Hornby model shop Tiers system

[spikey]

7 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

When one places a pre-order he has an expectation that such order will be fulfilled.  Now where does he go to place his order?

 

In the case of Hornby products, to Hornby.

[Joseph_Pestell]

9 hours ago, JohnR said:

Something that I don't think has been highlighted is the situation if those retailers who do not have a physical shop.

 

Previously, they were able to source Hornby stock from AB Gee, a toy wholesaler. Last year a Hornby Rep told me that their relationship was due to change, and people would have to order direct. I took that with a pinch of salt (well, he would say that wouldn't he?)

 

Well, it seems to have happened. AB Gee no longer show stocks of Hornby, (although they do of Airfix, Humbrol and Corgi) and Tier/Band 3 retailers seem to include those without a physical shop.

 

So presumably Hornby has changed its policy about supplying non-physical retailers - and supplying Amazon falls into that category. 

 

The big questions for me are what is the practical difference between Bands 1 and 2, and if you are not fussed about making pre-orders is there any point in having physical premises if you can purchase from Hornby on the same terms (margins etc)  as Band 2 or 1?

 

I was speaking with a wholesaler a few weeks ago about Corgi. He is fairly certain that Hornby is going to go direct there too.

[Joseph_Pestell]

9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Spare parts are supplied by striping returns / the few locos Hornby keep back for warranty purposes purpose or by the factory adding them on to the order for a particular model. In general Hornby to not make / commission spares as a stand alone order.

 

Given each loco is regarded as a single project and different locos are made in different factories the fact two tender bases are the same is irreverent. Two separate models made in two separate factories = two part numbers.

 

 

 

Can you imagine your local car dealership dismantling new cars to create spares?

[Joseph_Pestell]

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

It can be difficult to tell the difference

 

My ex-wife never could. Kept ordering stuff which took weeks to arrive from China.

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

If however you see "Sold by XXXX store and Fulfilled by Amazon" that means you are NOT buying from Amazon! In such cases Amazon is basically acting as a logistics company and NOT a retailer. Amazon take on responsibility for processing payment and arranging delivery of the merchandise but do not set the price which it retails for or control any discounts, etc.

 

I wonder why anyone would do this if, like Hornby, you have great brand recognition. Taking payment is easy these days and I don't see what Amazon brings to the table in terms of delivery arrangements. Hornby will still need a good relationship with their local courier either way.

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 hours ago, 1andrew1 said:

The Hornby Group do dabble in the US market in a very small way ,from time to time. They'll be releasing a Heisler Steam locomotive and log cars this October.  https://uk.rivarossi.com/catalogue/coming-soon?spring=true&summer=true&autumn=true&winter=true&page=1

 

When you think where they started from! Rivarossi was a big name in US model railroading. How has it got to this position where it is just an occasional player?

 

I suppose, putting it bluntly, Hornby has not had the cash to invest into Rivarossi and the models are not really up to today's standards. But as a premium brand, should they not have made better use of it, if only by rebranding some of the better Jouef and Lima products as Rivarossi?

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Didn't they also make a Big Boy or am I imagining that?

 

Not really up on the old foreign stuff. I remember they made a pretty good Royal Scot and LMS coaches, but they were the wrong scale. ISTR it was something like 3.8MM to the foot.

 

Not my video.

 

 

 

Jason

 

For its era (mid 70s?), it was a superb model. Pity about the scale but I guess that they were looking to sell to European HO collectors as well.

Rivarossi were also responsible for the Peco Jubilee (1970?), much the best N gauge steam loco at the time. Why Peco chose the Jubilee is a bit of a mystery to me.

[Dunsignalling]

19 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

My ex-wife never could. Kept ordering stuff which took weeks to arrive from China.

 

I wonder why anyone would do this if, like Hornby, you have great brand recognition. Taking payment is easy these days and I don't see what Amazon brings to the table in terms of delivery arrangements. Hornby will still need a good relationship with their local courier either way.

Not quite sure what function Amazon provides beyond their distribution network, but Hornby are by no means alone in having such a relationship.

