Hornby model shop Tiers system

[GWR-fan]

4 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

Well where I worked (British Gas) when things went wrong we (well I - it was part of my job) actually went to visit affected customers and told them the truth face to face - good or bad. When we messed up (and we did now ang again, sometimes big style) I found honesty, apologies and more over ACTION sorted it out.

 

Sorry - Hornby is hiding behind corporate speak / customer unfriendly actions. They have problems.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

Alas,  in today's contiguous world admitting you are wrong is opening you up to a world of law suits.   An apology is an admission of guilt.  If it was me then I would tell the aggrieved party that I was wrong and I would fix the problem to their satisfaction,  but then I am not a corporation,  just someone who was brought up to take responsibility for my actions.

[The Stationmaster]

43 minutes ago, amwells said:

Hornby clearly still need to do something - they aren’t making any profit and have backers that have supported them to a big amount.  Though I do wish people would stop saying they have big loans to pay off - that’s not what the public financial statements say. They do have big (relative to size of the company) equity investors who will be looking for a return on that investment. 
 

Whether this is the right action, time will tell but while the CEO says that the ‘engine is fixed’, the public financial statements suggest that it’s not fixed in a way that gives a satisfactory return (would anyone be happy with pumping in £millions and getting £0 return)?

 

To me, Hornby is still in a critical situation. Yes much better than it was before (much, much better), but still not where it needs to be to be sustainable. This is not about corporate greed as some have suggested, it’s about survival. And many retailers that we are talking about have a mutual need on that survival, so as an enthusiast and customer, I hope it works out well for all. 

Actually they have two large borrowing facilities.  the facility they have from the Us company cost them money whether they use it or not so there is a fee there as an amount of interest and they have tp payback what they have used of that facility next year - which makes it a loan to be repaid.  And it is a facility/loan against Hornby Group's assets.  All quite clear in RNS and in their accounts.

 

I would agree with your second & third paragraphs to the extent that in reality we don't really know if the engine is permanently fixed although the CEO has expressed the view that it is.  2020 was an unusual year in the hobby market with a very positive impact on sales for retailers and some 'manufacturers' due to home based creative hobbies suddenly becoming more popular.  Some of that has continued this year from what retailers have told me but the outlook is uncertain because it remains unclear whether people will revert to spending on other things (if circumstances so allow).   To me the sign of a successful 'fix' will be what happens once the 'new normal' has fully emerged and become established and i don't think any of us can be sure when that will be.

[Phil Parker]

6 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Well where I worked (British Gas) when things went wrong we (well I - it was part of my job) actually went to visit affected customers and told them the truth face to face - good or bad. When we messed up (and we did now ang again, sometimes big style) I found honesty, apologies and more over ACTION sorted it out.

 

So you want a Hornby rep to arrive on everyone's doorstep? We need to remember that RMweb members are just a subset of Hornby's customer base, very likely not even the majority.

 

I'm sure when you visited your customers, you enjoyed being told you were stupid and having your job explained to you. We've already had people here tell us that estimating exact production runs two years in the future is easy, and that the focus shouldn't be on making new stuff but providing spares for obsolete models. My favourite is the suggestion they shouldn't make any changes until the firm was running to the satisfaction of everyone on the forum!

[PaulRhB]

4 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

Actually, we are having supply issues with Peco, and we don't always know what we will get in the box, but Peco have been completely transparent about their issues in providing covid-safe manufacturing and distribution capacity and the associated impact it has had on their product availability.  It is a temporary problem that will be resolved and we are doing our best to support them, as they have supported us over the years.

The advantage with Peco is it is purely a delay, not wondering if it will ever arrive. 

Thank you for the informed info Gareth it matches exactly what the other two shops I’ve talked to since this landed have said. 
 

I hope Hornby take this reasonable comment as constructive criticism because it’s obvious shops like the product but are struggling to provide the complete service Hornby aspire to in their statement because of the uncertainties of their own supply. 

