Hornby model shop Tiers system

[phil-b259]

19 minutes ago, peach james said:

Should I call Hornby a small manufacturer because perhaps my local store has 1 red box, and 2 Bachmann Branchlines boxes?    That the nearest retailer with on the shelf stock is 5.5 hrs away from me ?  The answer is no - you'd not think that either Bachmann Branchlines or Hornby are "small" manufacturers, even though their availability or appropriateness might be limited.  I don't think you're going to run The Canadian (7 coach styles modeled, in 3 liveries...) with either of it's 2 loco designs (F40PH and FP7A's) on a UK N gauge layout tomorrow either...

 

No... because the Hornby group doesn't produce anything for the US modeller and thus doesn't count as a manufacturer at all for the purposes of the American modelling scene.

 

Equally from Hornbys perspective they couldn't care less about Rapidos US / Canadian operation - what interests Hornby is the newly formed UK offshoot and beating the big H to the Titfield rights will have not gone down well at Margate.

 

Similarly Markin doesn't count as a large manufacture with respect to the British Railway scene as they do not cater for British modellers.

 

Where you happen to live makes no difference - if you model British outline then Hornby is a large manufacturer full stop.

 

Rapido has long been a large manufacturer of Canadian / American outline stuff and that is unaffected whether you live in the UK or the US.

 

Rapidos UK offerings so far have been relative small - extremely good products of course so no criticism implied. In time, as their range and number of UK outline products increase then their position on the size rankings with respect to UK RTR will go up.

 

It can admittedly get a bit confusing when you talk about mainland Europe though as the Hornby Group own Jeouf for example. So although Hornby (as we know it in the UK) doesn't count as a manufacturer with respect to the French scene, the parent group as it were is, through Jeouf, is a large manufacturer as regards French RTR.

 

[Cyberspice]

On 25/05/2021 at 12:32, APOLLO said:

Tier One - Visit and buy from your local model shop (if your lucky enough to have one nearby)

I’ve tried this and either they don’t have what I want in stock, or completely ignore because I’m not male so I’ve given up.

[Chris M]

41 minutes ago, arran said:

You have to wonder what will happen when the Exhibition circuit starts up again fully . All these trade stands with very little Hornby.
 

I dare say they could do click and collect.

 

Regards Arran 

I know at least one trade exhibitor is very keen for exhibitions to start. The same guy also says how hard it is to get stock just for his shop and online orders. There is a danger that some trade stands will be a bit thin on stock when exhibitions restart.

 

having said that,  I’m so looking forward to going to an exhibition again. I just hope the new variant doesn’t put the kibosh on it.

[Legend]

42 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

So what is wrong with it, rather than it being a bit expensive. I mean it is basically a carriage without any seating.

Excessive light bleed . Really you can see through the plastic on both Inter City and Network Rail versions . Have a look on YouTube , you will quickly see the issue . People say it can be resolved by painting the interior black, but at £79 this looks more like a toy than a model 

[Legend]

1 hour ago, arran said:

You have to wonder what will happen when the Exhibition circuit starts up again fully . All these trade stands with very little Hornby.
 

I dare say they could do click and collect.

 

Regards Arran 

From memory aren’t most of the trade stands shops eg Cheltenham Model Centre , quite big on the Scottish Circuit .  Of course it probably means they won’t have any of the latest releases 

[andyman7]

3 minutes ago, Legend said:

Excessive light bleed . Really you can see through the plastic on both Inter City and Network Rail versions . Have a look on YouTube , you will quickly see the issue . People say it can be resolved by painting the interior black, but at £79 this looks more like a toy than a model 

There is some light bleed which can be easily addressed. It's certainly not a toy. I got mine from model shop with high street premises for £64 with no preordering. Saw it was in stock. Went in. Bought it.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

No he’s not saying that.Simply that hotel grading is based on facilities on offer but not on quality of such.Simply that.

Unless you want an ETB rating as I posted a few back

Quality is assessed as part of your rating.

[Cyberspice]

7 minutes ago, Legend said:

but at £79 this looks more like a toy than a model 

At £79 it is more expensive than the Bachmann DBSO which is a lovely model, with better DCC control and no light bleed.

[Cyberspice]

4 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

There is some light bleed which can be easily addressed.

You shouldn’t need to address it. 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, JohnR said:

 

So presumably Hornby has changed its policy about supplying non-physical retailers - and supplying Amazon falls into that category. 

 

 

Are Hornby supplying Amazon?

Or are Amazon providing a shop front for Hornby?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/stores/Hornby/page/42AC0C70-1D10-41C5-99F4-64CEA8B4928A?ref_=ast_bln

 

[Andy Hayter]

1 hour ago, JohnR said:

 

The big questions for me are what is the practical difference between Bands 1 and 2, and if you are not fussed about making pre-orders is there any point in having physical premises if you can purchase from Hornby on the same terms (margins etc)  as Band 2 or 1?

