Hornby model shop Tiers system

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

The name appears to have vanished when Lines Brothers went into receivership in 1971.  Various of their ranges were sold off at that time - as already noted in respect of model railway items.  The name Triang-Hornby which had been introduced in 1964/65 was changed to Hornby in 1971, mainly it appears for marketing reasons, following the model railway business and brand being taken over on the demise of Lines Brothers.  Interestingly the 'Dublo' part of Lines Bros original acquisition following the collapse of Meccano Ltd went to the buyer of the model railway range and brand.  

 

So as far as model railways are concerned the Triang brand, or a brand name incorporating it, went out of use 50 years ago.  It was perhaps was seen as a commercially tainted name following the collapse of the company which had developed the name from their triangular logo?  Contemporaneously Triang trains had generally been regarded as the most down-market of the three r-t-r model railway ranges available up until then on the British market although they had seen some improvement in the 1960s.

 

Alas the liquidator's report for the disposal of Lines Brothers assets is not available online.

It didn't vanish in 1971, it was sold with the Pedigree part of the business and the Canterbury plant and therefore not part of the DCM bundle that took on Roves and the Hornby/Scalextric brands with the Margate plant. I think one of Jonathan Harvey-Jones' Troubleshooter episodes in the 1980s was on the then-Triang product range of toy pushchairs, plastic ride on toys etc.

The name has been defunct for a number of years which under trademark law made it ripe to be re-used without lawsuit, which is why it was so pleasant to see Hornby bring it back for some of the 100th Anniversary releases. It was also used fairly recently on a reissued range of Minic ships but they now seem to have ceased production - I don't think that was anything to do with Hornby.

[Robert Scott]

4 hours ago, MrTea said:

 

I've always liked ordering from Hattons over the years. I have fond memories of brown paper parcels arriving very promptly from Smithdown Road in the late 80s and early 90s.

 

I don't know if anyone's got the latest Railway Modeller (I haven't had chance to check other mags yet) but I think the answer is hiding in plain sight with regards to Hattons' current relationship with Hornby.

 

They have 2 double pages of advert in the June issue (12a-15a) and out of approx 60 products featured on the first double page spread there are only 4 Hornby products (1 loco, 1 train set and 2 turnouts) featured! Most tellingly, of the upcoming products featured on p12a there are NO new Hornby products, the majority are Dapol or Heljan across 00, N and 0 scales. I seem to remember they've previously featured upcoming Hornby products e.g. A2/3 in this area.

 

The second double page spread covers their second hand/buy back service.

 

Q: Of those who had pre-order with Hattons, did you have to put down a deposit or pay in full? Or was it payment when the goods arrive with the retailer?

I had pre-orders with Hattons, no deposit was required, they would have taken payment upon supply.

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

Yikes, one would think that Hornby have taken away everything from you. I hope you succeed in single handedly taking down Hornby. 

 

Hi,

 

I have explained that elsewhere. It is precisely what happened to me, hence my strong feelings in the matter. As retailer, you are the pig-in-the middle between producer and end-user. You commit to getting a product for the end-user and then get let down. You can't run any business like that.

 

I used to pay some of my suppliers up front (normal as I was a newcomer and I prefer cash to credit whenever possible). I would enquire if item x was available, they would say "yes" and send me a pro forma invoice which I would pay immediately. After about a week, I would ring to be told that there had been an error in the computer stocklist and the item was not available. They would send me a refund. The problem with that is that you can't sell a refund and make a profit.

 

It was not Hornby but a "brand" that has since become part of Hornby. But I don't in any way blame Hornby for the actions of someone else (even if he is now a Hornby employee or agent).

 

I don't want any retailer to suffer damage / failure through this current Hornby incident.

 

Joseph

[Joseph_Pestell]

12 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Exactly.

All on this forum are railway modellers, or else we would not be here.

 

Many appear to buy things online because they know exactly what they want.

Hornby have other customers too, many of whom buy their products when they see them on display in shops.

Only Hornby know how they believe their customer base is split. Their announcement implies that they believe retailers with physical shops which people actually visit is important to their business model.

I do not have access to their sales figures, nor am I ever likely to, so this means I am in no position to judge whether or not this is a good strategy.

 

Yes, absolutely. Many of us want the hobby to have access to bricks and mortar outlets. As town centres have to adjust to new shopping trends, most towns would love to have a model shop to draw footfall into all the coffee bars, burger bars, etc.

