SE&CR 5 and 7 plank open wagons.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

That and the gentleman on Facebook asking if it would be possible to fit Hornby Dublo couplings to it... (Reminder, Hornby Dublo have been out of production now for 57 years!). 

 

I think it would be more respectful to the promised quality of these models to enquire how easy it will be to pull the drawhook out so as to replace with a 3-link coupling. Oh, and remove the mount for the NEM socket.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think it would be more respectful to the promised quality of these models to enquire how easy it will be to pull the drawhook out so as to replace with a 3-link coupling. Oh, and remove the mount for the NEM socket.

 

I did not intend any disrespect. I just find that the Simplex is inspired. Certainly better than the tension lock in every way. Bit of a Betamax / VHS situation. The better product does not always win out.

[Paul.Uni]

47 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

I wonder which models are of preserved types.

 

I only found 16194 so far.

12522 at Severn Valley

Edited May 28, 2021 by Paul.Uni

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I did not intend any disrespect. 

 

It was the unknown Facebooker quoted by @Skinnylinny I had in mind, not your good self!

[Neal Ball]

2 hours ago, Mick Bonwick said:

Well done Rapido for producing these wagons. I do have one observation about the level of detail. There is a lot of detail incorporated underneath the wagon, and that is commendable, but from the illustrations published so far I cannot see much interior detail being present. Modellers will normally see the interior of an open wagon far more frequently than the underneath.

 

Am I missing something that is obvious to everybody else?

 

Congratulations to Rapido for these wagons, I dare say a couple would have made it to Henley on Thames in the 1930’s

 

However, I do agree with @Mick Bonwick it’s great to see the detail... but surely it’s an omission for the interiors not be be accurately portrayed. 
 

Is it too late to include the doors details? @rapidoandy

 

Thanks, Neal.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, That Model Railway Guy said:

My money would have been on: "When are Hornby announcing their version?"  

I think you'll find there's a thread about their 'SECR' three-planker already ....................

[gwrrob]

58 minutes ago, Paul.Uni said:

12522 at Severn Valley

 

Here's a photo I took two years ago of it.

 

[Andy Hayter]

1 hour ago, RichardT said:

OK, I’ll bite, because frankly I’m tired of perfectly reasonable requests for existing 4mm models to be also offered in N being treated as a joke.  When the initial research has already been done and EPs produced, what on earth is silly about hoping that a manufacturer might want to increase sales by re-using that work for another scale?
 

But if you need any other reasons than simple fairness, well, there are modern standard r-t-r Farish N gauge models of *two*SE&CR locos which would be a perfect fit with these wagons;

 

wagons travelled all over the country and were long-lived; 

 

modellers tend to buy wagons in multiples which reduces the sales risk in shrinking a 4mm model to N;

 

the N market is currently starved of new products covering the pre-nationalisation era, and models depicting “everyday” prototypes. (There appears to be much less of a collectors market in N for the one-off/niche prototypes which seem to be the fashion in 4mm.)

 

I own a fair fleet of Rapido N-scale US & Canadian models and I’d really like to be able to add the same level of quality to my LNER N fleet.
 

Whilst I continue to hope that Rapido will one day start to fill the big gap in the market for UK mixed-traffic steam tank locos in N (hint: many of which don’t have any complicated external motion and have big tanks & cabs to hide a decent mechanism...), I’ll happily take some decent wagons!

 

Have I risen to the bait properly?  
 

Have a great bank holiday weekend.

 

Richard

 

I have more than a little sympathy Richard having chosen to model in H0 a French railway company that might with considered as the French equivalent of the GWR but having bought an rtr loco in the 1980s had to wait until the 2010s for the next one from the "standard" rtr manufacturers.  Coaches and wagons were even rarer as new rtr until the end of the noughties.

 

However you do need to understand the realities of production.  Yes you are right that all of the ground work has been done and it is tempting to say just divide everything by 2 (or whatever is the exact ratio).  Life however is not that simple. 

 

These are injection moulded models so new moulds have to be cut into metal and despite the size being halved, the cost of cutting metal remains pretty much the same.  This now has to be divided over a market that is often said to be about 15% of the 00 market  The return on your mould costs then has to be a lot higher..

 

But even that is an over simplification.  If you thin down the walls of the open wagon by 50%, is this thinner material now able to maintain the stability and remain flat ( no bowing)?  And more than that is the chosen grade of plastic actually able to flow cleanly into the thinner, smaller moulds?  Or do you need to chose a less viscous grade that flows more easily and if you chose this, does it have the same stability on cooling (as in no distortion and the same level of contraction) as the 00 grade of material?  