 

My new TV arrived yesterday, "Sold by Currys PC World and Fulfilled by Amazon". My guess is that it just makes it easier to ensure next-day delivery.

 

John

[Chris M]

8 hours ago, Legend said:

From memory aren’t most of the trade stands shops eg Cheltenham Model Centre , quite big on the Scottish Circuit .  Of course it probably means they won’t have any of the latest releases 

Cheltenham Model Centre is very much a proper model shop. It is well laid out, clean, tidy and already sells Scalextric etc as well as trains. It has a good website and is real family business. They don't have anything manufactured for them other than limited editions of existing models. They should make tier 1 on that basis and therefore have the latest releases at the same time as everyone else. The only thing they could be in trouble for is if they allow a 15% discount on new releases but I don't know whether they do discount Hornby new releases or not. I'm told by a different shop owner that Hornby don't allow discounts on new releases any more and any shops doing so will be either sacked or relegated.

 

I have no connection with the CMC other than a satisfied customer.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Chris M

[Enterprisingwestern]

12 hours ago, Trains4U said:

I think that’s the second time you’ve pushed that button...

 

Those models are commissioned from a manufacturer.  We are not the manufacturer, we have no financial or other interest in the manufacturer and we do not own the tools.

 

We have a degree of (time limited) exclusivity over some of the production run.

 

we have exclusivity on the KFA and some other forthcoming models

 

we have done it in the past with Bachmann

 

 There are lots of other retailers in the same position (Kernow, Gaugemaster, TMC, Olivias, Rails, Harburn... the list goes on)

 

12 hours ago, Trains4U said:

Having typed the above, I’ve just checked my emails to find an order amendment from Hornby

(2 of the Beatles vans reduced)

 

sigh...

 

With regard to the HAA, depending on Hornby''s current seemingly megalomaniacal tendencies, how confident are you that they won't shift the goalposts again at sometime in the future and use your selling of a competing model as a stick to beat you with, based on the fact that some segments of your buyers they will be buying the non Hornby one instead of the Hornby one?

 

11 hours ago, cbrooks122000 said:

I know when I was a student and worked in a bakery, I watched the same bread being loaded into two wrapping and slicing machines one being the "own brand" and the other the store product bread. 

 

You want to see the lorries which go in and out of the Hovis bakery in Kimberley, Nottingham, especially the supermarket ones which have the tractors and trailers covered in adverts for things such as car and beer companies to try and throw you off the scent, but have the supermarket name in small print on the cab door, as in XYZ leasing operating for ABC supermarkets!

 

11 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

They also supply Argos and other non railway retailers and have done for years. Amazon is a massive global marketplace - first stop for many people nowadays. I've always wondered why more of our retailers aren't represented on it. 

 

As Amazon is only a marketplace so there's not really any point in smaller suppliers using it, they'll be happy with the way they run their business as it is, and their after sales service can't possibly be any worse than Amazons, so IMHO it's best avoided and kudos to them for doing so.

 

Mike.

[Bernard Lamb]

8 hours ago, JeremyC said:

Harburn are my local model shop (who I try to support). They have never commissioned new items of rolling stock; all their commissions that I've seen are reliveries of existing models done for them by the original item manufacturer.

Split hairs if you like. A new exclusive livery is a commission in my book.

Bernard (Who also supports them, usually when visiting the Italian deli just along the road).

[Legend]

30 minutes ago, Chris M said:

Cheltenham Model Centre is very much a proper model shop. It is well laid out, clean, tidy and already sells Scalextric etc as well as trains. It has a good website and is real family business. They don't have anything manufactured for them other than limited editions of existing models. They should make tier 1 on that basis and therefore have the latest releases at the same time as everyone else. The only thing they could be in trouble for is if they allow a 15% discount on new releases but I don't know whether they do discount Hornby new releases or not. I'm told by a different shop owner that Hornby don't allow discounts on new releases any more and any shops doing so will be either sacked or relegated.

 

I have no connection with the CMC other than a satisfied customer.

