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Hornby model shop Tiers system


Phil Parker
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4 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

All things are relative - how many millions of tins of Heinz bean are made each your, or boxes of surf washing powder, etc.

 

Making a million or so pies each doesn't come close to the power of big brand owners - just look at how much Unilever owns! https://www.unilever.co.uk/brands/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't forget that many "named" brand suppliers also produce own-brand Tesco products. Having worked as a dot-com driver for a short while, thus speaking to the delivery truckers in the canteen, and also having a daughter working for them who talks to the suppliers, I am aware this is true.

 

Stewart

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27 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

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After all the forensic examination of Hornby's position on "tiers", can someone explain why Hornby supply Amazon ?

For more +£€$¥.

 

but i’m sure the marketing team will say its to support grassroots delivery drivers. Those drivers are in Tiers..

 

Tier 1 drivers have a clean white van, with parcels stacked nicely, and will speak english and offer a smile.

 

Tier 2 Drivers also have a clean white van, invariably (v2 Usually) they will  stack parcels neatly, but occasionally fall over if turning the corner too fast. But more importantly they might deliver your parcel no matter what condition it arrives.

 

Tier 3 drivers drive old smokies, often deliver parcels for other websites too. They will throw parcels over your gate, or on the roof but again most importantly they might deliver, somewhere, sometime, but being tier 3 it might get lost.

 

my grassroots delivery driver doesnt have a van, he comes on foot. He delivers for everybody and delivers everything. He is Tier 1, but am not sure why... but I hope he keeps coming as ive ordered quite a lot.

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11 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

After all the forensic examination of Hornby's position on "tiers", can someone explain why Hornby supply Amazon ?

 

No shop, no customer personal interface, no ability to visit.

 

Strange.

 

.

 

They also supply Argos and other non railway retailers and have done for years. Amazon is a massive global marketplace - first stop for many people nowadays. I've always wondered why more of our retailers aren't represented on it. 

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1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

Gareth, do you feel confident that you can order enough to fulfil all pre orders though with that info, or too early to say in this latest development? That was the missing assurance I noted from the statement. 
What worries me the most at present is the lack of confidence in two smaller shops being able to supply certain popular items. I respect the honesty that they told me that was a risk. 

But to be honest what has changed?  I, and my local retailer, have been dumped on by Hornby short supply failing to meet shop orders in the past - while at the same time seeing traders who operated from their sitting rooms or garden sheds selling at shows the product my retailer could not get in order to satisfy my pre-order.  Overall Hornby 'allocation' or 'rationing' or call it what you will is not new and whatever caused it in the past might still be causing it now - i.e they sold more than they'd ordered from the factory.?  All they've done now is shut the stable door after the horse had got well away and replaced whim, or whatever, in deciding 'allocation' with the tier system (which at least creates some certainty).  I know one of my 'local' retailers is in Tier 1 and i can guess that the other might not be because of the confusion between 'online sales' and mail order but it won't make any difference to which of them I buy from (I usually split my r-t-r buying fairly evenly between them).

 

But none of that - be it tiers or whim - does not appear to be addressing the core problem.  Why does 'allocation' take place and I can think of only one logical explanation - Hornby sold (in terms of taking orders from retailers) more of a particular product that it had ordered (or, unlikely I suspect, it subsequently ordered from the factory).  Or it diverted product ordered by retailers to sale by other routes, or a combination of these factors.  If a factory short supplies against what Hornby ordered then commercially all they need do is say so - but they haven't.  If product is delayed they can say so - and sometimes they do.  

 

But what is it about their business process that causes them to not be able to meet genuine orders which have been placed by retailers?  Is there actually any other model railway manufacturer in the UK market place where this happens (although we do hear when some have sold out but that is a different thing).   And does Hornby's pattern of not meeting orders in turn lead to their Year 2 situation where they have failed to satisfy the market so tend to order even more of the same and then find it doesn't sell and clogs the warehouse?