 

so lots of new calculations to be made before the moulds can be cut.  So the ground work has to be redone - even that was not a given, though we thought it was.

 

So given all of this and the much smaller market size, would you happily pay perhaps as much £45 for an N gauge open wagon?  And if the answer is yes, how many others will follow?  

[That Model Railway Guy]

20 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

I think you'll find there's a thread about their 'SECR' three-planker already ....................

 

Good to know, I'd completely missed that. Thanks  

[autocoach]

Oh well!

 

I still have a considerable stash of unbuilt Cambrian kits should I need more for my UK collection to go with my Dapol Class D (Southern Black.) 

 

And I'm still waiting for that HO  Pennsylvania X31a box car from Rapido that will cost about as much as these wagons with shipping and the depreciated US dollar.  Not even on the Rapido (what a misnomer) North American production schedule. 

[Gordon Connell]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Good Move - going for Pre-Group wagons when there have been very few decent essays in that direction in the r-t-r world.   Makes far more commercial sense than going for the already 'busy' market area of up-to-the-minute wagonry.

Even Better Move - Going for opens, not vans - much more sensible in historic terms..

Best Move - They're not generic!!!!!!!

 

Bad Move (from my viewpoint) - Gone back a bit too far, i would have thought there could be more mileage in wagons built Post WWI?  

 

Conclusion - These will probably sell as fast as Rapido can churn them out forat least a year or two

 

 

 

Agree with everything but with one change:

 

Bad Move (from my viewpoint) - Not gone back far enough, though I accept there's maybe not as much mileage in wagons built Pre WWI. 

[mdvle]

3 hours ago, Synch said:

I understand the sentiment from both sides, but I have to say at over $50 CAD a piece I'll probably stick to building kits. I appreciate the work that goes into such things but especially in regards to stock that was built in the hundreds of thousands and if looking for more then one or two vehicles, things start to add up rather drastically, good on Rapido for continuing to add to Pre-Grouping rtr but I'll have to pass.

 

Over C$50?  Nope.

 

List price is £32.95, remove the VAT and that works out to C$47.

But better yet, one retailer is selling at £27.95 so again remove that VAT and get C$40.

 

But really, that's a bargain.  Look at Rapido's US stuff:

 

PRR X31A boxcar - C$60

Just announced AutoFlood III Hopper - C$75

 

So that is a very reasonable price on the UK product.

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by mdvle

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, autocoach said:

And I'm still waiting for that HO  Pennsylvania X31a box car from Rapido that will cost about as much as these wagons with shipping and the depreciated US dollar.  Not even on the Rapido (what a misnomer) North American production schedule. 

 

Don't know where you are looking but I easily found it on their production schedule at https://rapidotrains.com/new-product-delivery-schedule

 

They are in production and due 3rd quarter 2021 (July - Sept.)

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by mdvle

[JSpencer]

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Bad Move (from my viewpoint) - Gone back a bit too far, i would have thought there could be more mileage in wagons built Post WWI?  

 

For me, these are mainly after WWI even if some were made during it.

Although I've ordered them, they are really only suited to SECR locos in grey livery in pre-grouping days.

 

So my thoughts would be for even older types like the Rails SECR 1424 van. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by JSpencer

[JohnR]

Inspired choice!

 

I'm having to buy several, as it would be great to have more pre-group stock for my LSWR terrier. 

 

And then some in BR grey.

 

And also the Black engineering one?

 

Oh my poor wallet!!

[Butler Henderson]

Found a photo of S19228 as offered by Rapido albeit in more typical weathered condition with replaced planks quoted as being at Carlisle in 1960. As it is hard up against a set of buffer stops suspect it probably did not move much after the photo was taken. Source: Pre-Nationalisation Freight Wagons of  British Railways, David Larkin, Bradford Barton 1977  ISBN 0 85153 302 7

[Garethp8873]

Didn't notice til I read the article earlier, that Rapido was doing the Severn Valley Railway's example of SECR 12522. That being the case, I cannot refuse 12522... even if I am a Big Four modeller...!! Always been one of my favourite SVR wagons

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Garethp8873

[MrTea]

If you haven’t watched it yet, the video is classic Rapido Trains:

Looking forward to these landing chaps!

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

 

However, I do agree with @Mick Bonwick it’s great to see the detail... but surely it’s an omission for the interiors not be be accurately portrayed. 
 

Is it too late to include the doors details? @rapidoandy

 

 

Probably, given the delivery schedule - which is annoying.