 

From about 35 years ago the company I worked for used a very similar customer categorisation system (no fancy words like tiers back then).  We had, A, B and C customers.  This was an entirely different business and nothing to do with retail.  From Phil's earlier post however it would seem to have been similarly structured with the majority of customers in the middle band.

 

What is the difference between A and B customers?  Most of the time you would hope almost none.  I say almost only because the reps were supposed to spend more time with the A customers and in our industry this was as much about getting information about what was happening in their markets, what new innovations were on the horizon etc as it was about selling the next lorry load of product.  

 

However if for some reason the brown and smelly hit the fan, then you had an instant action plan about who would and who would not get supplied.  It is a good business practice to do this since believe me it takes months to categorise your customers.  The reps will have clear views on which customers they think are key and strategic and that may not always gel with the financials, level of market feedback etc..  By having the categorisation in advance you are prepared for almost any disaster.

 

The A customers would be the technological leaders (for that today you might read internet active and savvy) would provide useful market feedback and were reliable steady purchasers and payers.  

The B customers - the bread and butter customers - were the backbone of the business.  They were not second class citizens but if push came to push you might have to restrict supply.  While not technological leaders they were still well up in the game.

C customers you could step in and out of as required - sales price might often be the lever to get a sale.

[RichardT]

10 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Are Hornby supplying Amazon?

Or are Amazon providing a shop front for Hornby?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/stores/Hornby/page/42AC0C70-1D10-41C5-99F4-64CEA8B4928A?ref_=ast_bln

FWIW I clicked the link to the Hornby Store on Amazon, clicked on “Flying Scotsman”, and the selling page said “dispatched from and sold by Amazon”. To my simple mind that’s Hornby supplying Amazon, not using them as a shop front.

 

RT

[JeremyC]

4 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I believe that Harburn make, or have made for them, a scenic range and also commission items of rolling stock.

I wonder how they will be viewed.

Bernard

Harburn are my local model shop (who I try to support). They have never commissioned new items of rolling stock; all their commissions that I've seen are reliveries of existing models done for them by the original item manufacturer.

[GWR-fan]

When one places a pre-order he has an expectation that such order will be fulfilled.  Now where does he go to place his order?  If Hornby are so sure that their new tier system is the bee's knees then where is the list of tiers 1, 2 and 3 stockists?  We know it is pointless trying to pre-order from a tier 3 stockist so that leaves us finding a tier 1 or tier 2 stockist.  Given that a tier 1 stockist is most likely able to supply our order then obviously we would want to deal with them at the expense of those tier 2 stockists whom we would normally purchase our new items from.  Now where is that list of tiered Hornby stockists?    Oh,  there is no published list of graded stockists because the grading system that the manufacturer is so proud of will disadvantage those stockists who sell their product.

[phil-b259]

It can be difficult to tell the difference but basically if you see the words "Dispatched from and sold by Amazon" below the 'add to basket or 'buy now buttons' on the top right of the page then Amazon is the retailer of that product and all monies paid are retained by them. Amazon have full control to raise / lower prices and carry out promotions without any reference to the supplier (which could mean that the supplier charges a higher price than Amazon).

 

If however you see "Sold by XXXX store and Fulfilled by Amazon" that means you are NOT buying from Amazon! In such cases Amazon is basically acting as a logistics company and NOT a retailer. Amazon take on responsibility for processing payment and arranging delivery of the merchandise but do not set the price which it retails for or control any discounts, etc.

[andyman7]

12 hours ago, Cyberspice said:

You shouldn’t need to address it. 

Well no, but I struggle to get worked up that somehow Hornby should be brought down for these failings. If the product appears overpriced or does not meet your requirements don't buy it, I suppose I'm affected by having grown up in the 70s and 80s where the UK RTR market was served by a heapful of fairly woeful models. For years if you wanted a WCML DVT the RTR option was to use the Mk4 version without lights and ignore that it was actually the wrong pattern.
So when a fundamentally accurate RTR model is offered at a price and build quality I could not hope to replicate from kit buiding or whatever, I am reasonably happy that someone has actually made it and will address any minor issues myself. If it's perfect that's great, but I'll live with what's turned up.

Edited May 27, 2021 by andyman7
Spelling

[GWR-fan]

2 hours ago, JohnR said:

Something that I don't think has been highlighted is the situation if those retailers who do not have a physical shop.......................................

 

The big questions for me are what is the practical difference between Bands 1 and 2, and if you are not fussed about making pre-orders is there any point in having physical premises if you can purchase from Hornby on the same terms (margins etc)  as Band 2 or 1?

 

Tier 3 stockists can still order from Hornby,  however,  they cannot pre-order and the items they are able to order MUST be actually instock with Hornby.  Given low production volumes these days it is quite likely that pre-order quantities will account for most of a production run,  thus exactly how much stock will be available as "instock" is debatable.