 

But Hornby are saying one thing and doing the opposite,

[PaulRhB]

7 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Now Hattons appear to have been demoted, again frustrating many customer pre-orders. I hope those who excoriated Hattons over cancelled pre-orders will feel somewhat abashed and place the blame where it truly lies.

Well where does it actually lie? I emailed Hattons as I still haven’t heard despite ordering on 6th Jan 2020 and got this response,

So you can’t contact me about it? So how do you explain the last 12 months of these emails? I haven’t unsubscribed recently I’ve always blocked marketing emails. 

 

Hattons have replied with a bog standard fob off email and yes I’ve replied pointing this out and the inconsistencies in their updates. I further bet that letter if it ever arrives is post dated today. 
Hornby and Hattons have made a mess of this and if it wasn’t for the bully tactics on the 91 I’d happily have bought the Cavalex one after the struggle to get the initial Pecketts with my local shops being mucked around since 2019 on orders. It was down to those shops swapping stock that they were able to fulfil orders when Hornby supplied each with only one type. 
Hornby need to get their act together as even the lovely models are losing their shine in this. My local couldn’t guarantee the APT as to order full sets enough to guarantee getting one was too big a risk if they all turned up! The W1 on order with them is equally uncertain but I have the first order and he can shift the others if he gets them. 
It’s sad but both are at fault and I wasn’t going to pre order at several places and then cancel as it drops them in the crap too. 

I’ve wanted a decent APT since I saw it on trips up to the grandparents in the 80’s and the original model never quite cut it. Unfortunately it’s still not certain I’ll be able to get a full set even with the second pre order attempt as a resolution of this as I won’t be surprised if not enough turn up again or an odd coach set is missing. 

 

[atom3624]

Am I the only one wondering where Dominic Cummings went after leaving the Government ....   !!!

 

Al.

[CUCKOO LINE]

43 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

Let's also chuck this into the mix, it's little off topic, but has some relevance to the way the Hornby Group operates. This is the toy catalogue launched on Monday.

 

 

 

I suspect a number of collectors would object to calling Scalextric and Corgi toys

[PaulRhB]

3 minutes ago, CUCKOO LINE said:

I suspect a number of collectors would object to calling Scalextric and Corgi toys

They are all toys including the trains 

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, Trains4U said:

It is probably worth noting that Hornby handle enterprise level business separately from independent retail business 

Tesco, Lidl, Argos and John Lewis are not going to be tiered...  These are huge contracts. Hornby probably sell more flying Scotsman train sets to Argos than all sets of all descriptions to all the independent retailers combined.

 

And do you know what, I’m more than happy for that to continue.   If a chance purchase of a train set in a large multiple sparks an interest, then I can look forward to the potential lifetime of follow up sales.

 

I got my first train set from a supermarket (a French one at that!)

but it was my local model shops that benefited in the long term.

 

So agree with this approach. 

 

Unfortunately, it does not work if you produce incompatible ranges.

 

Jouef used to that (may still do) and now Hornby are copying them.

[CUCKOO LINE]

Just had usual Hornby email advising new class 31s, available to purchase at thr Hornby website of your local stockist with the link to list of stockists which still includes Hattons and Rails. False advertising ? I think they need to change their statements re where available ?

[PaulRhB]

2 minutes ago, CUCKOO LINE said:

Just had usual Hornby email advising new class 31s, available to purchase at thr Hornby website of your local stockist with the link to list of stockists which still includes Hattons and Rails. False advertising ? I think they need to change their statements re where available ?

I think they can still order from Hornby’s warehouse in tier 3. 

[mdvle]

7 hours ago, Roddy Angus said:

I may be in a minority of one here, but I agree with what lies behind Hornby's tier system, that is not to say that I agree with what tiers any particular retailer has been put.  Is Hornby not simply wanting to ensure that the large number of small retailers spread around the country actually have the stock to sell to their customers?

 

The simplest way to achieve that is to make sufficient product.

 

Note that it is only Hornby that are struggling so bad.

 

Certainly over in North America, where pre-ordering has become common so the manufacturer can judge their order appropriately, doesn't have any of the tales of woe that have been common with orders of Hornby products over the last several years.

 

The problem isn't with the retailers, the problem is with Hornby.