[Legend]

I think this Tier system is just a smoke screen .  There's just no point looking at it because its riddled with inconsistencies .

 

What has been the effect ?  Well stand back from it . The major retailer affected is Hattons .  Yes there are a few others but they are possibly collateral damage . It looks to me that Hornby have directly targeted Hattons pre order business . This is what all this is about . They want this Pre order business to themselves  so we all order from them directly at full RRP . That way they get max cash for their new introductions , possibly with an eye with loan repayments coming up .    So cut Hattons allocation, encourage people to order direct , any fall out will be picked up  other retailers , dress the whole thing up under new Tier system

 

 

[Chris M]

59 minutes ago, PeterStiles said:

The annoying thing is that I'd been thinking, as retirement planning is starting to play on my mind, that I'd love nothing better than to run a Model Railway Shop when I leave all this office work behind... Bother,.

Good idea if you want to make a small fortune - out of a large fortune! :)

[RJennings]

I am somewhat puzzled as to what Hornby are wishing to achieve with this tiering system?

 

From an end customer who pre-ordered with their choice of retailer upon announcement of products and then subsequently had these cancelled due to Hornby having given them a tier 3 rating so would get limited choice of what was available I am somewhat concerned (Or disheartened) that I've received another e-mail this morning from another retailer (Not naming as think its unfair as clearly not their fault) to advise that what I had pre-ordered after having the first cancelled elsewhere and done in good time could no longer be supplied due to the tiering system Hornby have imposed (And affecting numbers re-ordering through themselves).

 

So unless Hornby are wanting to encourage ordering direct (I would if the old 10% club discount still remained admittedly and it was not for the £5.95 postage for a single coach nowadays) I think I will be leaving Hornby well alone in future years.

 

Personally as someone who uses the online method to purchase models more so than visiting a physical shop whether a shop is deemed to be clean / tidy etc to Hornbys standards is a little irrelevant - As long as the model turns up - Is safely packaged - And does not resemble a kit upon opening thats all I expect. Aftersales help and advice is useful granted but for most issues places like RMWeb can offer better help and advice a lot quicker.

 

Not blaming said retailers and ultimately feel they are getting the bad end of this in all but all said and done the nails are being put (slowly) into the Hornby coffin in my opinion / experience thus far.

 

Edit: Clarity

Edited May 27, 2021 by RJennings

[adb968008]

14 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

So you want a Hornby rep to arrive on everyone's doorstep? We need to remember that RMweb members are just a subset of Hornby's customer base, very likely not even the majority.

 

I’m not sure i would want to be a Hornby sales rep turning up on their customers doorsteps right now.

Which is what a rep is paid to do... represent the company.

 

Tier 1 sure might be a back slapping happy chat, Tier 3’s know exactly where they stand, and have no reason to hold back.. their train is derailed. Cant even point them to the wholesaler as thats gone too.

Might as well just delete them from the account list.

 

Lets just hope theirs a sunlight horizon coming of new market opportunities for those reps to earn commission or have reps been downsized and accounts consolidated too ?

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by adb968008

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

So you want a Hornby rep to arrive on everyone's doorstep? We need to remember that RMweb members are just a subset of Hornby's customer base, very likely not even the majority.

 

I'm sure when you visited your customers, you enjoyed being told you were stupid and having your job explained to you. We've already had people here tell us that estimating exact production runs two years in the future is easy, and that the focus shouldn't be on making new stuff but providing spares for obsolete models. My favourite is the suggestion they shouldn't make any changes until the firm was running to the satisfaction of everyone on the forum!

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by tomparryharry

[Roy Langridge]

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

Several weeks into this whole issue I'm still struggling to see why it needed to be done. 

 

Nail, hammer, head Andy.

 

I also fail to see why it had to retrospectively applied. It doesn't take a genius to work out that such an approach would alienate customers with log standing pre-orders.

