Edwardian GWR turntable for Sherton Abbas

[Harlequin]

5 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

I did wonder whether to use the term 'outriggers' in the caption of this picture (same loco!), but I eventually chose 'outriders'. Is 'outriggers' an official or better term?

 

Look at the pressure the tender is putting on the loco! The rear springs are fully compressed and the coupling rod looks like it will hit the running plate if she tries to move forwards.

The coupling between tender and loco must have taken a lot of strain in this operation and

With the obvious practical and safety problems you can see why larger turntables were a much better solution.

 

 (Edit: Reconsidered my statement after thinking a bit more about what I was seeing...  The coupling rods being outside the running plate can probably move without fouling it and the springs don't look overly compressed.)

Edited June 1, 2021 by Harlequin
Reconsidered.

[dpgibbons]

The caption to that photo called them "spurs", but I think outriggers is more descriptive.

[wagonman]

The Penzance turntable was probably the largest they could fit into what was a very confined space. Presumably that was why they had eventually to bite the bullet and build a new depot up the line at Long Rock.

 

But many thanks – that was the photo I was thinking of. And thanks too to Russ for an even better view.

[tomparryharry]

Caerphilly Works had a 45' turntable, which was ex-Rhymney Railway.  About the 1940's the turntable started to go out of use, with locomotives being  sent to Caerphilly in particular orientation to allow easier work movements.  Locomotives arriving in the wrong orientation were sent back to turn on the small triangle between Penrhos & Watford-Beddau loop junctions. I remember the turntable being in situ and largely intact in the early 1970's.  sadly, it was cut up where it stood.    

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I have just seen this thread, I am sure in Great Western Engine Sheds London Division Wild Swan Publications there is a drawing of I think of a 40 foot the turntable  for Aylesbury which was out out use and removed in the 1920s I will check later but this is an under girder GWR type for turning tank engines so would probably suit your requirements. I swill see if I can find the drawing later for you. 

 

David

[dpgibbons]

The drawing you refer to is for a 23'9" fully boarded turntable. Unfortunately it's poorly reproduced in the book so I doubt it would copy well. The book also has better drawings of the 55' and 65" overgirder designs. 

[wenlock]

20 hours ago, David Bigcheeseplant said:

I have just seen this thread, I am sure in Great Western Engine Sheds London Division Wild Swan Publications there is a drawing of I think of a 40 foot the turntable  for Aylesbury which was out out use and removed in the 1920s I will check later but this is an under girder GWR type for turning tank engines so would probably suit your requirements. I swill see if I can find the drawing later for you. 

 

David

Thanks David, funnily enough I ordered the book you mention and it arrived this morning  I've not had chance for a proper read yet, but it looks like it contains loads of useful information.

[bgman]

Dear Mr.Wenlock,

 

It may be of some help in making your decision about modelling a TT for Shirt-on !

 

I ordered the Kitwood 48 ' version a couple of years ago, and having made it ( easy build and very enjoyable ) I found that my Dean Goods and tender, albeit a 2000 gall version fitted nicely onto it without any problems.

 

Ignoring the awful attempt to place some ballast in the well ( to be altered at some point ) here are some photographs of the model off the boards.....

 

 

 

And with the DG placed for info....

 

 

G

 

[wenlock]

59 minutes ago, bgman said:

Dear Mr.Wenlock,

 

It may be of some help in making your decision about modelling a TT for Shirt-on !

 

I ordered the Kitwood 48 ' version a couple of years ago, and having made it ( easy build and very enjoyable ) I found that my Dean Goods and tender, albeit a 2000 gall version fitted nicely onto it without any problems.

 

Ignoring the awful attempt to place some ballast in the well ( to be altered at some point ) here are some photographs of the model off the boards.....

 

 

 

And with the DG placed for info....

