Hornby model shop Tiers system

[New Haven Neil]

As we didn't fit in to any of those tiers, I'm glad we're out of that particular crock of red cardboard!

[ruggedpeak]

1 minute ago, Fireline said:

While I can understand Hornby's being less than supportive of shops that are trying to compete with them as manufacturers too, I can't help but feel that no-one at Hornby talked to an actual modeller before this decision was made. Am I the only one that delights in those poorly laid out shops, with items all over the place, that invariably yield the gems you've been looking for for ages, but never been able to get? Those shops usually have the most knowledgeable owners and staff, too....

Love a proper model, book and related specialist retailers and always make a point of buying stuff in them. Not everything but never leave empty handed. Quite a few don't have webstores and yes, I know that they are the best places to find stuff that internet says is sold out.

 

I assume between Lyndon and Simon they have a rough idea about modellers and shops??

 

 

 

[3rd Rail Exile]

4 minutes ago, Fireline said:

While I can understand Hornby's being less than supportive of shops that are trying to compete with them as manufacturers too, I can't help but feel that no-one at Hornby talked to an actual modeller before this decision was made. Am I the only one that delights in those poorly laid out shops, with items all over the place, that invariably yield the gems you've been looking for for ages, but never been able to get? Those shops usually have the most knowledgeable owners and staff, too....

I'm sure that a lot of RMWeb members enjoy rummaging around in that sort of shop, but what proportion of Hornby's target market do we actually constitute?   I suspect that they assume (rightly or wrongly) that we know what we want to buy from their range and will find a way to buy it.  It's the "I'm not sure what I actually want" sector that will appreciate well laid-out shops and helpful staff and (presumably) result in increased sales. 

[AY Mod]

10 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Hmm, a bit of a blow for heritage railways and preservation stockists, who certainly won't be stocking Scalextric and most likely not a full range of airfix.

 

Being Tier 2 as a museum or heritage railway doesn't necessarily disadvantage them in any terms, it's just a different classification. A heritage railway is unlikely to stock Scalextric and an aviation museum is unlikely to stock Hornby; that's all. Talk of relegation or promotion between 'divisions' is therefore meaningless but it could be decided that a business is Tier 1 or Tier 3.

[sparky66]

I'm reminded of a conversation I had a few years ago with the owner of a small, now closed, model shop. Moaning about manufacturers (Not just Hornby) forcing him to take stuff he didn't want in order to secure the stuff he did want and taking up valuable space in his small shop. Scalextric in particular being an annoyance as apparently to secure some Hornby stock he had to take some large Scalextric sets which took up a ton of space and didn't sell in his model railway focussed shop. It may well have been the ramblings of a disorganised old man though, I was just a customer asking if he had a certain loco as finding stuff in that shop could be a nightmare XD.

[The Stationmaster]

51 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Branches of banks are owned by the Banks themselves.

 

I see this shrinking Hornby's retail network further.

 

The prognosis for a Tier 3 isnt good, if all they get is the dregs no one wants.

Should a shop drop from Tier 1 to Tier 2, they will presumably lose much ability to pre-sale, thats a premier league relegation.

 

it also poses a significant barrier to entry for the market, any new retailer will need to invest a significantly higher amount to gain Tier 3 status...isnt this how cartels are formed.?
 

That leaves Hornby.com battling it out online with its Tier 1’s, and increasingly Amazon.

 

I can certainly think of 4 Tier1 shops which manufacturer rtr, whats the criteria for competing with Hornby.

 

In respect of your closing question - Simples - making a Class 66 and Generic 4 wheel coaches (even if in reality Hornby happened to cash in on both of those ideas, just as they did with The Rails/NRM Terrier)

[ruggedpeak]

7 minutes ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

I'm sure that a lot of RMWeb members enjoy rummaging around in that sort of shop, but what proportion of Hornby's target market do we actually constitute?   I suspect that they assume (rightly or wrongly) that we know what we want to buy from their range and will find a way to buy it.  It's the "I'm not sure what I actually want" sector that will appreciate well laid-out shops and helpful staff and (presumably) result in increased sales. 

Hours of debate and retail experience to go into that one. Supermarkets understand this to the enth (??) degree for everything on their shelves, yet AFAIK nobody has any real insight in the world of model shops?

 

2 minutes ago, sparky66 said:

I'm reminded of a conversation I had a few years ago with the owner of a small, now closed, model shop. Moaning about manufacturers (Not just Hornby) forcing him to take stuff he didn't want in order to secure the stuff he did want and taking up valuable space in his small shop. Scalextric in particular being an annoyance as apparently to secure some Hornby stock he had to take some large Scalextric sets which took up a ton of space and didn't sell in his model railway focussed shop. It may well have been the ramblings of a disorganised old man though, I was just a customer asking if he had a certain loco as finding stuff in that shop could be a nightmare XD.