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For years people have complained about the death of the small dedicated model shop. They bemoan the rise of the nasty box shifters. Hornby announce that they are going to give good local shops a higher priority than said box shifters and all hell breaks loose. Personally I have to use the internet as there is no shop selling UK outline within 500 miles or more. The last two times I visited a model shop in England, they were untidy, dingy, in need of a clean... I spent hours there and didn't want leave. I got great service. But I have no idea which tier they would be in.

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2 hours ago, Vistisen said:

The last two times I visited a model shop in England, they were untidy, dingy, in need of a clean... I spent hours there and didn't want leave. I got great service. But I have no idea which tier they would be in.

I could use the same paragraph to describe British hotels.

That star rating of them is equally a mystery.

 

its a British thing, invent it, categorise it, then make the description so long and opaque that your more confused than when you started. That way it needs an industry analyst to roll up and explain it to the audience... which costs money, puts the price up and delays it.

Regardless what the mess looks like on the inside, put a good marketing spin on it and a smily face on the outside... any questions, just say theres a price rise coming, so be quick.

 

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1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

I could use the same paragraph to describe British hotels.

That star rating of them is equally a mystery.

 

Hotel star ratings are based upon facilities offered - night porterage, room service, that sort of thing, not size of rooms or cleanliness of linen etc. 

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16 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

But to be honest what has changed?  I, and my local retailer, have been dumped on by Hornby short supply failing to meet shop orders in the past - while at the same time seeing traders who operated from their sitting rooms or garden sheds selling at shows the product my retailer could not get in order to satisfy my pre-order.  Overall Hornby 'allocation' or 'rationing' or call it what you will is not new and whatever caused it in the past might still be causing it now - i.e they sold more than they'd ordered from the factory.?  All they've done now is shut the stable door after the horse had got well away and replaced whim, or whatever, in deciding 'allocation' with the tier system (which at least creates some certainty).  I know one of my 'local' retailers is in Tier 1 and i can guess that the other might not be because of the confusion between 'online sales' and mail order but it won't make any difference to which of them I buy from (I usually split my r-t-r buying fairly evenly between them).

 

But none of that - be it tiers or whim - does not appear to be addressing the core problem.  Why does 'allocation' take place and I can think of only one logical explanation - Hornby sold (in terms of taking orders from retailers) more of a particular product that it had ordered (or, unlikely I suspect, it subsequently ordered from the factory).  Or it diverted product ordered by retailers to sale by other routes, or a combination of these factors.  If a factory short supplies against what Hornby ordered then commercially all they need do is say so - but they haven't.  If product is delayed they can say so - and sometimes they do.  

 

But what is it about their business process that causes them to not be able to meet genuine orders which have been placed by retailers?  Is there actually any other model railway manufacturer in the UK market place where this happens (although we do hear when some have sold out but that is a different thing).   And does Hornby's pattern of not meeting orders in turn lead to their Year 2 situation where they have failed to satisfy the market so tend to order even more of the same and then find it doesn't sell and clogs the warehouse?

 

Nobody has mentioned QC issues yet.

 

What happens if you order 2000 locos to match the 2000 that have been pre-ordered. But when they get here, 100 turn out not to be of saleable quality?

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55 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

You still didn't get it, the Coronation, Princess and Scot use exactly the same tender bottom that is what I am saying, but when you buy it as spares it comes in at least 4 different part numbers. That means you have to source 4 part numbers, allocate 4 different storage locations, but it is further complicated by sometimes it comes with screws, sometimes with pickups. That will only occur with the spare parts, in production it will be bins of everything. Fundamentally it is the same part. We already know many of them use the same motor. I would imagine most of the parts are sourced by another supplier, I gather that is how it worked at Margate. When Hornby design a new loco they will try and carry over as many existing parts as they can, it cuts costs. We used to do the same in car design.