 

 

G

 

Hi Grahame, I was rather hoping you might pop in   You've made a lovely job of building the Kitwood turntable and the Dean looks very much at home on it!  There's not a lot of spare room at either end of the table and my Dean Goods has the longer tender!  Kitwood aren't taking any more orders for turntables at present according to their website which is a bit annoying, but I'm in no hurry just information gathering at the moment!

 

Have you given any thoughts about powering the turntable yet?  I've been reading about "stepper motors" but it all seems a bit complicated!

 

I'm also not sure what to do about providing power to the rails.  Presumably I'm going to need to have some kind of magic polarity switching

device to avoid shorts and stop the sound chips shutting down!

 

Best wishes

 

Dave

[Harlequin]

15 minutes ago, wenlock said:

Hi Grahame, I was rather hoping you might pop in   You've made a lovely job of building the Kitwood turntable and the Dean looks very much at home on it!  There's not a lot of spare room at either end of the table and my Dean Goods has the longer tender!  Kitwood aren't taking any more orders for turntables at present according to their website which is a bit annoying, but I'm in no hurry just information gathering at the moment!

 

Have you given any thoughts about powering the turntable yet?  I've been reading about "stepper motors" but it all seems a bit complicated!

 

I'm also not sure what to do about providing power to the rails.  Presumably I'm going to need to have some kind of magic polarity switching

device to avoid shorts and stop the sound chips shutting down!

 

Best wishes

 

Dave

Hi Dave,

 

It's a shame they aren't taking orders because the Kitwood 48ft looks perfect for you, IMHO. If your Dean overhangs the ends slightly, while the wheelbase is fully on board that would only enhance the Edwardian feel of an old turntable just starting to get overtaken by loco developments!

 

I read somewhere about a turntable that was simply driven by a normal loco motor controlled by a normal DCC loco decoder. I seem to remember the author saying that he didn't bother with "indexing" to get the rails lined up, he found it was simple to just "drive" it by eye. And the advantages of controlling it via DCC are that you already have all the control system, you have nice back EMF motor control and you can even set up acceleration and deceleration of the movement if you want.

 

To power the rails and cope with polarity in a DCC system is really easy - just feed them through an "AutoReverser". It will change phase as soon as the loco wheels touch the fixed tracks (if it needs to) and keep your sound running all the time.

 

[drduncan]

Richard Butler’s Westcliff uses the normal layout dc controller to turn the TT via a change over switch. The rails are aligned by eye - even I managed to work it without messing it up. 
 

WRT DCC perhaps one of these auto return loop thingies might be able to deal with the polarity and supply issue. But as Nampara won’t have a TT (at least in this version) it’s not a dcc problem I’ve had to ponder or play around with. But in case I change my mind anyone got a photo of mixed gauge TTs?

Duncan

[bgman]

4 hours ago, wenlock said:

Have you given any thoughts about powering the turntable yet?  I've been reading about "stepper motors" but it all seems a bit complicated!

 

Hi Dave,

 

I had to wait a couple of months for mine to arrive from Simon as he makes them in batches which wasn't a problem to be honest.

 

I discussed motorising the TT with him and for an additional cost he supplied me with the motor as seen in my photographs. It's more than capable of powering 7mm heavyweights that are placed on it, additionally I used a spare decoder to control it. I was happy to use mark-one eyeball to line it up ( which also adds to the operational value for me ). Like you, I don't have the expertise in advanced eleckrtickery so I kept it simple, some cleverer than I use Arduino ( whatever that is  ? ) or other stuff.

 

I also have a spare Roco multiMaus that has a rotating control which was used to operate it for ease of use.

 

As for power there are two plungers supplied which make contact with the rails that work extremely well so no problems in that department, I also added an Auto-reversers as a backup ( which Phil has made reference to in his reply ).

 

 

 

Ta ta for now mate !

 

G

 

p.s. I think you may ? be able to fit the DG with a 2500 gall tender on this one if you're careful !