 

7 hours ago, Roddy Angus said:

If a few retailers, with a significant internet presence, manage to corner the market by ordering large numbers of popular items, possibly even the whole run of a certain item, and can guarantee to have those orders fulfilled, then they are in a position to undercut local suppliers due to the economies of scale, or the item simply not being available locally due to those particular retailers having secured all the stock.

 

Again, this only happens if Hornby screws up.

 

If X orders 2,000 of an item and Hornby only then places an order to the factory for 2,000 items, the problem isn't X.

 

7 hours ago, Roddy Angus said:

Is Hornby not simply protecting the smaller local supplier by trying to limit the influence of the larger internet suppliers?

 

Many/most of the manufacturers have rules regarding the discounting of price for the first x weeks after availability - this protects smaller retailers.

 

 

7 hours ago, Roddy Angus said:

 

  They would be able to tell from the size of orders received whether the majority of sales are likely to be on the internet or by footfall.  For example, if I was a model shop in Alligin (look it up, it's near Torridon) and ordered 100 APTs, I am sure that Hornby would know that I was going to sell them all on line and not to passing trade.  If because of low overheads, I was able to sell at a discount and offer free extras, such as storage and postage, then I would be taking sales away from other shops.  Would anyone, as a manufacturer, want to aid the destruction of their seller network by assisting a few retailers to dominate the market?

 

Except as noted above, discounts are already limited.

 

And this has been going on for decades prior to Internet shopping being a thing - it was simply done using multi-page ads in magazines in the past.

 

7 hours ago, Roddy Angus said:

Once the seller network is destroyed, those few retailers remaining can then exert pressure to reduce the price they pay for Hornby's products, and Hornby have little option but to agree, as there are no local shops to sell to now, leading to a fall in income for Hornby, a reduction in research and new models and, eventually, the closing of the company.

 

If Hornby were so concerned about the retailers Hornby wouldn't be selling to / on Amazon...

 

7 hours ago, Roddy Angus said:

I can understand why those that are used to ordering from Hattons are disappointed by Hornby's move, I do order from Hattons and Rails if a product is not available locally, but I can equally understand why Hornby feel that they have to prevent a small number of very large retailers dominating the market, to the detriment of others.

 

So it is just co-incidence then that the tier system seems designed to punish anyone who decides to make their own product...

[Trains4U]

16 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

So agree with this approach. 

 

Unfortunately, it does not work if you produce incompatible ranges.

 

Jouef used to that (may still do) and now Hornby are copying them.

Didn’t Jouef make the Fobbi trains?

(whose TGV I picked up in Cherbourg Continent hypermarket back in 1985)

[spamcan61]

13 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

I think they can still order from Hornby’s warehouse in tier 3. 

I suspect, from what's been said here and elsewhere over the years, that a good chunk of retailers' Hornby revenue is from the new releases, so ordering from the warehouse would be cold comfort.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Not really, there wouldn't be any point in having 3 tiers if everyone was in Tier 1 or Tier 3.

 

Used to work well enough on the railways.

[mdvle]

22 hours ago, Wilkins said:

I shall note here, that while many wish Hornby their best wishes, they also cheer the endless march of new entrants to the market, none of whom have the same cost base, railways may not be there main business or source of income.

 

So what else are Heljan, Rapido, Accurascale, Hattons, Rails of Sheffield selling if railways aren't their main business?

 

22 hours ago, Wilkins said:

They can pick off a few items here and there while perhaps only incorporating two margins ( factory and themselves) into the final price.

 

The only ones doing that are a very small part of the market and no threat to Hornby.

 

22 hours ago, Wilkins said:

Hornby, and to some extent Farish, Peco and Bachmann are charged with funding a complete system for the newcomer and the enthusiast, they have at least 4 margins in their product, factory, themselves, an overseas distributor, and a store.

 

Again, same as Heljan, Rapido, Accurascale, etc.

 

Hattons/Rails of Sheffield are slightly different - but then again cutting them off means they now need to move into making their own stuff in a much bigger way, which will hurt Hornby more.

 

22 hours ago, Wilkins said:

….. always seems to be overlooked when discussing price. The large manufacturers with their sales reps, their service departments, their consumer services help lines, their sponsorship of major industry events, their marketing teams who keep the hobby in the public psyche are never compared fairly in my own very humble opinion.