We are talking at cross purposes here. I do get it. It is mad if you are trying to identify spares. But the way they work now with their supply chain it is easier to manage the coding of spares to an individual product even if it is the same part. It is inefficient for us, but more efficient for them and their suppliers, and the reality is that only a tiny number of us are concerned with spares - most of their customers never interface with that side of things.  

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19 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Hotel star ratings are based upon facilities offered - night porterage, room service, that sort of thing, not size of rooms or cleanliness of linen etc. 

ETB ratings take those into consideration as well. (Former Guest House owner!)

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1 hour ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

After all the forensic examination of Hornby's position on "tiers", can someone explain why Hornby supply Amazon ?

 

No shop, no customer personal interface, no ability to visit.

 

Strange.

 

.

Uh - They dont -- its their own store on an Amazon storefront.. Other shops and retailers do the same such as Cheltenham/Peter Spares etc

 

And yes - they sell the same item at different prices to there own website sometimes using the store front Algorithm to boost sales (probably on items that are not selling well & which can result in the odd bargain) or throw the odd item in as a weekend special..

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23 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Hotel star ratings are based upon facilities offered - night porterage, room service, that sort of thing, not size of rooms or cleanliness of linen etc. 


What a welcome break of light relief ! How did we get so gloriously off topic ? Answer here is to use The Good Hotel Guide of course. Now where were we with Amazon Hornby delivery ?

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19 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Nobody has mentioned QC issues yet.

 

What happens if you order 2000 locos to match the 2000 that have been pre-ordered. But when they get here, 100 turn out not to be of saleable quality?

 

I think this was explained a few pages back. If you want 2000, you order 2100. If there are less than 100 faulty models, those are cascaded to Tier 3. 

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54 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

They also supply Argos and other non railway retailers and have done for years. Amazon is a massive global marketplace - first stop for many people nowadays. I've always wondered why more of our retailers aren't represented on it. 

Only two spring to mind....Jadlam and Gaugemaster....but I think mainly in HO  .Any advance on that ?

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2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Except it isn't the same. The brands you quoted do not offer a complete range. Whether it's important that anyone offers a complete range is a different discussion, the fact is that those manufacturers operate a different business model to Hornby, despite what you said.


While not "complete range", Rapido have made: track, scenic elements, paint, locos (steam, Diesel & Electric), passenger stock (including DMU's), freight stock,  DCC decoders- basically, more than say was ever offered in TT.  The only thing Rapido has not made is a control system, and that's because they are quite happy with NCE's products...

I wouldn't consider Rapido a "small" manufacturer any more...

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1 hour ago, cbrooks122000 said:

You still didn't get it, the Coronation, Princess and Scot use exactly the same tender bottom that is what I am saying, but when you buy it as spares it comes in at least 4 different part numbers. That means you have to source 4 part numbers, allocate 4 different storage locations, but it is further complicated by sometimes it comes with screws, sometimes with pickups. That will only occur with the spare parts, in production it will be bins of everything. Fundamentally it is the same part. We already know many of them use the same motor. I would imagine most of the parts are sourced by another supplier, I gather that is how it worked at Margate. When Hornby design a new loco they will try and carry over as many existing parts as they can, it cuts costs. We used to do the same in car design.

 

Spare parts are supplied by striping returns / the few locos Hornby keep back for warranty purposes purpose or by the factory adding them on to the order for a particular model. In general Hornby to not make / commission spares as a stand alone order.

 

Given each loco is regarded as a single project and different locos are made in different factories the fact two tender bases are the same is irreverent. Two separate models made in two separate factories = two part numbers.

 

 

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1 minute ago, peach james said:

While not "complete range",

 

So, as I said, not a complete range. 

 

1 minute ago, peach james said:

I Wouldn't consider Rapido a "small" manufacturer any more...

 

No one said they were. 

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8 minutes ago, peach james said:


While not "complete range", Rapido have made: track, scenic elements, paint, locos (steam, Diesel & Electric), passenger stock (including DMU's), freight stock,  DCC decoders- basically, more than say was ever offered in TT.  The only thing Rapido has not made is a control system, and that's because they are quite happy with NCE's products...

