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Hornby model shop Tiers system


Phil Parker
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31 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:


And Bure Valley Models trumps that at £161.99 post free

In reality, I trust my supplier. (i know .. he’s watching me).

 

However many people out there, myself included, for many other shops where I have ordered, I just wont know.

I have canceled some orders (several ‘k of orders), as I just don't know and I've little alternative to just give up and cancel some plans, rather than risk to buy whole sets of coaches (91,APT, HST etc ) and find myself in a place of being missing vital parts of a set, like a loco or a DVT etc.

Now conversely

 

We know theres a limit to supply.

We know not all shops are getting this.

We also know theres some big ticket high demand items coming down the road.

 

thats music festival syndrome..

That to me sets up a scalpers and touts paradise..  order 2 each from 10 Tier 1 shops you've got 20 models that you can project may lift way above RRP and put us to misery on ebay...

if only models had POS Barcode registration numbers for warranty.. it would take some of that pain away...it’d not be new any longer and your scalpers would be outed... but in doing so, it limits the temptation for market forces to push up prices, and then justifies a price hike in 2022.

 

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31 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

The only benefit in doing what you imagine would be to increase sales (no need if you have sold the entire run) or to be able to sell at a higher price (you can't, the RRP is set) - so how is the market being manipulated? While you think about it, I'll don my tin foil hat.

 

Well, Phil, it looks to me as if H are knowingly accepting orders that they are fully aware that they cannot meet, and have no intention of meeting.  This is manipulative and mendacious, but of course I am only saying that I think, suspect, that this is what is happening and not claiming it to be a fact; my first two words were 'I think...'.  No need for tinfoil hats yet.  If H can create a situation where demand exceeds supply for a product and the market is aware of this, the product's desirablitiy increases and so does the market price as people sell on models they have acquired on the 'Bay for more than the retail price.  Hornby are then justified in increasing the price, and will rake in profits as the costs of producing the model have not increased though the price has.  RRPs are only fixed until a price increase is announced, and you've only sold the entire run because you deliberately created a false market scarcity by taking orders you never intended to fill, which generates demand for the next batch; the first release of the W4 Peckett was probably not marketed in this way but may have influenced what H are doing now.  I'd say this is manipulating the market.

 

This is how  the market is, in my opinion, being cleverly and mendaciously manipulated,  I seem to recall that H have invoked the Covid epidemic as one of the reasons behind the move, and frankly this is nonsense; I predicted that firms would do this over a year ago when the first lockdowns started (don't ask me where, my memory's not that good, probably in the now-closed original lockdown thread on Wheeltappers).  In fact, production in China was not much affected by the outbreak there, though a container shortage, problems with Brexit, and the Ever Given incident have all delayed shipping. 

 

Delays are not the same thing as deliberate underproduction and taking orders you have no intention of honouring, as the full amount of your order eventually arrives, albeit late. and at a probably higher cost.  It sounds to me (again, I am not attempting to claim that this is any sort of established fact) that H are bringing this up to divert attention, and if they are, I am not fooled and suggest, respecfully of course, that nobody else should be either. 

 

I am always suspicious of the motives of people who are trying to make a profit by selling me things, in a caveat emptor sort of approach.  I will, of course, continue to buy Hornby's products when I want them, think they are reasonable value for money, and can afford them, but do not expect any new products to interest me in the forseeable.  I am in the market for a Utility Van, when the pension next comes in, and if I can get one from my (probably Tier 2) dealer.  But if I'm undecided, then my dissapproval will very probably convince me that nobody in Margate needs any of my increasingly rare beer vouchers!

 

My wording clearly indicates that these comments are my opinions, not established facts, and perhaps you would be less confrontational where I am concerned if you bore this in mind.  I appreciate that being a mod may be frustrating and irritating at times, and of course you are at perfect liberty to disagree with me, but you might make your life less fraught in this way!

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38 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Because you have to agree the number over a year ahead. I know that products for 2023 are being scoped now. Not in 6 months or a years time. Now.

trying to read your mind for inside information........................

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34 minutes ago, CUCKOO LINE said:

This is pretty standard practice in most manufacturing industries. The supply chains need to know quite well in advance to plan their resources both machines and people. People and machines doing nothing create no income.