 

Maybe the problem is that the smaller manufacturers are running a leaner, 2020 business model and that Hornby should be re-evaluating thing?

 

Why should a model train retailer need to deal with a sales rep?

 

22 hours ago, Wilkins said:

Worse than that, Hornby also finds itself in competition with its own customers, who have built up a good business selling Hornby items over many years and are now using the fruit of those labours against and in competition to Hornby. Put yourself in their shoes just for one moment. Should Hornby just roll over and quietly slip away under palliative care, or should they act to protect themselves?

 

Why should that matter.

 

In the US Walthers started as a manufacturer who also sold direct.

 

In 1960 they moved to become a distributor as well as a manufacturer.

 

For 60 years now they have continued to both sell (as a distributor and as a retailer) both their own products and thousands of 3rd party products including their major competitors.

 

22 hours ago, Wilkins said:

At this point, I shall note that I do not see read protests from the vast majority of the much-cherished local model shops I often read about.

 

So, Hornby have announced new rules designed to justify punishing a retailer(s) who they have a dispute/disagreement with - would you as a retailer put your head above the wall and risk your business?

 

 

[Phil Parker]

2 minutes ago, mdvle said:

Again, same as Heljan, Rapido, Accurascale, etc.

I must stock up on that Heljan trackwork, and the Accurascale controllers. Impressive as their products are only Hornby and Bachmann produce a range you could build an entire layout fron, unless you know different.

 

3 minutes ago, mdvle said:

Maybe the problem is that the smaller manufacturers are running a leaner, 2020 business model and that Hornby should be re-evaluating thing?

I recall this being said when DJM launched, and we know how well that went. 

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

17 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

The simplest way to achieve that is to make sufficient product.

 

Note that it is only Hornby that are struggling so bad.

 

Certainly over in North America, where pre-ordering has become common so the manufacturer can judge their order appropriately, doesn't have any of the tales of woe that have been common with orders of Hornby products over the last several years.

 

The problem isn't with the retailers, the problem is with Hornby.

 

 

Hornby were struggling so had to make changes. What we are discussing is the changes.

I was given a brief description from my local retailer a few months ago, so it was from their point of view & with less information than Hornby have given in their latest announcement, but better for them.

He also told me what Hornby are doing is similar to what Bachmann have been doing for several years.

 

While it is good for buyers to have items over-produced, it is bad for business to have unsold stock. It costs money to have stock sitting on shelves & the storage space itself also costs money. When you are a company trying to recover from large debts (as Hornby is), you must do all you can to keep these costs down.

[LimboBrit]

4 minutes ago, mdvle said:

Why should a model train retailer need to deal with a sales rep?

Somebody needs to keep tabs on when the shopkeeper last got the vacuum cleaner out.

[ruggedpeak]

 

5 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

I must stock up on that Heljan trackwork, and the Accurascale controllers. Impressive as their products are only Hornby and Bachmann produce a range you could build an entire layout fron, unless you know different.

So where are Gaugemaster in all this? They have a full range of competing products (model trains in OO inc. Class 47, controllers, DCC, scenics, buildings, tools (Hornby are doing those now) etc including former Hornby items and stock new entrant manufacturers.

 

Not really seeking an answer but leaves a few questions................

[The Johnster]

Hornby have IMHO handled this rather badly; an attempt to rationalise their distribution network to prioritise outlets that sell well has come across as arrogant and dictating terms to retailers, many of whom are already dissatisfied with Hornby’s treatment of them.  It looks to me as if this is in fact the case, but I am not a large RTR manufacturer or a retail outlet, so anything I say will be not fully informed.  The wording of it is suggestive of differential treatment of different businesses, though, based on no more than Hornby’s biased view of them, and that some will be treated unfairly because they do not not respect the dictatorial Law according to Hornby
 

But I believe Hornby under their current regime to be very aggressive, not entirely sure of their production policy, believe that they have an automatic right to produce ‘their’ products and object to competition, use ‘gazumping’ tactics to undercut such competition, and do not have the ability to make management decisions without the approval of their backers.  This is of course no more than Capitalism red in toof and clore, but it is not making them any friends, and will I believe come back to bite them in the future. 