Roy

[PaulRhB]

13 minutes ago, Legend said:

any fall out will be picked up  other retailers , dress the whole thing up under new Tier system

As a friend pointed out such tier systems are actually normal in business, what’s unusual is to tell the customers where they are in the system! People moaned for years that Hattons got bigger discounts from Hornby than their local, affecting its ability to compete. In that respect this is good for you local shop because the two biggest are pushed to the lower tiers. What’s not good is that there’s still uncertainty that a pre order will actually result in that stock arriving at your local shop as a result of this ‘fairer’ system. Hornby need to be able to tell retailers within a few days of placing orders what they will actually get so customers can look elsewhere and not end up in the situation I had of having to look elsewhere 16 months later after a jan 2020 pre order that pre dates this whole system. On that one I hold Hornby and Hattons equally responsible as Hornby moved the goal posts, as the model is delayed, on Hattons and Hattons then told the early pre order customers last!

All in all a right mess and while I want the model and now hoping that Hornby will actually deliver it I’m frankly not going to be surprised with this attitude to customers if I get dumped as a late order if not enough arrive. Mr K can dress that up in fancy language all he likes but I committed to buy on 6th Jan last year and they only told Hattons a month ago it was not going to be supplied. 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by PaulRhB

[APOLLO]

4 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

So you want a Hornby rep to arrive on everyone's doorstep? We need to remember that RMweb members are just a subset of Hornby's customer base, very likely not even the majority.

 

I'm sure when you visited your customers, you enjoyed being told you were stupid and having your job explained to you. We've already had people here tell us that estimating exact production runs two years in the future is easy, and that the focus shouldn't be on making new stuff but providing spares for obsolete models. My favourite is the suggestion they shouldn't make any changes until the firm was running to the satisfaction of everyone on the forum!

 

Hornby's main customers are their retailers, they are letting most down - It is these retailers need more honesty (etc) from Hornby.

No need to visit me as my Amazon A2/2 is running perfectly. £132 of Amazon last week - now back to full price !!!!! Crazy. 

 

I can't remember too many of our customers behaving like you said - most were more than happy to speak to someone quickly and face to face who could sort out their (usually our) problems. Yes some gave Flack etc, just a part of life.

 

Someone mentioned todays litigious society, where you have to be careful with what you say etc.  Wasn't like that years ago. I doubt anyone does these days what we did for the customer out of concern for litigation. Sad times.

 

Brit15

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

 

I also fail to see why it had to retrospectively applied. It doesn't take a genius to work out that such an approach would alienate customers with log standing pre-orders.

Roy

 

It might make sense, if, perhaps, it were an ex post facto rationalisation of the prior ad hoc treatment of certain retailers. There have been examples of denial of anticipated supply before now. Now it's been dignified as policy.  As to the alienation point, yes, you may well think that a plan should be rather more than a list of businesses you fear and dislike!  

 

Ian Hargreaves was quite right to correct me earlier; Rails came to the decision that it no longer wished to supply Hornby.

[Edwardian]

Just now, APOLLO said:

 

Someone mentioned todays litigious society,

 

Personally, I'm all for it! 

[LimboBrit]

1 hour ago, Trains4U said:

It may be that covid has impacted factory capacity and Hornby have decided to have less of everything rather than none of something, restricting supply

You could be right but I don't think this would be consistent with Hornby's own explanation for what they are doing.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

Several weeks into this whole issue I'm still struggling to see why it needed to be done. 

it kind of feels like theirs been a focus to mid-market. Maybe large and small accounts just dont work for them.
 

Focussing in new online channels and big retails is another area... perhaps Amazon is seen as a replacement for Hattons/Rails, The toy market to retailers removes need for ABGee.

 

whether it works for them is something else.

 

I cant help thinking theres something in store for the ring fenced stallions of Tier 1.. I wonder if that status comes with a price attached down the road.

[Phil Parker]

2 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Hornby's main customers are their retailers, they are letting most down - It is these retailers need more honesty (etc) from Hornby.