 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by bgman
extra stuff / info

[wenlock]

17 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Dave,

 

It's a shame they aren't taking orders because the Kitwood 48ft looks perfect for you, IMHO. If your Dean overhangs the ends slightly, while the wheelbase is fully on board that would only enhance the Edwardian feel of an old turntable just starting to get overtaken by loco developments!

 

Hi Phil,

 

I completely agree a bit of overhang as long as the wheels are still on the track is exactly the look I'm after

 

17 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

I read somewhere about a turntable that was simply driven by a normal loco motor controlled by a normal DCC loco decoder. I seem to remember the author saying that he didn't bother with "indexing" to get the rails lined up, he found it was simple to just "drive" it by eye. And the advantages of controlling it via DCC are that you already have all the control system, you have nice back EMF motor control and you can even set up acceleration and deceleration of the movement if you want.

 

I hadn't thought about using a decoder to control the turntable motor, that's a really useful tip!

 

17 hours ago, Harlequin said:

To power the rails and cope with polarity in a DCC system is really easy - just feed them through an "AutoReverser". It will change phase as soon as the loco wheels touch the fixed tracks (if it needs to) and keep your sound running all the time.

 

I shall do a bit of research about "AutoReversers", it all sounds like witchcraft, but if it does the job I'll be delighted!

 

BW

 

Dave

[wenlock]

16 hours ago, drduncan said:

Richard Butler’s Westcliff uses the normal layout dc controller to turn the TT via a change over switch. The rails are aligned by eye - even I managed to work it without messing it up. 

 

Hi Duncan, good to hear that alignment by eye isn't to much of an issue

 

16 hours ago, drduncan said:

 

 But in case I change my mind anyone got a photo of mixed gauge TTs?

 

 Now that's something I've never seen a picture of!

 

BW

 

Dave

Edited June 4, 2021 by wenlock
Spelling!

[wenlock]

14 hours ago, bgman said:

 

Hi Dave,

 

I had to wait a couple of months for mine to arrive from Simon as he makes them in batches which wasn't a problem to be honest.

 

I discussed motorising the TT with him and for an additional cost he supplied me with the motor as seen in my photographs. It's more than capable of powering 7mm heavyweights that are placed on it, additionally I used a spare decoder to control it. I was happy to use mark-one eyeball to line it up ( which also adds to the operational value for me ). Like you, I don't have the expertise in advanced eleckrtickery so I kept it simple, some cleverer than I use Arduino ( whatever that is  ? ) or other stuff.

 

I also have a spare Roco multiMaus that has a rotating control which was used to operate it for ease of use.

 

As for power there are two plungers supplied which make contact with the rails that work extremely well so no problems in that department, I also added an Auto-reversers as a backup ( which Phil has made reference to in his reply ).

 

 

 

Ta ta for now mate !

 

G

 

p.s. I think you may ? be able to fit the DG with a 2500 gall tender on this one if you're careful !

 

 

 

Thanks Grahame, that's all really useful!

 

Good to hear that my Dean should be able to squeeze it's way on

 

BW

 

Dave

 

[Regularity]

Despite all the assertions about longer turntables being essential for balancing purposes, this photo from my collection shows that a standard MR 0-6-0 can be turned on a 40’ table (in this case, Blisworth SMJR) with maybe some effort (and this happened several times a day for decades):

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

The loco would be balanced though.

 

The axle weight for each axle would be about the same with the centre of gravity about the middle.

 

Loco     48.75 tons   - 16.25 tons per axle

Tender 41.20 tons   - 13.75 tons per axle

 

 

I don't know whether those weights are loaded or empty as I got them from Wiki.

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

... and, as discussed, that's a bigger (longer wheelbase) engine than the Dean Goods or River.

[wenlock]

7 hours ago, Regularity said:

Despite all the assertions about longer turntables being essential for balancing purposes, this photo from my collection shows that a standard MR 0-6-0 can be turned on a 40’ table (in this case, Blisworth SMJR) with maybe some effort (and this happened several times a day for decades):

 

 

Now that really is squeezed on!  The expression “where there’s a will, there’s a way” seems appropriate 

 

I wonder if I could persuade “kitwood” to do me a 7mm scale 42 foot kit!

