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Hornby model shop Tiers system


Phil Parker
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1 hour ago, Paul.Uni said:

 

Hornby.

 

"Visit the Hornby Store" just below the title.

 

 

Even if it was Amazon. How come Amazon have got items that some retailers haven't and can't get?

 

That's what is peeing people off, not that Amazon and Hornby are selling things. That we have had items cancelled and Hornby still have those items available, and other retailers haven't received any whilst "Bob in Milton Keynes" has them in stock because he has nice carpets.

 

 

Jason

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5 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

You make it sound so easy Steven.  Just supposing that the factory could just add in another 500 units to the production run - which in itself does not sound straightforward from all of the messages coming out of China - you then have to source all of the items needed for that run.  Some I suspect are easy ( a few more bags of plastic granules to feed an injection moulding machine) others may be more problematic (motors although multi-purpose and ostensibly in wide supply might not be so easily available for this specific model requiring a very small but powerful unit and chips for DCC units might be a complete no-no).

Agree absolutely - once a run is ordered it could be hellish difficult to change it especially to increase it.  But that immediately begs a further question - if Hornby had ordered, say, 2,000 why had they seemingly accepted orders for more than 2000 because they would surely have only cancelled retaier orders if they had previously accepted them.  If supply is limited surely you would limit how many orders you accept in the first place (and deciding which orders to accept etc would, to soem extent, be aided by a tier system of course)?  Or does the quantity being supplied have no bearing on the number one sells?

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Just now, Steamport Southport said:

 

Hornby.

 

"Visit the Hornby Store" just below the title.

 

 

Even if it was Amazon. How come Amazon have got items that some retailers haven't and can't get?

 

That's what is peeing people off, not that Amazon and Hornby are selling things. That we have had items cancelled and Hornby still have those items available, and other retailers haven't received any whilst "Bob in Milton Keynes" has them in stock because he has nice carpets.

 

 

Jason

Simple question in that context - does any Tier 1 retailer you know of happen to have those models?

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Looks to me like the the Local Model Shop is under even more threat now. Good or bad I don't know, but my experience of the local shop is the masses of useful bits that I doubt will ever be found on an Amazon Platform and the personal interaction?

P

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Steven B said:

 

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the meetings between the sales and production teams. Take last year's release of Rocket. If you had pre-orders from shops for say 2500 models but had initially only planned to make 2000 why would you not extend the production run to accommodate the increased, guarantee, sales?

your assuming the factory does every job end to end.
 

Most factories don't make motors, they buy them in.
Many buy wheels from one large wheel maker, who operates 24/7 automated pressing coach and wagon wheels for everyone and his dog. (Can you think of a more boring job than pressing wheels onto axles all day ?).., theres a video on here somewhere of that.

 

Metal pressed parts may come from elsewhere.

Those chassis castings could be cast from crucibles in remote places.

 

The “factory” that brings it altogether, with the plastic, assembly, painting and boxing... might take a year to do so, and has to plan it, so they don’t end up sitting on 2500 motors waiting 9 months for the chassis to arrive.

 

Simply Adding 500 might take another year, and on its own might not be worth it in its own right... it might need to wait until an order of 5000 motors for use on several other different customer projects arrives next year for instance.

 

Theres a lot of logistics, i would imagine the build up to starting finally assembly of a model batch is an exciting time.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Hornby.

 

"Visit the Hornby Store" just below the title.

 

 

Even if it was Amazon. How come Amazon have got items that some retailers haven't and can't get?

 

That's what is peeing people off, not that Amazon and Hornby are selling things. That we have had items cancelled and Hornby still have those items available, and other retailers haven't received any whilst "Bob in Milton Keynes" has them in stock because he has nice carpets.

 

 

Jason

 

If it was Hornby selling the item, Amazon would clearly indicate that it was Hornby selling it, rather than themselves. The "Hornby Store"  that you see is simply a website front end for Amazon. They have others for other brands (eg HP and Apple). I've clicked through the Hornby Store on several different items, and have yet to find any listed that are "Sold by X, fulfilled by Amazon" or "Sold and fulfilled by Y" - they are all sold by Amazon as their own stock.

 

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21 minutes ago, jonnyuk said:

but they are not a "proper shop" anymore, is that not the point?

 

Have you even visited? Or is this just made up "facts"

 

In what way are they not a proper shop. They have more on display than 99% of "proper model shops". They even have boxes of pre-owned tat on the floor like other model shops. If you ask at the till they will sell you things.

 

You obviously have some kind of problem with Hattons. Every single post is a dig at Hattons,

 

Give it a rest as you just sound like a broken record....

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9 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Simple question in that context - does any Tier 1 retailer you know of happen to have those models?

 

No idea as all my pre-orders were for things that haven't came out yet.

 

2MTs, GWR Terrier, etc.

 

But If they appear on Amazon and on the Hornby website then we'll get an answer.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Have you even visited? Or is this just made up "facts"

 

In what way are they not a proper shop. They have more on display than 99% of "proper model shops". They even have boxes of pre-owned tat on the floor like other model shops. If you ask at the till they will sell you things.