Entirely normal in the the retail trade, suppliers forcing weaker retailers to 'absorb' slow moving stock etc. Not just models. Learnt that the hard way when I had sales people in another sector offering me 'amazing deals' on things that i eventually realised were clogging up their warehouse, and then clogged up my stockroom and balance sheet.....

 

Look carefully in some indies and you may notice a surprising number of trainsets lurking, even though how many of us 'modellers' buy trains sets? Bet quite a few have been there a long time.....

[GNR Dave]

28 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Hmm, a bit of a blow for heritage railways and preservation stockists, who certainly won't be stocking Scalextric and most likely not a full range of airfix. How many recent models have relied upon measurements from those very heritage facilities....

Very true, but I'll bet Hornby will make exceptions to their tier system if they think it will benefit their bottom line.

[Downer]

Does this statement provide any clarity when it comes to the issue of pre-ordering? If we the customers are being told that the security of our pre-orders increases the higher the tier our chosen vendor is in, then surely we need to be told which shops are in which tiers. 
 

[LimboBrit]

Maybe it's an over simplification but let's assume that there are two types of Hornby customer, the hardened model railway enthusiast, who might be inclined to pre-order a model as soon as it is announced, and the casual Christmas/birthday gift buyer. The former will want to know which retailers are in which tier so that their pre-orders have a high chance of being honoured and not cancelled more than a year later and thereby possibly missing out. In addition they will continue to want to support their favourite model shops. The latter will be oblivious to Hornby's sales strategy and buy whatever is available and wherever it is available at the time. My guess is that the casual purchaser's first port of call will be internet and never set foot inside a model shop to find out how well goods are presented. If Hornby makes life difficult for model shops with their Ts & Cs and/or fail to clarify which tiers businesses are in, they could just end up doing a disservice to die hard railway modellers.

[APOLLO]

It's time we, the customer, formed our own tier system and support the local model shop where possible.

 

Tier One - Visit and buy from your local model shop (if your lucky enough to have one nearby)

Tier Two-  Buy from model shops via mail order / phone (or even there ebay shops)

Tier Three - Buy from the big box shifters via mail order / phone

Tier Four - ebay

Tier Five - Amazon

 

Non stop tears - Buy from Gostude on ebay !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (Yes I did buy from him once and really did get a bargain - a rare one off !!)

 

I will continue to buy the odd Hornby / Bachmann product (concentrating now on my American O gauge). I will NOT jump through hoops and every item has a price for which I am prepared to pay, Sadly for me RRP is now just far to high personally for OO models (all manufacturers).

 

It's mostly Tier Four for me these days - I can get the occasional O gauge item from model shops as well as private sellers on ebay - just bought last night an as new Atlas Caboose for £34 - (retail near £100) from one such ebay shop. Lots of model for the price.

 

Brit15

[woodenhead]

41 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

In respect of your closing question - Simples - making a Class 66 and Generic 4 wheel coaches (even if in reality Hornby happened to cash in on both of those ideas, just as they did with The Rails/NRM Terrier)

Which in this case was - make Hattons a competitor by copying what they do!!

 

Talk about fixing the market.

[ruggedpeak]

13 minutes ago, Downer said:

Does this statement provide any clarity when it comes to the issue of pre-ordering? If we the customers are being told that the security of our pre-orders increases the higher the tier our chosen vendor is in, then surely we need to be told which shops are in which tiers. 
 

That's the bit they don't want to discuss.....

[zigzag]

Give me an Aladins cave type shop over a chrome, glass and spotlights shop everyday of the week

 

 

[amwells]

2 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

That's the bit they don't want to discuss.....

But presume by going public then they must be happy for retailers to now go public?

[Kris]

1 hour ago, G-BOAF said:

Hmm, a bit of a blow for heritage railways and preservation stockists, who certainly won't be stocking Scalextric and most likely not a full range of airfix. How many recent models have relied upon measurements from those very heritage facilities....

I suspect that that for most heritage railways the main sales in their shops are tourist sales or casual ad hoc purchasers. I also suspect that they generally have very few pre orders (I'm not say they won't have any). As such they will still get the same or a similar level of sales its just that they might not have the "latest and greatest" model but for most (note I'm not saying all) of their customers this will be acceptable. 

[GreenGiraffe22]

3 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 The Tier 3 store, if there is one may also be poorly laid out, untidy and consequently uninviting.

