Hornby model shop Tiers system

[Meld9003]

The question really isn't why they have introduced the tiers now, it's why it wasn't done before as it's basic management practice.

[APOLLO]

17 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Which they will do via the Reps and trade-specific briefings, your post:

 

 

 

asks for that information to be placed in the public domain, presumably on RMweb.

 

Talking to the trade is one thing, posting detailed public statements is another. We only had a statement because I asked for one, the trade had been informed weeks earlier. Had Hattons not cancelled pre-orders, I doubt there would have been much noise about the whole thing.

 

Fair enough. I'll leave it at that.

 

brit15

[Mike Harvey]

I wonder how Hornby classifies the efficiency of its own online selling operation. For years now I have ordered continental items from Hornby. On several occasions all the pre-orders have arrived in the warehouse on the same day, and been shipped in one parcel. Unfortunately I have always been charged a separate shipping fee for each item so sometimes over £50 in overpaid shipping. It then takes a phone call, and a wait, whilst each individual shipping fee is returned one by one to my credit card. Does that sound like Tier 1? Plenty of the Tier 3 stores offer much more customer oriented processes.

[jonnyuk]

2 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Which needs capital investment.That’s ideal of course. But right now many are struggling to survive and in any case given current circumstances is this the time to refinance for improvement ?

yes fair point to be honest.
Start small and build on it, get the ads in the mags, you can create very good websites using wizards online these days for not allot of money, a bit of research and you can soon work out to get your site further up the google search results. Costs very little to get a youtube page, link it to your site. Do what rails did at one point, product highlights. the same for facebook and other social media sites.

If you see the above increasing sales, then start to invest in a really good online ordering system (better than your current one etc)

all this costs very little, what it does take is time but if you own your own business i'm afraid thats the effort you have to put in.

[Roy Langridge]

Just now, andyman7 said:

Falling for what?

 

The "there wasn't enough stock available, therefore we had to tale ALL of a Tier 3 retailers' pre-orders away" line . For long standing orders, would it not have been fairer to just reduce the stock to retailers pro-rata and leave the retailer to do a first-ordered, firest serve approach?

Roy

[LimboBrit]

43 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

So you want a Hornby rep to arrive on everyone's doorstep?

I think a honest explanation to their customers in retail would suffice.

[The Stationmaster]

29 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Personally, I'm all for it! 

I think I can understand why you just said that

[Ighten]

1 hour ago, JohnR said:

 

However, the fact remains, that Amazon have purchased a large range of Hornby stock, and are selling it themselves.  From what has been mentioned, its nothing like the John Lewis example - there we are limited to 3 (possibly the most popular) models to purchase. 

 

 

Im not sure why you keep thinking this and repeating it - its not actually how it works - They dont buy and dont even employ buyers for most products- they approach and facilitate those who want to use them as warehousing services with shipping..

 

Heres an example of how the different wording on the right for distribution is a tool used by the vendor -- Same store in this case Hornby Store

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hornby-R3812-Steam-Locomotive/dp/B07X477PC7?ref_=ast_sto_dp

 

There are several others in the Hornby Store and several other differently named stores that technically when you click through to the  sometimes store dont really sell anything and at times allow themselves to be placed in a store zone.. Its how the vendor controls input and pricing/promotion and which algorithm is used if needed..

 

 

TBF to Hornby they need a solution to the China - Distribution - Production and Pandemic problems - the best thing that can happen is they get they go back to normal when production becomes the norm - And in a way this made sense until the part where they basically take offence at others manufacturing  or being in competition. Do they think that people will abandon the alternative product and the store just because it doesnt stock red boxes anymore because thats the dumbest thinking ever - it wont make competition go away.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Ighten

[BMS]

What is the current status of retail price maintenance abolition; forcing price reduction limits?

[spamcan61]

3 minutes ago, Ighten said:

 

Im not sure why you keep thinking this and repeating it - its not actually how it works - They dont buy and dont even employ buyers for most products- they approach and facilitate those who want to use them as warehousing services with shipping..