 

Which they will do via the Reps and trade-specific briefings, your post:

 

 

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

Just a simple, 100% honest statement from Hornby would have prevented most of this angst.

 

If they are having supply problems, and think they will not get the numbers ordered from the manufacturers TELL US

If the models ordered take longer to arrive, TELL US

If they hold X % of said models for their own website TELL US

If they reduce certain shops orders in a tier based system - TELL US

If they have a falling out with a particular retailer TELL US nicely, and simply - we don't need to know exact details.

 

A bit of honesty (especially when the news is bad) goes a long way in public relations.

 

Brit15

 

asks for that information to be placed in the public domain, presumably on RMweb.

 

Talking to the trade is one thing, posting detailed public statements is another. We only had a statement because I asked for one, the trade had been informed weeks earlier. Had Hattons not cancelled pre-orders, I doubt there would have been much noise about the whole thing.

[Roy Langridge]

8 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Because as someone pointed out earlier, they have production issues and cannot meet their promised preorders. 

 

Sorry, that doesn't stand up. Items were sold out on pre-order at Hornby, stock was taken from retailers moved to lower tiers and, miracle of miracles, made available on the Hornby website again.

 

Smoke and mirrors - with many falling for it.

Roy

[jonnyuk]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Under what looks increasingly like a form of retail Apartheid, the question arises "if they can do it to Hatton's, who's next, and who's safe?" Even amongst those who seem OK this time, it will be a very confident retailer who isn't wondering where they will stand next year or the year after. 

 

Those in Tier 3 (and not just Hatton's) will need to make up the the revenue formerly generated from pre-selling new releases, which is effectively being diverted to others and/or Hornby Direct. The cynical/realistic view, is that by the time they are permitted to order from Hornby, any really popular stuff will be sold-out and their intended function will be to clear Hornby's shelves of slow selling releases and keep the back catalogue ticking over.

 

To me, Hornby's stated policy still smacks of a gradual move towards attracting new customers through mainstream outlets and at least predominantly direct selling of everything thereafter. My feeling is that the process isn't likely to be concluded under the present top management, but when that changes it may happen very quickly.

 

However, the writing is well-and truly on the wall IMO and retailers will want/need to hedge against the possibility by increasing non-Hornby sales as a proportion of their overall turnover. Anybody whose business is heavily reliant on Hornby sales should urgently be working out what to do if Hornby shift the goalposts again.

 

That's the exact opposite of Hornby's short term needs, whatever their long-term intentions turn out to be, but the good old Law of Unintended Consequences is ignored at ones peril.

 

John

 

 

i wonder if said retailers need to look at it another way, positive.
I'll invest in a really good web site, lots of stock and a good online ordering system. I will invest in my shop, nice display cabinets showing off the products, well laid out. i'll put bigger adds in the magazines highlighting Hornby (now Hattons/Rails are not doing this). Its a chance for them to grasp the opportunity and form really strong relationships with Hornby.
Yes they may get shafted in the future but you have to try new approaches 

Edited May 27, 2021 by jonnyuk

[Phil Parker]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Focussing in new online channels and big retails is another area... perhaps Amazon is seen as a replacement for Hattons/Rails,

 

Since Hornby has been selling product to Amazon for many years, it's a very long-term strategy.

 

It's worth bearing in mind that Amazon and eBay are the first port of call for many modellers nowadays. Look at any model railway group on Facebook and you'll see postings from people who never venture further than either, and are horrified when someone (often me) suggests they go and look at a model shop, even online. As far as they are concerned, those two are all they need, and that attitude is growing. If you have signed up for Prime, the free and quick delivery is very appealing, and if they have what you want, it's no-brainer.

 

People like me who love a grimy Tier 3 model shop full of dust and with at least one smelly customer cluttering up the back of the shop, are a minority. Those who just want another shiny box could just as easily buy it from Amazon as Kernow (other model stores are available) so that's what they do.