And agree numbers to be supplied

 

All the more curious then that on 2021 range launch Hornby appear to have accepted more orders than they could satisfy  and are now rationing , with huge impact on at least Tier 3 , but even up to Tier 1 as Gareth in Trains4U has not been immune to cancellations 

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It does seem strange that other people who source from China know what they are getting as far as we are aware, Bachmann, Heljan, Dapol, KR models, etc. Shouldn't,t be rocket science then to have a system to manage a.location as orders come in.

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52 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

The only benefit in doing what you imagine would be to increase sales (no need if you have sold the entire run) or to be able to sell at a higher price (you can't, the RRP is set) - so how is the market being manipulated? While you think about it, I'll don my tin foil hat.

 

I believe a certain Mr. Ferrari was famous for building one less than he could sell of a model.  Therefore if you can create a demand so that you sell out and don't have left over stock that is good for your balance sheet.  Those who manage to obtain the model  are happy because they have something that has more perceived value.  If you don't get that model you have the option of making your interest known earlier so you don't miss out next time.

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1 hour ago, JohnR said:

 

I still dont think we've seen the full impact of a run of Class 66's from Hornby last year expanding from 500 units to 3,500.  Something must have given way - even for the initial 500 unit run. 

Spite production gets priority, obviously!

 

John

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1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Looks to me like the the Local Model Shop is under even more threat now. Good or bad I don't know, but my experience of the local shop is the masses of useful bits that I doubt will ever be found on an Amazon Platform and the personal interaction?

P

Alas in some resects I fear you might be right Phil.  If - as Hornby like to see themselves and as many newcomers to model railways come via their route - then shops which have difficulty getting Hornby items to stock, especially items which are likely to be popular are going t be deserted n by newcomers.  that means teh newcomers will never encounter what else can be found and learnt in such shops and the retailer also loses sales.

 

In the 'I want it now' society it is all too easy to give up on a local retailer (when there is one) and go online and as Phil Parker pointed out previously lots of people seem not to understand that you can buy model railway items from places other than Amazon or Ebay.   The karma in all this is that one of the biggest deep discounting online sellers appears to be in the tier hardest hit by Hornby's tier system but of course the rabbit as long been out of the hat and Hattons will no doubt be big enough and bold enoughreposition themselves in a changed market.

 

But it is much more difficult for the smaller retailers to do that and what they really need is support from the likes of Hornby (in particular) and Bachmann plus the emrerging companies seeking to create retail networks for their products.

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1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Hornby.

 

"Visit the Hornby Store" just below the title.

 

 

Even if it was Amazon. How come Amazon have got items that some retailers haven't and can't get?

 

That's what is peeing people off, not that Amazon and Hornby are selling things. That we have had items cancelled and Hornby still have those items available, and other retailers haven't received any whilst "Bob in Milton Keynes" has them in stock because he has nice carpets.

 

 

Jason

Quite simply,

 

if it says, "Sold by Hornby and fulfilled by Amazon" it is stock owned by Hornby.

 

If it says, "Sold and despatched by Amazon" it is stock that Hornby have sold to Amazon. 

 

I may be getting an inkling as to where all the stuff Hatton's aren't going to be getting has probably ended up.

 

Still, it's nice to know that we can get big discounts by buying from Amazon rather than off Hornby's full RRP website.:)

 

John

 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Paul.Uni said:

So why does it say 'Dispatched from and sold by Amazon.' if it is being sold by Hornby.

 

However, Who is supplying Amazon? That is my main point. It must be coming from Hornby.

 

It does leave a nasty taste in the mouth when retailers are seemingly being punished for not being "bricks and mortar" shops and discounting when Amazon is receiving stock.

 

But not so nasty that I'm going to turn down the chance of cheaper models

 

It's everyone having a level playing field that I want. Cutting out the little guy when you are selling things to an organisation that has just spent about £10 Billion on MGM.

 

 

Jason

Edited by Steamport Southport
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Regards Hornby selling on Amazon, I bought the terrier linked to on the previous page last week as it was £64 delivered, even put a link to it in bargain hunters, not a model I particularly wanted or needed but at that price compared to most model shops including the biggies on line it was a no brainier, even got an Amazon warehouse maunsell brake coach to go with it for £24 

 

do I feel guilty buying it off Amazon, not at all!

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8 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

...