Cheers  Chris . I only know Cheltenham through their appearance at Scottish shows such as Ayr , Glasgow and Perth .Always helpful and well stocked , probably my definition of a Tier 1 supplier - no idea about Hornby!  What I meant was as people will no longer  pre order from Hattons , that volume must shift to other retailers who will obviously satisfy pre order demand first . This means that newer models are less likely to appear in stands at Model Railway Shows . Depends on volume and popularity of the model of course . 

[Trains4U]

Lots of you are getting in a froth about how commissioned models might affect tiering decisions.

 

to quote Hornby’s press release:

 

Such Tier 3 designated retailers may also manufacture their own branded model railway items which might possibly conflict with those produced by Hornby Hobbies Ltd.

 

livery commissions are not own branded, they are clearly manufacturer branded, though may have some retailer branded packaging elements, such as a label or differently coloured box.

 

The KFA that I commissioned is exclusive to us, but not forever, and is in a Cavalex box

 

The HAA is a Cavalex model and branded as such

 

none of these examples contravene the statement above.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Trains4U
Spelling

[adb968008]

The great thing about tiers...

its so uncomplicated, that is ambiguous that its got exceptions to the variables that are opposite to the constants that allow deviations which come with alternatives and offers solutions where there are aspects that can be oblivious to the opaqueness that are singularly but plurally oblique whilst clear and straight sided except for the curves which provide a transparent view that is unclear of the situation.

 

Perhaps some school yard thinking might help...

Tier 1... “My Mates”

Tier 2.. “Everyone else”

Tier 3.. “the one guy everyone hates”.

 

Invisible Tier 0.. “those friends my parents tell me I have to like but only see on special occasions”.

Edited May 27, 2021 by adb968008

[Colin_McLeod]

8 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

Oh,  there is no published list of graded stockists because the grading system that the manufacturer is so proud of will disadvantage those stockists who sell their product.

 

I understood your post up to this sentence, then got baffled.

[adb968008]

8 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

I understood your post up to this sentence, then got baffled.

At last i’m not alone in this thread.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by adb968008

[Patriot87003]

I don’t envy anyone working in any part of any supply chain at the moment; optimising supply and demand is a continuous challenge and many factors can influence and hinder this balancing act.

 

I saw this interesting BBC business news article yesterday. While it’s related to the U.K. building industry, it highlights a few of the less obvious/less publicised challenges facing the supply chain (in addition to the fluctuating demand caused by the side effects of the Covid crisis).

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57247757

 

Just one snippet from the article that maybe a causal factor to Hornby’s supply v demand balancing act ...

 

There has also been a sharp rise in shipping costs, said Noble Francis, economics director of the Construction Products Association. "Shipping costs have risen sharply due a shortage of empty containers from Covid-19-related issues and the sharp recovery in global demand," he told the BBC. For instance the cost of shipping a 40ft container from Asia to Northern Europe soared from $1,500 (£1,061) in summer 2020 to more than $8,300 (£5,873) by May 2021, he said.

 

Later in the article there’s a prediction that the shipping costs should begin to subside in the next 3 to 6 months ... so on one hand, likely to be pressure to manufacture, ship and sell goods ASAP to meet demand/plans and maintain cash flow ... but on the other, maybe more efficient to delay some products (especially larger/bulky/lower value items).

 

 

[Chris M]

I can see how what I think is Hornby’s business plan makes sense. Like any business they have to maximise profit in order to survive. It seems that their plan is to sell their “toy” ranges through the usual toy outlets which makes good sense. It could well be that their strategy for models for adults is to try to make them in sufficient quantities to fulfil demand and no more, perhaps erring towards not quite making enough. The reason for this is that they can sell all the stock at full price with no heavy discounting. If possible this will be sold through Hornby’s own online sales rather than through a third party thus Hornby get the whole of the profit. Keeping Hornby in the better model shops is good for keeping the brand name strong and having a good image and so is important. I would expect that there is a target to sell as much as possible through their online sales though. I could easily be wrong about the business plan but that sort of approach seems a sensible way to keep afloat in a competitive  business world.