[jonnyuk]

7 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Yes, I am waiting for the tier 3 retailers to sue Hornby for noncompetitive terms and conditions. Those new terms and conditions worked 20 years ago, now they probably are sailing very close to the anti competition laws.

why? Hornby can sell to whom ever they want, rightly or wrongly. Some are missing that point. 

[PaulRhB]

1 minute ago, Phil Parker said:

Had Hattons not cancelled pre-orders, I doubt there would have been much noise about the whole thing.

Probably not on this scale I agree but Hornby have been missing things from orders at the last minute for at least three years now and it’s been irritating shops and customers. I’ve mentioned the three local shops sharing stock on the Pecketts as none of them got what they ordered but a box of only one type so it was left to their own sense of service to help each other and their customers out. 
The same uncertainty affected the Rocket sets last year with my local shops and the pre orders I have with them they admit are not 100% certain. 
Hornby does need to generally improve the communication on what stock will be supplied or follow up with a guaranteed second batch. 
To be brutally honest I would actually buy a duplicated item from Bachmann, Cavalex or Accurascale because I now feel there is more guarantee of getting it. 
It may be the child in me still hanging on but I do still get a bit of excitement about a pre order of a desirable model and that is being somewhat tarnished with Hornby. They still provide gorgeous models but their slipshod approach to supply is hurting their brand image. 

[Ian Hargrave]

1 minute ago, jonnyuk said:

i wonder if said retailers need to look at it another way, positive.
I'll invest in a really good web site, lots of stock and a good online ordering system. I will invest in my job, nice display cabinets showing off the products, well laid out. i'll put bigger adds in the magazines highlighting Hornby (now Hattons/Rails are not doing this). Its a chance for them to grasp the opportunity and form really strong relationships with Hornby.
Yes they may get shafted in the future but you have to try new approaches 

Which needs capital investment.That’s ideal of course. But right now many are struggling to survive and in any case given current circumstances is this the time to refinance for improvement ?

[andyman7]

27 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Nail, hammer, head Andy.

 

I also fail to see why it had to retrospectively applied. It doesn't take a genius to work out that such an approach would alienate customers with log standing pre-orders.

Roy

 

Unless I've missed something, the one clear glaring reason it has had to be applied is that Hornby have more orders for a number of items than they are going to have stock for (this includes their own web orders). Given Covid, shipping issues, manufacturing on the other side of the world etc there are more than enough reasons  for this to have occurred after initial dealer orders were taken. Assuming this to be the case, then no resolution is possible that isn't going to alienate someone.

It's a separate debate about how priority should then have been decided (e.g. don't sell direct and just supply the dealers). But the 'why' seems obvious.

 

19 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

Hornby's main customers are their retailers, they are letting most down - It is these retailers need more honesty (etc) from Hornby.

No need to visit me as my Amazon A2/2 is running perfectly. £132 of Amazon last week - now back to full price !!!!! Crazy. 

 

I can't remember too many of our customers behaving like you said - most were more than happy to speak to someone quickly and face to face who could sort out their (usually our) problems. Yes some gave Flack etc, just a part of life.

 

Someone mentioned todays litigious society, where you have to be careful with what you say etc.  Wasn't like that years ago. I doubt anyone does these days what we did for the customer out of concern for litigation. Sad times.

 

Brit15

 

Hornby's customers are the actual people that buy and use their products. Retailers are intermediaries, and in management-speak would be key stakeholders. 

It is interesting to contrast the situation with Peco. They have their own domestic production facility and therefore are in much more control of being able to assess both the causes and the resolution of production problems. (Although please lets not start the debate about making models in the UK, at least in this thread. It's already going great guns without further distraction).

Edited May 27, 2021 by andyman7

[andyman7]

10 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Sorry, that doesn't stand up. Items were sold out on pre-order at Hornby, stock was taken from retailers moved to lower tiers and, miracle of miracles, made available on the Hornby website again.

 

Smoke and mirrors - with many falling for it.

Roy

Falling for what?