 

You obviously have some kind of problem with Hattons. Every single post is a dig at Hattons,

 

Give it a rest as you just sound like a broken record....

This whole thread is about broken records so maybe we should all give it a rest.

Edited by jonnyuk
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I think H are accepting orders that they know they can't meet to stimulate the market as a sales technique; creating a shortage to generate the concept that the model is of a higher value and thus more desirable.  Accepting orders you know you can't meet and then penalising the dealers and their customers is mendacious to say the least, and is clearly an attempt to control and manipulate the normal functioning of a free market.  Shame on them.

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1 hour ago, Steven B said:

If you had pre-orders from shops for say 2500 models but had initially only planned to make 2000 why would you not extend the production run to accommodate the increased, guarantee, sales?

 

Because you have to agree the number over a year ahead. I know that products for 2023 are being scoped now. Not in 6 months or a years time. Now.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Simple question in that context - does any Tier 1 retailer you know of happen to have those models?

Ahhhh...

 

really good point... just out last week...

 

7D39474F-27BB-4058-B047-D6736D44C494.jpeg.3273c934bc1c22375266bdffd0c77984.jpeg


 

Not in stock at Amazon, but it is via Amazon, for Gaugemaster, CMC and Jadlam.

 

now go onto Google,..

 

Not in stock at a number of shops...indeed most shops !

But it is in stock at several others, one shop is advertising 19 in stock... and has for a few days.

 

it is in Stock at Hornby.com.

 

Do I need to be worried about missing out ?...

 

is this Tiering in motion ?

 

Has Tier 1 got it, but Tier 2&3 have not ? - How do I know, I dont know who’s in what tier..

Should I buy now ?

Should I wait to see if my retailer gets it ?

What if my pre-ordered retailer hasnt got it, hasnt got enough ?

 

Is it still coming to some other retailers or should I be panicing ?

Should I order this now and cancel my pre-order with my retailer before its too late  ?


it might just be a 31.. but the W1 is coming ?

 

Edited by adb968008
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1 minute ago, The Johnster said:

I think H are accepting orders that they know they can't meet to stimulate the market as a sales technique; creating a shortage to generate the concept that the model is of a higher value and thus more desirable.  Accepting orders you know you can't meet and then penalising the dealers and their customers is mendacious to say the least, and is clearly an attempt to control and manipulate the normal functioning of a free market.  Shame on them.

 

The only benefit in doing what you imagine would be to increase sales (no need if you have sold the entire run) or to be able to sell at a higher price (you can't, the RRP is set) - so how is the market being manipulated? While you think about it, I'll don my tin foil hat.

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Out of pure idle curiosity,I’ve just trawled through Amazon’s Hornby website. Nothing available there atm that’s not elsewhere..including some stuff that dates back quite a few years apart from new releases.Thane of Fife is now back on at full rrp.There are one or two good buys.So nothing to get excited about 

 

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2 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Because you have to agree the number over a year ahead. I know that products for 2023 are being scoped now. Not in 6 months or a years time. Now.

This is pretty standard practice in most manufacturing industries. The supply chains need to know quite well in advance to plan their resources both machines and people. People and machines doing nothing create no income.

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2 minutes ago, CUCKOO LINE said:

This is pretty standard practice in most manufacturing industries. The supply chains need to know quite well in advance to plan their resources both machines and people. People and machines doing nothing create no income.

 

In which case, Hornby ought to know fairly quickly after retailers place their orders in January how much they are able to supply. 

 

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7 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Ahhhh...

 

really good point... just out last week...

 

7D39474F-27BB-4058-B047-D6736D44C494.jpeg.3273c934bc1c22375266bdffd0c77984.jpeg


 

Not in stock at Amazon, but it is via Amazon, for Gaugemaster, CMC and Jadlam.

 

now go onto Google,..

 

Not in stock at a number of shops.

But it is in stock at several others, one shop is advertising 19 in stock.

 

it is in Stock at Hornby.com.

 

Do I need to be worried about missing out ?...

 

is this Tiering in motion ?

Should I buy now ?

Should I wait ?

 

Is it still coming to some retailers or should I be panicing ?


And Bure Valley Models trumps that at £161.99 post free

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13 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Ahhhh...

 

really good point... just out last week...

 

7D39474F-27BB-4058-B047-D6736D44C494.jpeg.3273c934bc1c22375266bdffd0c77984.jpeg


 

Not in stock at Amazon, but it is via Amazon, for Gaugemaster, CMC and Jadlam.

 

now go onto Google,..

 

Not in stock at a number of shops...indeed most shops !

But it is in stock at several others, one shop is advertising 19 in stock... and has for a few days.

 

it is in Stock at Hornby.com.

 

Do I need to be worried about missing out ?...

 

is this Tiering in motion ?

 

Has Tier 1 got it, but Tier 2&3 have not ? - How do I know, I dont know who’s in what tier..

Should I buy now ?

Should I wait to see if my retailer gets it ?

What if my pre-ordered retailer hasnt got it, hasnt got enough ?

 

Is it still coming to some other retailers or should I be panicing ?