 

 

Wow, claws out, that whole paragraph is a whole lot of saying it without saying it dig at some retailers, I think we can all read between the lines.

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, amwells said:

But presume by going public then they must be happy for retailers to now go public?

 

Now this is in the public domain (which is why we took the action we did) there should be no problem with a retailer advising a customer what tier they're in - if they wish to.

[JSpencer]

26 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

Non stop tears - Buy from Gostude on ebay !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (Yes I did buy from him once and really did get a bargain - a rare one off !!)

 

 

FWIW I've used Gostude (amongst  others) a few times and very happy with the service.

[Downer]

Will Hornby reps be using damp fingers to check shop shelves for dust?

[PhilH]

32 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

It's time we, the customer, formed our own tier system and support the local model shop where possible.

 

Tier One - Visit and buy from your local model shop (if your lucky enough to have one nearby)

Tier Two-  Buy from model shops via mail order / phone (or even there ebay shops)

Tier Three - Buy from the big box shifters via mail order / phone

Tier Four - ebay

Tier Five - Amazon

 

Non stop tears - Buy from Gostude on ebay !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (Yes I did buy from him once and really did get a bargain - a rare one off !!)

 

I will continue to buy the odd Hornby / Bachmann product (concentrating now on my American O gauge). I will NOT jump through hoops and every item has a price for which I am prepared to pay, Sadly for me RRP is now just far to high personally for OO models (all manufacturers).

 

It's mostly Tier Four for me these days - I can get the occasional O gauge item from model shops as well as private sellers on ebay - just bought last night an as new Atlas Caboose for £34 - (retail near £100) from one such ebay shop. Lots of model for the price.

 

Brit15

 

As alluded to the problem for a lot of people is in the phrase 'local model shop'.

 

At a time when apparently bricks and mortar model shops are struggling and closing down I would have thought that anything a manufacturer can do to support any business that wants to sell their products, even if there are supply difficulties, would be advantageous in the long run. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by PhilH

[Cor-onGRT4]

3 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

Such Tier 3 designated retailers may also manufacture their own branded model railway items which might possibly conflict with those produced by Hornby Hobbies Ltd. 

I think all other arguments Hornby have in Tier 1&2 are additional, because the possible conflict whith their own production plans are their main arguments for this new rules, so 1&2 are mostly rubish to say so.

Rails has banned before, because they made models that conflicted Hornby's, now it is Hattons who conflicted Hornby's, who's next Kernow?

They have two bricks and mortar shops, but also a new wharehouse and release their own developed models, so conflict Hornby's.

I like to go to an brick and mortar shop, but living in the Netherlands with several other british railway modellers, it would mean we have to take a plane and other transport to  reach  british modelrailwaystores, if we are alloud to do in future, and maybe if B.J. have new rules to enter the UK an visa as well. 

So visit a bricks and mortar shop is not in the planning.

Maybe if i would have an private jet it would have been easier, but i don't.

So Hattons , Rails and Kernow is for the most of us the main suppliers.

Many of the brick and mortar shops did'nt even shipped to outside the UK, and after Brexit more have ceased this option because all of the custom rules.

So mainly, customers outside the UK don't need a brick and mortar shop, not saying they have to dissapear , but just to show there are others 

who cannot visit one and for them an brick and mortar is not necessary.

So this argument of Hornby new tiers is unrealistic.

But if they excluded Hattons for new releases and only they get the crumbs, maybe Hattons will develope more new models on their own,

with a result a greater competion whit Hornby, eventually Hornby shoots hisself in their toe.

Look at Hattons genesis coaches and compare with Hornby, and take your own conclussions, I made mine and Hattons in favour.   

[Karl]

My biggest disappointment in this is that it appears to have been put in retrospectively to all items not yet delivered not just from now. So orders for items from the Jan 2020 that people thought they had secured have now been lost at some retailers with no guarantee that other shops will have any left as numerous items have sold out to pre-order.

[oleander]

Are Horby going to be to put up a list on there website showing what shops are in what Tier?

Will Tier one shops get stickers for there windows etc. 

It will be intresting when people phone up model shops to pre order 2022 items. Hello what Tier are you ? The reply the shop gives could very well decied if they get that pre order. 
How many of us would have ordered a W1 or APT from a Tier 2 or 3 shop now we the Tier system .

 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

In respect of your closing question - Simples - making a Class 66 and Generic 4 wheel coaches (even if in reality Hornby happened to cash in on both of those ideas, just as they did with The Rails/NRM Terrier)

How about CDAs, HAAs, and an LSWR brake van ?