 

Still, it's nice to know that we can get big discounts by buying from Amazon rather than off Hornby's full RRP website.:)

 

...

 

 

 

Oliver Cromwell is begging to be purchased...

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3 hours ago, Ighten said:

 

Im not sure why you keep thinking this and repeating it - its not actually how it works - They dont buy and dont even employ buyers for most products- they approach and facilitate those who want to use them as warehousing services with shipping..

 

Heres an example of how the different wording on the right for distribution is a tool used by the vendor -- Same store in this case Hornby Store

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hornby-R3812-Steam-Locomotive/dp/B07X477PC7?ref_=ast_sto_dp

 

There are several others in the Hornby Store and several other differently named stores that technically when you click through to the  sometimes store dont really sell anything and at times allow themselves to be placed in a store zone.. Its how the vendor controls input and pricing/promotion and which algorithm is used if needed..

 

 

TBF to Hornby they need a solution to the China - Distribution - Production and Pandemic problems - the best thing that can happen is they get they go back to normal when production becomes the norm - And in a way this made sense until the part where they basically take offence at others manufacturing  or being in competition. Do they think that people will abandon the alternative product and the store just because it doesnt stock red boxes anymore because thats the dumbest thinking ever - it wont make competition go away.

 

 

Except that in this case the retailer is Train Stop. Clicking on their name gives you their feedback rating (92% — on the low side) and among a few positive comments there is this negative one: 

 

Very disappointed that you would acknowledge the order in advance confirm expected delivery date and then cancel much later with no explanation or alternative....


Sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it?

 

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1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Because you have to agree the number over a year ahead. I know that products for 2023 are being scoped now. Not in 6 months or a years time. Now.

So they know by the time of announcement exactly how many models they will have available for sale - simples.  It only then goes 'wrong' if what turns up comes with a load of problems that make it unfit for sale or the manufacturer short delivers.  So no need whatsoever for 'allocation' and cancellation of retailer orders - they simply sell what they expect to have delivered to sell and they don't take orders from retailers once they've sold what there is to sell.

 

Now they might well have to use the tier system to decide which retailers are going to be allowed to get a particular quantity (quite understandable when there is a fixed quantity) and they might well only accept orders in January on a provisional basis because they will then immediately be applying quantity & tier review before confirming how many they will supply.  But all of that is basically  simple stuff even when you're selling multiple lines and taking all the orders over the space of a couple of weeks because all it needs is very straightforward working procedures and the necessary IT.  ISO etc all the procedures to the relevant level, train your staff to work to those procedures, make sure your IT is up to the job  and away you go - all well within the sort of managerial practices and competencies that have been taught and expected for a good number of years past.

 

And never forget that key phrase coined by Tom Peters talking about quality management (albeit back a good few years now) - 'Under promise and over deliver'  (in order to delight your customers)

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I've just spent a while scrolling through what came up on Amazon when I just searched Hornby.

 

There are a few quite spectacular discounts (e.g. a Toad D brake for little more than half RRP) but, in most cases, the bulk of any saving I'd make would be because I'm a Prime subscriber and get free delivery....

 

John 

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8 hours ago, Trains4U said:

Lots of you are getting in a froth about how commissioned models might affect tiering decisions.

 

to quote Hornby’s press release:

 

Such Tier 3 designated retailers may also manufacture their own branded model railway items which might possibly conflict with those produced by Hornby Hobbies Ltd.

 

livery commissions are not own branded, they are clearly manufacturer branded, though may have some retailer branded packaging elements, such as a label or differently coloured box.

 

The KFA that I commissioned is exclusive to us, but not forever, and is in a Cavalex box

 

The HAA is a Cavalex model and branded as such

 

none of these examples contravene the statement above.

 

 

 

 

You may not think so (and nor do I). But what f Hornby decides arbitrarily that they do?

 

Or did you seek permission beforehand?

 

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8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

At last i’m not alone in this thread.

 

:D

 

I think that all of us are baffled by Hornby's behaviour.

 

Perhaps they are bothered about the audience ratings for the forthcoming TV series?

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26 pages  Hattons Bashing, Hornby Bashing.  Hornby seem to be in a sort of twilight world, a manufacturer with no manufacturing capability, and no bricks and mortar retail infrastructure and limited control over suppliers quality control, just a brand name.