 

Heres an example of how the different wording on the right for distribution is a tool used by the vendor -- Same store in this case Hornby Store

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hornby-R3812-Steam-Locomotive/dp/B07X477PC7?ref_=ast_sto_dp

 

There are several others in the Hornby Store and several other differently named stores that technically when you click through to the store dont really sell anything.. Its how the vendor controls input and pricing/promotion and which algorithm is used if needed..

 

 

There are  Hornby items  on Amazon that are described as 'Dispatched from and sold by Amazon' so I think most people would say that Amazon is acting as the retailer in that case. e.g.:-

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hornby-Coach-Maunsell-S3777S-Crimson/dp/B077T3NTGJ

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

17 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

 

Unless I've missed something, the one clear glaring reason it has had to be applied is that Hornby have more orders for a number of items than they are going to have stock for (this includes their own web orders). Given Covid, shipping issues, manufacturing on the other side of the world etc there are more than enough reasons  for this to have occurred after initial dealer orders were taken. Assuming this to be the case, then no resolution is possible that isn't going to alienate someone.

It's a separate debate about how priority should then have been decided (e.g. don't sell direct and just supply the dealers). But the 'why' seems obvious.

 

Then why not say so?  I bet the vast majority of people might well express some disappointment if they miss out but they would at least understand why they are missing out and many would no doubt sympathise.  But that is not what Hornby have been saying, in fact they have said exactly the opposite in a statement to their shareholders also issued on RNS on 13 April where they explained the situation for Q4, below.

 

We go back, yet again, to the question asked by AY, and others - why is a tier system needed? (to which I add 'when it relates to cancellation of stock previously ordered by a retailer').

 

 

[Trains4U]

I think I'm done with this topic now.  Anything else will just be repeating myself - and I don't want to sound like a broken record...
(Besides, I don't want to risk writing something emotional  )

I've given as much detail as I sensibly can from the retail point of view - its all there if you care to read back through the 70 odd pages that this has generated.

[Paul.Uni]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hornby-R3847-Terrier-0-6-0T-Bembridge/dp/B08485JFX2/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Hornby+brembridge&qid=1622114630&sr=8-1-spell

@Ightenwho is selling this Terrier?

[Zunnan]

2 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

There are  Hornby items  on Amazon that are described as 'Dispatched from and sold by Amazon' so I think most people would say that Amazon is acting as the retailer in that case. e.g.:-

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hornby-Coach-Maunsell-S3777S-Crimson/dp/B077T3NTGJ

 

 

 

There are a lot of models being listed as 'Dispatched from and sold by Amazon'. Generally speaking when something previously has been sold by a retailer through Amazon it will tell you who is selling, as per this one from Gaugemaster.

 

Bachmann 38-128 VBA Railfreight Grey

[JohnR]

16 minutes ago, Ighten said:

 

Im not sure why you keep thinking this and repeating it - its not actually how it works - They dont buy and dont even employ buyers for most products- they approach and facilitate those who want to use them as warehousing services with shipping..

 

Heres an example of how the different wording on the right for distribution is a tool used by the vendor -- Same store in this case Hornby Store

 

 

For the purposes of the law - Amazon are the retailer in this instance. Hence why they have circumstances where they will said " Sold by Hornby.com, fulfilled by Amazon", where Hornby is the retailer. 

 

[Phil Parker]

22 minutes ago, Ighten said:

Im not sure why you keep thinking this and repeating it - its not actually how it works -

 

Because I've been told by Hornby that have sold stock to Amazon for years. 

[spamcan61]

16 minutes ago, Zunnan said:

 

There are a lot of models being listed as 'Dispatched from and sold by Amazon'. Generally speaking when something previously has been sold by a retailer through Amazon it will tell you who is selling, as per this one from Gaugemaster.

 

Bachmann 38-128 VBA Railfreight Grey

Indeed, but my point is Amazon are a retailer of Hornby products, full stop. That isn't to say that all Hornby products on the Amazon platform are sold by them, obviously.