Should I order this now and cancel my pre-order with my retailer before its too late  ?


it might just be a 31.. but the W1 is coming ?

 

 

 

Err, we have it in stock, l am saying that, we are closed today. Would need to check it hasn’t already sold out.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

In which case, Hornby ought to know fairly quickly after retailers place their orders in January how much they are able to supply. 

 

Most industries I would have thought of would do, if they ordered 1000 from a supplier they would expect 1000 good ones, if not there are often then penalty clauses and firm discussions. 

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:


And Bure Valley Models trumps that at £161.99 post free

In reality, I trust my supplier. (i know .. he’s watching me).

 

However many people out there, myself included, for many other shops where I have ordered, I just wont know.

I have canceled some orders (several ‘k of orders), as I just don't know and I've little alternative to just give up and cancel some plans, rather than risk to buy whole sets of coaches (91,APT, HST etc ) and find myself in a place of being missing vital parts of a set, like a loco or a DVT etc.

Now conversely

 

We know theres a limit to supply.

We know not all shops are getting this.

We also know theres some big ticket high demand items coming down the road.

 

thats music festival syndrome..

That to me sets up a scalpers and touts paradise..  order 2 each from 10 Tier 1 shops you've got 20 models that you can project may lift way above RRP and put us to misery on ebay...

if only models had POS Barcode registration numbers for warranty.. it would take some of that pain away...it’d not be new any longer and your scalpers would be outed... but in doing so, it limits the temptation for market forces to push up prices, and then justifies a price hike in 2022.

 

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

The only benefit in doing what you imagine would be to increase sales (no need if you have sold the entire run) or to be able to sell at a higher price (you can't, the RRP is set) - so how is the market being manipulated? While you think about it, I'll don my tin foil hat.

 

Well, Phil, it looks to me as if H are knowingly accepting orders that they are fully aware that they cannot meet, and have no intention of meeting.  This is manipulative and mendacious, but of course I am only saying that I think, suspect, that this is what is happening and not claiming it to be a fact; my first two words were 'I think...'.  No need for tinfoil hats yet.  If H can create a situation where demand exceeds supply for a product and the market is aware of this, the product's desirablitiy increases and so does the market price as people sell on models they have acquired on the 'Bay for more than the retail price.  Hornby are then justified in increasing the price, and will rake in profits as the costs of producing the model have not increased though the price has.  RRPs are only fixed until a price increase is announced, and you've only sold the entire run because you deliberately created a false market scarcity by taking orders you never intended to fill, which generates demand for the next batch; the first release of the W4 Peckett was probably not marketed in this way but may have influenced what H are doing now.  I'd say this is manipulating the market.

 

This is how  the market is, in my opinion, being cleverly and mendaciously manipulated,  I seem to recall that H have invoked the Covid epidemic as one of the reasons behind the move, and frankly this is nonsense; I predicted that firms would do this over a year ago when the first lockdowns started (don't ask me where, my memory's not that good, probably in the now-closed original lockdown thread on Wheeltappers).  In fact, production in China was not much affected by the outbreak there, though a container shortage, problems with Brexit, and the Ever Given incident have all delayed shipping. 

 

Delays are not the same thing as deliberate underproduction and taking orders you have no intention of honouring, as the full amount of your order eventually arrives, albeit late. and at a probably higher cost.  It sounds to me (again, I am not attempting to claim that this is any sort of established fact) that H are bringing this up to divert attention, and if they are, I am not fooled and suggest, respecfully of course, that nobody else should be either. 

 

I am always suspicious of the motives of people who are trying to make a profit by selling me things, in a caveat emptor sort of approach.  I will, of course, continue to buy Hornby's products when I want them, think they are reasonable value for money, and can afford them, but do not expect any new products to interest me in the forseeable.  I am in the market for a Utility Van, when the pension next comes in, and if I can get one from my (probably Tier 2) dealer.  But if I'm undecided, then my dissapproval will very probably convince me that nobody in Margate needs any of my increasingly rare beer vouchers!

 

My wording clearly indicates that these comments are my opinions, not established facts, and perhaps you would be less confrontational where I am concerned if you bore this in mind.  I appreciate that being a mod may be frustrating and irritating at times, and of course you are at perfect liberty to disagree with me, but you might make your life less fraught in this way!

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38 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Because you have to agree the number over a year ahead. I know that products for 2023 are being scoped now. Not in 6 months or a years time. Now.

trying to read your mind for inside information........................

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34 minutes ago, CUCKOO LINE said:

This is pretty standard practice in most manufacturing industries. The supply chains need to know quite well in advance to plan their resources both machines and people. People and machines doing nothing create no income.

And agree numbers to be supplied

 

All the more curious then that on 2021 range launch Hornby appear to have accepted more orders than they could satisfy  and are now rationing , with huge impact on at least Tier 3 , but even up to Tier 1 as Gareth in Trains4U has not been immune to cancellations 

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It does seem strange that other people who source from China know what they are getting as far as we are aware, Bachmann, Heljan, Dapol, KR models, etc. Shouldn't,t be rocket science then to have a system to manage a.location as orders come in.

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