What they need are dealers with staff who have advanced bodging skills who can fix models in house without returning them to HQ.      I guess from my own experience Hattons, Heljan and Dapol side step the warranty problems by getting on top of the quality control issues, but  to be honest I just expect to have to spend a couple of hours feettling any new Hornby loco before it runs decently.  But it's a good feeling when you've fixed it. A sense of involvement you miss when you buy a Hattons or Heljan loco which just runs brilliantly straight out of the box.   If Hormby started manufacturing in the UK again they could getthe lads to do a bit of overtime if they had a few extra orders, or stop making them when they had a warehouse full of Yellow class 31s no one wants.

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5 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

Well where I worked (British Gas) when things went wrong we (well I - it was part of my job) actually went to visit affected customers and told them the truth face to face - good or bad. When we messed up (and we did now ang again, sometimes big style) I found honesty, apologies and more over ACTION sorted it out.

 

Sorry - Hornby is hiding behind corporate speak / customer unfriendly actions. They have problems.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

Of course, Hornby is far from unusual in this. Proper customer service is now as about as common as hen's teeth. I am in dispute with various utilities companies at the moment. They send me loads of e-mails but make it very hard to reply.

 

But I suppose that if you are involved in a business where you can blow peoples' houses out of the ground, you need a higher standard and a willingness to admit to your c*ck-ups.

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This whole situation raises serious questions of trust in Hornby. OK, they've possibly been forced into this by not getting the full quantity they ordered from the factories, but it's not clear that even Tier 1 dealers can rely on getting full deliveries.

 

I wonder in what Tier the actual manufacturers place Hornby?:devil:

 

It's not a new issue, though, for probably the last 15 years, my local dealer (now retired) consistently received a fraction of what he'd ordered in terms of new releases. Despite my usually being very early to pre-order, I missed out on a number of items and had to scrabble around the internet to get things. It got to the stage where I was double ordering with him and Hatton's to be on the safe side. Where Hatton's delivered first he was, on a couple of occasions, quite happy for me to give up my place in the queue so he didn't have to disappoint another regular customer. 

 

John

 

 

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25 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:
2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Because you have to agree the number over a year ahead. I know that products for 2023 are being scoped now. Not in 6 months or a years time. Now.

So they know by the time of announcement exactly how many models they will have available for sale - simples.  It only then goes 'wrong' if what turns up comes with a load of problems that make it unfit for sale or the manufacturer short delivers.  So no need whatsoever for 'allocation' and cancellation of retailer orders - they simply sell what they expect to have delivered to sell and they don't take orders from retailers once they've sold what there is to sell.

 

It can also go wrong (from the point of view of the retailer and purchaser) if Hornby under order leaving pre-orders unfulfillable - as they did with the Rocket train packs last year for example.

 

It'd be interesting to hear the thoughts of the likes of Rapido on the flexibility of factories to expand production on the basis of larger than expected pre-orders.  Rapido own their own factories and manufacture what's been pre-ordered with a few extras and spare parts on top.

 

 

Steven B.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Steven B said:

 

 

It can also go wrong (from the point of view of the retailer and purchaser) if Hornby under order leaving pre-orders unfulfillable - as they did with the Rocket train packs last year for example.

 

It'd be interesting to hear the thoughts of the likes of Rapido on the flexibility of factories to expand production on the basis of larger than expected pre-orders.  Rapido own their own factories and manufacture what's been pre-ordered with a few extras and spare parts on top.

 

 

Steven B.

 

 

But did they order Rocket train packs from the factory after they received retailer orders or did they know a year or two in advance how many they would be getting?

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4 hours ago, jonnyuk said:

why? Hornby can sell to whom ever they want, rightly or wrongly. Some are missing that point. 

 

Restraint of trade is not an area of law that I am that good on.

 

But I reckon that cbrooks is perhaps nearer to the truth than you are.

 

What is certain is that Hornby made contracts in 2020 and that they are in breach of those contracts now. This could get very expensive for Hornby - like bye-bye expensive. The lack of comment from those most affected may be a telling sign.

 

If you are "tier 3", I think that the course of action is clear.

 

"Tier 2" a bit less certain. But if you were Tier 2, would you want to be trying to run a business with such an unclear supply situation? I don't see how you can function like that.  

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