[adb968008]

28 minutes ago, Paul.Uni said:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hornby-R3847-Terrier-0-6-0T-Bembridge/dp/B08485JFX2/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Hornby+brembridge&qid=1622114630&sr=8-1-spell

@Ightenwho is selling this Terrier?

Amazon

 

ive bought this week, in this thread... this is what it looks like...

 

An Amazon box, sold by Amazon, fulfilled by Amazon. The “return label” is Dunfermline Amazon returns.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by adb968008

[Zunnan]

12 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Indeed, but my point is Amazon are a retailer of Hornby products, full stop. That isn't to say that all Hornby products on the Amazon platform are sold by them, obviously.

 

I agree entirely. Its a prickly subject my local wants to have out with the rep too, because there are items for sale on Amazon which he cannot get for the shop.

[JohnR]

3 minutes ago, Zunnan said:

 

I agree entirely. Its a prickly subject my local wants to have out with the rep too, because there are items for sale on Amazon which he cannot get for the shop.

 

And at times, items on Amazon (the Thane of Fife, for instance), which are I suspect for sale less than he could have bought them from Hornby.

[AY Mod]

5 hours ago, Chris M said:

I'm told by a different shop owner that Hornby don't allow discounts on new releases any more and any shops doing so will be either sacked or relegated.

 

I'd go and question your source as that is not true. Repeating it here just means that someone else will think it's true because they read it on the internet; it isn't.

[Steven B]

The Tier system sort of makes sense. The better you serve your customers, and the more Hornby ranges you stock the better your terms with Hornby will be, Retailers can presumably work their way up the tiers if they want better first dibs on the new models. Allocating individual models from a batch based on where a retailer is on the ladder is understandable.

 

3 hours ago, Trains4U said:

We place our orders in January 

production quantities are known (or at least planned) at that time and we are advised at the time or shortly afterwards if any items are restricted and given allocations.

 

what is happening is that confirmed orders are being arbitrarily reduced by the supplier at short notice before delivery for whatever reason.

 

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the meetings between the sales and production teams. Take last year's release of Rocket. If you had pre-orders from shops for say 2500 models but had initially only planned to make 2000 why would you not extend the production run to accommodate the increased, guarantee, sales? Perhaps the factory only had a x week slot booked and extending it would delay other customers (at a cost to the factory)? Perhaps Hornby wanted to encourage sales of the run they're planning for the next year? (We think there's a market for 3000 models, but if we only make 2000 this year and re-run next year with a minor change we'll sell another 2000 as some will be bought by those who missed out and also by those who bought the first batch but want the extra items we've included with the new model).

 

Hornby isn't the first to be unable to for-fill all pre-orders. I had my pre-order of Dapol Silver Bullets (N Gauge) reduced because the retailer didn't get what they'd ordered. I'm sure most retailers could sell more SO and SK than Bachmann/Farish make if the fun I've had tracking down enough is anything to go by.

 

 

Steven B.

 

 

[Legend]

2 minutes ago, Steven B said:

The Tier system sort of makes sense. The better you serve your customers, and the more Hornby ranges you stock the better your terms with Hornby will be, Retailers can presumably work their way up the tiers if they want better first dibs on the new models. Allocating individual models from a batch based on where a retailer is on the ladder is understandable.

 

Steven B.

 

 

Eventually you’ll grow to be the most successful model railway retailer in the UK , offering a great range of products at reasonable price , a very efficient delivery system throughout the world and dedicated telephone lines offering help and guidance to consumers .      Oh wait , that was Hattons .  What a reward they got . 

[Ian Hargrave]

17 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

And at times, items on Amazon (the Thane of Fife, for instance), which are I suspect for sale less than he could have bought them from Hornby.

Hornby are at full r.r.p.in any case,surely. Amazon prices are dependent in many cases on the phases of the moon

[jonnyuk]

8 minutes ago, Legend said:

Eventually you’ll grow to be the most successful model railway retailer in the UK , offering a great range of products at reasonable price , a very efficient delivery system throughout the world and dedicated telephone lines offering help and guidance to consumers .      Oh wait , that was Hattons .  What a reward they got . 

but they are not a "proper shop" anymore, is that not the point?