[andyman7]

16 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Lets be honest Hornby management don't seem to have a clue. If you do like what I do and upgrade your old stock, or fix old locos you have exposure to the Hornby spares system. Well if they still have them for that model. I recently was converting my old Princess Elizabeth locos so that the decoder is in the tender, so it is easier to add sound. I needed a new tender bottom to fit the socket in. Hornby basically use that same tender on the Duchess and Scot/Patriot or at least the base (Scot coal are in slightly smaller), but the base is the same. I think so far I have found 4 different variants of roughly the same part, some with pickups, some without, some with drawbar screw some without. They do it with other parts as well. sometimes when you buy the wheels you get the conrods sometimes you don't. Sometimes you get the screws sometimes you don't. To make matters worse, the bits it doesn't come with regularly don't have a part number so you can't even buy them. This indicates a lack of "joined up thinking" teams working in isolation doing their own thing, meaning wasted resource.

You are not describing Hornby management, you are describing the modern world of contract manufacturing. There is another thread on RMWeb musing on the Hornby R154 Sir Dinaden, a 1976 release that was a real parts-bin job. You can pretty easily keep it running today, most parts can be found, but it doesn't look too much like an N15. 
Pretty much all our models today are one-off batch productions which may or may not share some parts with other releases but will not have been designed as anything other than a specific run that will not be repeated the same way. If you are going to take a previous model and change it, you cannot expect that just because a more modern variant exists, it will use the same parts in the same order wired or supplied in the same way. That may be frustrating from an engineering point of view but it is not the focus of Hornby's business to provide a comprehensive set of interchangeable parts for their models, they source those models from a supply chain infrastructure.

[woodenhead]

Just now, The Johnster said:

Hornby have IMHO handled this rather badly; an attempt to rationalise their distribution network to prioritise outlets that sell well

I believe Hattons would have been in the category of retail outlets that sell well, so clearly that is not their main priority here

[Dunsignalling]

14 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

So what else are Heljan, Rapido, Accurascale, Hattons, Rails of Sheffield selling if railways aren't their main business?

 

 

The only ones doing that are a very small part of the market and no threat to Hornby.

 

 

Again, same as Heljan, Rapido, Accurascale, etc.

 

Hattons/Rails of Sheffield are slightly different - but then again cutting them off means they now need to move into making their own stuff in a much bigger way, which will hurt Hornby more.

 

 

Maybe the problem is that the smaller manufacturers are running a leaner, 2020 business model and that Hornby should be re-evaluating thing?

 

Why should a model train retailer need to deal with a sales rep?

 

 

Why should that matter.

 

In the US Walthers started as a manufacturer who also sold direct.

 

In 1960 they moved to become a distributor as well as a manufacturer.

 

For 60 years now they have continued to both sell (as a distributor and as a retailer) both their own products and thousands of 3rd party products including their major competitors.

 

 

So, Hornby have announced new rules designed to justify punishing a retailer(s) who they have a dispute/disagreement with - would you as a retailer put your head above the wall and risk your business?

 

 

According to my former local supplier, the sales reps function is to push the stuff the retailer doesn't want to carry and attempt to placate him when he orders fifty of something and gets allocated two.

 

Then, a good while later, H made another batch and expected him to take the rest and attempt to flog them to his disappointed customers, most of whom had managed, with some difficulty, to get the item elsewhere..... 

 

Real example, and the "victim" has since packed it in so has no fear of Hornby sanctions.

 

John

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Although I can't get numbers for obvious reasons, apparently the majority of trade are in Tier 2, so to suggest that there is something wrong with this is a mistake.

I find that re-assuring actually.

 

Though it appears there is a anecdotal Tier 0 for High street retail such as Argos, JL, Amazon where different rules apply. But if most are Tier 2, then it suggests this shuffle is more academic.

I suspect sales totals still has an influence on who is in Tier 1.

 

interesting Kernow hasn't popped up in the discussion... they have a lot of comissions...Beatties, 02, Railmotor, Dj j94, D600, 102xx etc, and some of their toolings have gone to nationwide distribution via a Hornby competitor, which actually is quite the opposite of Hattons who I understand have quietly retreated from their wholesale to retail channel... is it ok to compete if you have a nice shop ?

 

I’m coming to conclude to us consumers, this Tiering doesn't amount to much, other than some behind the scenes positioning aimed at fitting a situation.

 

i dont think it will change anything about security of pre-orders and is more of a distration from what this was all about... pre-orders...

 

I suspect theres some dissapointment still to come, and Hornby will still be thrown under the bus if they cant supply.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by adb968008