[GWR-fan]

4 hours ago, cbrooks122000 said:

You still didn't get it, the Coronation, Princess and Scot use exactly the same tender bottom that is what I am saying, but when you buy it as spares it comes in at least 4 different part numbers. That means you have to source 4 part numbers, allocate 4 different storage locations, but it is further complicated by sometimes it comes with screws, sometimes with pickups. That will only occur with the spare parts, in production it will be bins of everything. Fundamentally it is the same part. We already know many of them use the same motor. I would imagine most of the parts are sourced by another supplier, I gather that is how it worked at Margate. When Hornby design a new loco they will try and carry over as many existing parts as they can, it cuts costs. We used to do the same in car design.

 

Hornby uses multiple manufacturers in multiple countries.  The logistics of the same part number for an identical part across multiple items will only work when there is one supplier.  While the part may be identical it is highly likely that the same part will be manufactured from different tooling in each factory.  A factory in say China is not going to manufacture say a tender chassis that is common to multiple locomotives and then ship that part to another country to complete the assembly of a loco in that other country.  The part will be produced inhouse and have a specific part number associated with that specific loco.   While it is logical to have identical parts with matching part numbers,  it is practically impossible.  For instance I needed a new axle mounted gear for from memory a 61XX as the gear had split.  No replacement part was available.  I did however have a replacement gearset for a "Duke of Gloucester".  I seem to recall that I used the 8F gearset to fix the prairrie 61XX.  Ideally, as the 8F gearsets were then available,  commonality of part numbers would have made it easier to source my 61XX gears,  but given the logistics of production across multiple countries with multiple suppliers,  will require a part number specific to the factory assembling the loco.

[1andrew1]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

No... because the Hornby group doesn't produce anything for the US modeller and thus doesn't count as a manufacturer at all for the purposes of the American modelling scene...[snip]

 

The Hornby Group do dabble in the US market in a very small way ,from time to time. They'll be releasing a Heisler Steam locomotive and log cars this October.  https://uk.rivarossi.com/catalogue/coming-soon?spring=true&summer=true&autumn=true&winter=true&page=1

[mallaig1983]

Does nothing to help any budding start up business.

[Steamport Southport]

5 minutes ago, 1andrew1 said:

The Hornby Group do dabble in the US market in a very small way ,from time to time. They'll be releasing a Heisler Steam locomotive and log cars this October.  https://uk.rivarossi.com/catalogue/coming-soon?spring=true&summer=true&autumn=true&winter=true&page=1

 

Didn't they also make a Big Boy or am I imagining that?

 

Not really up on the old foreign stuff. I remember they made a pretty good Royal Scot and LMS coaches, but they were the wrong scale. ISTR it was something like 3.8MM to the foot.

 

Not my video.

 

 

 

Jason

[Ighten]

1 hour ago, RichardT said:

FWIW I clicked the link to the Hornby Store on Amazon, clicked on “Flying Scotsman”, and the selling page said “dispatched from and sold by Amazon”. To my simple mind that’s Hornby supplying Amazon, not using them as a shop front.

 

RT

 

That means that Hornby have applied and been certified to allow there items into the warehouse - its still their storefront - Amazon dont employ buyers for these areas its run normally by the trader who simply has to keep stock flowing through (it will usually say more stock coming soon etc somewhere)

 

At a guess and from price watching items I would say they stock the shopfront with items they need to shift - promoting the odd thing heavily as one off specials and allowing the Amazon pricing algorithm to do its work on others.. Certain items (usually newer) just match the rrp though on there own site.

 

What's bizarre with Hornbys attempt to do this is they have created a  store front (when you click visit the Hornbystore) that takes you to a shiny storefront menu to match the website style; yet if you click locomotives - then steam- for example, it then lists only about 20% of what they actually have on Amazon (which is a reduced range in itself) 

 

If you look closely you can work out which items may be affected as even though your in the same store (Hornbystore) some items will say Dispatched from and sold by Amazon. whilst others (yet still in the same store) will say Dispatched from and sold by TrainStop. If you try to click through to Trainstops storefront it doesnt exist.. From what I remember this allows the trader more controls

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Ighten

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

Didn't they also make a Big Boy or am I imagining that?

 

Released last year

https://us.Hornby.com/products/big-boy-steam-loco-dcc-wsound-4018-hr2640

 

So I guess Hornby is both a full service manufacturer and a limited small manufacturer at the same time...

[GWR-fan]

Well,  I went to the "dark side" and purchased two railway related Hornby Skaledale buildings from Amazon UK and even though the store charges the local 10% GST,   I still came out $10.00 in front when compared to a popular tier 3 UK stockist of Hornby items.  I had previously never considered looking on Amazon for Hornby items.  

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Didn't they also make a Big Boy or am I imagining that?

 

Not really up on the old foreign stuff. I remember they made a pretty good Royal Scot and LMS coaches, but they were the wrong scale. ISTR it was something like 3.8MM to the foot.

 

Not my video.

 

 

 

Jason

But many years before Hornby acquired the brand. IIRC UK red boxes still had Tri-ang in the name when those were about.

 

They would have probably done quite well had they been the right scale, though many UK buyers would have balked at the prices.

 

John