I wouldn't consider Rapido a "small" manufacturer any more...

 

Yes but how much of that is suitable for a UK layout?

 

While there is some crossover in the scenic side, a set of Canadian carriages isn't going to be a lot of use to someone modelling 1950s British Railways is it?

 

Thus I would say that at this stage Rapido UK still counts as a small manufacturer - though as with other recent entrants they are expanding of course.

 

 

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Something that I don't think has been highlighted is the situation if those retailers who do not have a physical shop.

 

Previously, they were able to source Hornby stock from AB Gee, a toy wholesaler. Last year a Hornby Rep told me that their relationship was due to change, and people would have to order direct. I took that with a pinch of salt (well, he would say that wouldn't he?)

 

Well, it seems to have happened. AB Gee no longer show stocks of Hornby, (although they do of Airfix, Humbrol and Corgi) and Tier/Band 3 retailers seem to include those without a physical shop.

 

So presumably Hornby has changed its policy about supplying non-physical retailers - and supplying Amazon falls into that category. 

 

The big questions for me are what is the practical difference between Bands 1 and 2, and if you are not fussed about making pre-orders is there any point in having physical premises if you can purchase from Hornby on the same terms (margins etc)  as Band 2 or 1?

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1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Hotel star ratings are based upon facilities offered - night porterage, room service, that sort of thing, not size of rooms or cleanliness of linen etc. 

So you're saying a 5* hotel can get away with using dirty sheets - I don't think so

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Perhaps being long enough ex-pat, and having moved here when I was 4, my expectation was different when I walked into John's Photo & Hobby, or Georges Trains, or Southern, or Hobbytime, or BC Shaver, or mail ordered from Model Railway Imports, The British Connection, Britannia, or the guys in the North Shore (who had Bachmann for a while).  I never expected that ONE supplier would have everything I wanted, and that things like grass flock would come from Woodland Scenics, my controller from MRC (Tech 2, 2400), my electrical from Atlas, track from Atlas (or other suppliers if money was tight...), cab control switches bought from Radio Shack, Peco rail joiners & tacks, (& eventually track, ~1989 or so), and trains from Hornby, Bachmann, Dapol, Lima, Airfix (GMR), Parkside-Dundas, Comet & a wide range of other suppliers.

I understand that by UK standards, it's a bit of a shock that Rapido don't make a power pack- but by North American standards, it's normal.  Prior to DCC being the answer, the answer for more serious modeling power supply was either homebrewed (for O gauge/ect), or MRC Tech 2 of some sort.  The North American market had a much larger division between "toy trains" (sold by Sears, Eatons, Consumer Distributing, ect... and hobby stores), and "Model Trains", sold by specific hobby stores, I think in a large part because O gauge had been the scale of choice into the 60's (with 0-27 being most common...).     Lionel is NOT a scale model .  You're not buying a brass loco at Sears... they were two completely different worlds.  





"Thus I would say that at this stage Rapido UK still counts as a small manufacturer"

Should I call Hornby a small manufacturer because perhaps my local store has 1 red box, and 2 Bachmann Branchlines boxes?    That the nearest retailer with on the shelf stock is 5.5 hrs away from me ?  The answer is no - you'd not think that either Bachmann Branchlines or Hornby are "small" manufacturers, even though their availability or appropriateness might be limited.  I don't think you're going to run The Canadian (7 coach styles modeled, in 3 liveries...) with either of it's 2 loco designs (F40PH and FP7A's) on a UK N gauge layout tomorrow either...

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1 minute ago, Graham108 said:

So you're saying a 5* hotel can get away with using dirty sheets - I don't think so


No he’s not saying that.Simply that hotel grading is based on facilities on offer but not on quality of such.Simply that.

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You have to wonder what will happen when the Exhibition circuit starts up again fully . All these trade stands with very little Hornby.
 

I dare say they could do click and collect.

 

Regards Arran 

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