us, so be it, if Dominic Cummins had excuses for moving through tiers, so can others.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by adb968008

[Chris M]

Just wondering if anyone knows of any other changes of Hornby policy? For instance. Will they still have a loose collaboration with the magazine that shares their name? Will they still have a nice stand at a number of exhibitions? Are they going to concentrate their business on toys rather than models in future? 

[Phil Parker]

4 minutes ago, Chris M said:

Just wondering if anyone knows of any other changes of Hornby policy? For instance. Will they still have a loose collaboration with the magazine that shares their name? Will they still have a nice stand at a number of exhibitions? Are they going to concentrate their business on toys rather than models in future? 

 

They have already said that they won't be attending shows this year due to Covid. As far as we know, everything else stays the same.