[Artless Bodger]

On 01/06/2021 at 03:35, dpgibbons said:

I'm modelling a largish pre WW1 GWR shed so I've been giving some thought to period turntable options.

 

I have a GA drawing of a 55' overbridge turntable with internal walkways dated 1894, so that does suit the Edwardian period. Unfortunately Greenwood's GWR kit comes only in 65' and 75', but they do a Cowans Sheldon design in 50'. Kitwood's freelance 48' table is based on the Cowans Sheldon design at Yeovil Jct. The Metalsmith/Midland Railway Centre tables appear to be out of production.

 

In addition to the books already mentioned, "Great Western Engine Sheds - London Division" by Hawkins and Reeve is an excellent source of info and drawings.

 

Here's a pic of a turntable outrigger in use at Penzance. Presumably after turning the loco ran forward onto a turntable spur to allow the outrigger to be removed. Readily replicated in model form if you don't mind some finger poking!

 

 

 

I'm a bit late to the party on this one, but thanks for the photo above, I'd seen it somewhere before but couldn't find it in any of my books or online. When I first saw it the extensions were described as 'crocodile irons' as they were long and tapered and iirc were hinged to fold sideways onto the rail top, though in this photo it looks more as though they have been bolted on with fish plates. Has anyone else heard the term 'crocodile irons' or am I confusing it with some other railway item likewise named?

 

PS I wanted a short turntable to fit my layout so I built a through girder one out of plastic sheet (it is only N gauge), totally manual but it will turn a dukedog.

[Regularity]

Loco crews would pretty quickly learn how much water to put into the tender to balance the loco for turning, and indeed, whether to top up the coal before or after turning, too, if there was a coaling stage.

I suspect that a full tender would balance things better.

 

IIRC, 4-6-0 tender locos had their longitudinal centre of gravity more or less right in the middle of their length, which would make turning them relatively simple. (Maybe that is why the GWR only had the one pacific?  )

 

For S scale, a 42’ table is 199.92mm long, or 2 thou under 200mm, so a 4mm scale 50’ table is perfect.

I can’t quite believe I have fouled my mouth by using millimetres for the Imperial Scale, though!

 

BTW, even tank locos were turned on the Fairford branch: much easier to drive going chimney first.

[Regularity]

A passing thought, but a Peco 00/H0 turntable could provide you with a well and some of the basic structural requirements, and would scale out at 18” or so oversize - hardly noticeable, but slightly easier to get locos on.

Similarly, a 4mm scale 70’ table would provide you with a 40’ table in 7mm. A bit tighter, but to scale. You might be able to order various pieces for a well, at least, and double up on the 4mm parts for the well itself.

[Compound2632]

It was Simon @Regularity who pointed out to me the alcove that every turntable well has, that I had not previously observed but am now seeing everywhere. To provide access to the table ends for maintenance, or possibly to hide in if a gale is blowing and your engine is spinning like a top!

[wenlock]

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

It was Simon @Regularity who pointed out to me the alcove that every turntable well has, that I had not previously observed but am now seeing everywhere. To provide access to the table ends for maintenance, or possibly to hide in if a gale is blowing and your engine is spinning like a top!

Any pictures of said alcove?

 

BW

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, wenlock said:

Any pictures of said alcove?

 

BW

 

Dave

 

I think it can be seen in Simon's Blisworth photo, below the locomotive buffer, just to the left of the driver pushing on the turntable lever - there's a board above a dark void. An example in preservation at Wansford, NVR. Patricroft, I believe, late 50s/early 60s? Keighley: the tables is from Hawes so I suppose the pit is new-build. 

 

I think the alcove may not have been necessary for the Great Western's overgirder type table, with shallow pit.