Would a SECR D class ever have been seen pulling non bogie coaches in 1907?

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Hi guys, 

 

I'm looking for an excuse to run some Hattons genesis SECR coaches behind my D class, are there any accounts of such a thing happening?

 

thanks,

 

 

Douglas

[Wickham Green too]

There were plenty of six-wheelers still in front-line use on the S.E.C.R. in 1907 .............. but no generic ones !

[Compound2632]

I'm no expert on SE&CR carriages - there's a definitive book out there - but corridor carriages were only just starting to come into general use in the first decade of the 20th century. Most passenger trains - all but the very top expresses - would be formed of non-corridor carriages. (Of course the ds started out as top express engines...)

 

When and which services first saw corridor carriages on the SE&CR?

[J. S. Bach]

Does it really matter? It is YOUR railroad and if you like the image of your D pulling SECR coaches, go for it; maybe even BR MK1s!   One really does not have to be era-specific

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by J. S. Bach
to do a minor edit.

[pete_mcfarlane]

36 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

When and which services first saw corridor carriages on the SE&CR?

Apart from a handful of coaches built for through services to the North and some Pullman/Club trains, the first real use of gangway fitted corridor coaches was the 'Continental' stock for boat trains from about 1921. This was quite late. The original driver for building gangwayed coaches was to allow access to the dining car on long distance services so you didn't have to stop the train for lunch. The SECR (and LBSC) had a slightly different model where the 'dining car' was a Pullman which you paid extra to sit on for the entire journey. So less need for gangways. 

 

As for the original question, the book  'South Eastern and Chatham Railway Album' has quite a few photos of 6 wheelers in expresses in 1900-1910ish, behind D class and other 4-4-0s. Some of the SER built 6 wheelers seem to have been really nice vehicles to travel in, the LCDR ones less so. 

 

No 4 wheelers though - they'd be confined to suburban services. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by pete_mcfarlane

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Apart from a handful of coaches built for through services to the North and some Pullman/Club trains, the first real use of gangway fitted corridor coaches was the 'Continental' stock for boat trains from about 1921. This was quite late. The original driver for building gangwayed coaches was to allow access to the dining car on long distance services so you didn't have to stop the train for lunch. The SECR (and LBSC) had a slightly different model where the 'dining car' was a Pullman which you paid extra to sit on for the entire journey. So less need for gangways. 

 

On the LNWR, the idea of dining saloon sittings was there from the beginning, so when the Preston dining stop was cut out on the afternoon Anglo-Scottish express in 1892/3, corridor carriages were immediately called for - hence the famous 2pm 'Corridor'. In contrast, when the Midland put dining carriages on the equivalent Scotch express - 1:30 pm from St Pancras and Glasgow, 1:20pm from Edinburgh (IIRC) - the intention was that dining passengers would travel all the way in the dining carriage. Thus it was not until 1899 that corridor carriages appeared on the Midland Scotch expresses.

[Edwardian]

If we're talking about the Wainwright livery D, non-corridor bogies would be more appropriate.  Ideally one of the boat trains or car trains. Good luck with that.

 

In RTR terms, I think the Bachmann 60' Birdcages would be a good bet (but as first released in lake, not in Brown Windsor Soup, sorry, Wellington Brown). These date from 1912. So far as I can tell, Ds only started to go into the simplified lined green livery from March 1911.  so, you have a brief period of overlap when that loco in that livery and those coaches in that livery could have co-existed. 

 

I have no idea whether a D would have hauled this stock, but other than the dedicated stock for boat trains and such, the 60' 3-sets would presumably have been reasonably prestigious when new and, particularly given the introduction of the E Class in the meantime, I would not have thought pairing the Bachmann coaches with a D too improbable.

 

They will certainly be a better approximation of what the Ds might have hauled than the generic 6-wheelers.    

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Apart from a handful of coaches built for through services to the North and some Pullman/Club trains, the first real use of gangway fitted corridor coaches was the 'Continental' stock for boat trains from about 1921.........

The 'vestibuled' bi- and tri-compo brakes were built in 1907 so they would just fit the original question ....... then there was one further build of corridor vehicles before the 1921 'Continentals' : six flush-sided Thirds were built in 1920 - they could be mistaken for later 'Thanets', low-window Maunsells or even 'Ironclads' !

[The Lurker]

the RAIB report of the Tonbridge crash of 1909 gives details of both trains, albeit that they were both pulled by E Class engines

 

 

 

The 8.30 train is reported as all stations beyond Tonbridge, so not particularly glamorous, and having run via Redhill, not on the fastest route. But you get a picture of bogie coaches, at least in this snapshot

[bbishop]

The 'D' class would have mainly hauled non vestibule  bogie stock until the introduction of the Thanet stock post grouping.  However there were workings on 4 and 6 wheel stock, which would be to haul empty commuter stock to/from sidings.  So the express loco into Cannon Street would couple to a suburban rake and haul in reverse to Maze Hill, Blackheath or wherever, shunt the stock then proceed light engine to Bricklayer Arms for turning etc.  Bill