 

I hope it works out for Hornby but I must confess I’m not too concerned as I do N and G.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Chris M

[Andy Hayter]

26 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

I understood your post up to this sentence, then got baffled.

 

Because if you advertise a shop a category 2 and the customer has a chance to go to (physically or virtually) a category 1 shop for his preorder, which do you think the majority of customers will choose?

[GWR-fan]

34 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

I understood your post up to this sentence, then got baffled.

 

Well it was plain and simple to me.  If Hornby published a list of tiers 1, 2 and 3 stockists then simply because you are a tier 2 is no guarantee that you will be able to supply pre-ordered items,  so would not a customer pre-order where he is assured of receiving his item, i.e., a tier 1 seller,  at the expense of a tier 2 stockist who may or may not be allocated enough items to satisfy any pre-orders that he may receive.

[spamcan61]

7 minutes ago, Chris M said:

I can see how what I think is Hornby’s business plan makes sense. Like any business they have to maximise profit in order to survive. It seems that their plan is to sell their “toy” ranges through the usual toy outlets which makes good sense. It could well be that their strategy for models for adults is to try to make them in sufficient quantities to fulfil demand and no more, perhaps erring towards not quite making enough. The reason for this is that they can sell all the stock at full price with no heavy discounting. If possible this will be sold through Hornby’s own online sales rather than through a third party thus Hornby get the whole of the profit. Keeping Hornby in the better model shops is good for keeping the brand name strong and having a good image and so is important. I would expect that there is a target to sell as much as possible through their online sales though. I could easily be wrong about the business plan but that sort of approach seems a sensible way to keep afloat in a competitive  business world.

 

I hope it works out for Hornby but I must confess I’m not too concerned as I do N and G.

I dont see Tier 1 shops as 'better" , just not perceived as a threat by Hornby. As from brand image, they are the only toy train brand recognised by the vast majority of the population, what more do they want?  As a former employer of mine learnt the hard way, getting obsessive about brand image rather than the actual business can have unfortunate consequences financially.

[AY Mod]

Several weeks into this whole issue I'm still struggling to see why it needed to be done. 

[97406]

Of course, there is always their eCommerce site. The banning of discounts on new models at retailers as per earlier comments on this thread means that you may as well go to the Hornby website. They get better margin on the sales, rather than going through the resellers. Lots of my customers who supply wholesale are setting up their own web shops too. Having cogitated on the matter, in many ways it’s a smart move by Hornby. Not without certain risks, but so is the case with anything in life.

Edited May 27, 2021 by 97406

[spamcan61]

5 minutes ago, 97406 said:

Of course, there is always their eCommerce site. The banning of discounts on new models at retailers as per earlier comments on this thread means that you may as well go to the Hornby website. They get better margin on the sales, rather than going through the resellers. 

Online sales aren't a one way street though, instead of dealing with say 100 retailer customers you've now got thousands of consumers as customers, and you need the back end systems to support that step change in volume. Plus, even if the remaining dealer network are still doing some of the first line support for free, there's still a need for more customer support than the retailers needed.

[LimboBrit]

12 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

Several weeks into this whole issue I'm still struggling to see why it needed to be done. 

Could it be that the feedback they were getting from retailers on pre-order quantities was proving to be too inaccurate to be used when placing orders at the factories leaving models either in short supply or leaving Hornby with excessive stock? And/or they see this as a way of boosting their average selling price?

[APOLLO]

25 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

Several weeks into this whole issue I'm still struggling to see why it needed to be done. 

 

Just a simple, 100% honest statement from Hornby would have prevented most of this angst.

 

If they are having supply problems, and think they will not get the numbers ordered from the manufacturers TELL US

If the models ordered take longer to arrive, TELL US

If they hold X % of said models for their own website TELL US

If they reduce certain shops orders in a tier based system - TELL US

If they have a falling out with a particular retailer TELL US nicely, and simply - we don't need to know exact details.

 

A bit of honesty (especially when the news is bad) goes a long way in public relations.

 

Brit15