 

It does seem bizarre that a lot of effort has gone into the underframe - which you do not normally see yet the inside of the wagon which is very visible lacks a fundamental piece of detailing. Bachmann feature such detail on their private owner coal wagons so its not as though its impossible to add a couple of vertical lines on the inside to indicate the door locations.

[Dunsignalling]

These look great and, for those carping about the price, I think it's time we UK modellers/collectors got away from, consciously or not, assessing value for money on the basis of "pounds per inch". 

 

I do hope the NEM mounts will be screwed on, though; I use Kadee couplers and greatly prefer "the real thing" to the plug-in sort.

 

John

Edited May 29, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[rapidoandy]

Morning everyone,

 

Thanks for all the positive responses- it is great to know people are as excited for these as we are.

 

Picking up on a few comments:

 

The interior vertical lines are there for both the main door and the top door. The lighting in the photos don't help and the plain plastic colour again makes it difficult to see. We have not made them huge great seams as frankly that is not prototypical. The wagons had no internal ironwork, the only details that are missing are the very flat-domed coach bolt heads that were sunk nearly flush into the woodwork. Now - it is feasibly possible to produce this sort of detail but it requires specialist collapsible moulds which get very expensive. This will only mean a greater price and I am not sure the cost  justifies the extra detail for many modellers. The underframe however has been VERY cleverly designed by our UK CAD team and required no fancy tooling to be able to produce that level of detail - so obviously we included everything we could!

 

Regarding price - the world is getting more expensive. In terms of return for us the % is no different to many other projects - we are certainly not being greedy over it. Unfortunately raw materials, transport, tooling and assembly costs are all on the rise - we cannot do a lot about that. There have been comments (elsewhere) I think that an open wagon should cost less than a box van as there is less wagon. Actually - it's almost the same price or possibly more expensive (see my comment about moulds above if you want to start adding lots of detail into the inside). They require a pretty similar amount of moulds etc etc. However many modellers do feel there should be a cost difference - maybe that is why there have been lots of vans produced in the past?

 

I have to own up to making the mistakes on the artwork - my bad! These will be corrected. We were waiting for a few experts to come back with some information to allow us to complete the Tare weights on some. However I missed the brown solebars / headstocks putting this together last week. Likewise we somehow managed to produced the post-36 examples in pre-36 style - again these will be corrected shortly.

 

Regarding the other bodies that fit these chassis - I wouldn't be much of a SECR fan if I didn't know about them. Frankly, lets see how these sell.

 

We have a number of very exciting wagon projects - this is just the beginning of our plans. I have spent a lot of time in the past restoring full size wagons and have a fairly hefty collection of works drawings for lots of different wagons from all over the country. Many of these I would love to see in model form - hopefully the sales of these wagons will justify our thoughts of increasing the range.

 

Happy modelling!

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, rapidoandy said:

The wagons had no internal ironwork, the only details that are missing are the very flat-domed coach bolt heads that were sunk nearly flush into the woodwork. 

 

The construction of these wagons is very much in the style of contemporary Great Western wagons - and ultimately became more-or-less standard, though it took the LMS another decade or more to follow suit. The external angle-iron knees are characteristic.

 

Besides which, SER / SECR wagon design seems generally to have preferred countersunk coach bolts over ordinary bolts with iron/steel washer plates on the inside, Such an arrangement reduces the chance of snagging on crates, sacks, or bales.

[truffy]

@rapidoandy, thank you for the clarification. From a personal POV, which I'm quite sure not all will share, the cost seems just about right. The detail is fantastic!

 

But, and there has to be a 'but', right? Given the level of detail, why are the buffers not sprung? I realise that they can be changed, for others in the user-fitted parts, although there's no indication that that they're sprung either.

 

Also, it's not quite clear from the photos, but it looks like adding three-link couplings shouldn't require major surgery. Have I got that right?

Edited May 29, 2021 by truffy
shouldn't is very different from should!

[Wheatley]

I'm in the 'too expensive' camp, sorry. I understand how much things cost to produce but for me, if we're genuinely into £30 territory for a bog standard 12ton open then it's over-specced. If Oxford can turn LNER opens out for £12 then it can be done. I'm aware the brakes were back to front on some but that's a function of numptiness in either design or assembly, not in spec. They were still separately fitted and not moulded as part of the chassis.  

 

I'll pay a premium for stand alone models like locos, dynamometer cars, even four wheeled wagons which are awkward and a challenge to build like Presflos, horseboxes and Trouts. But not something which is four flat sides and a floor, Oxford's "close enough" standards suit me fine for those. Back to the Parksides and Cambrians. 

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Wheatley

[GreenGiraffe22]

4 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

If we're genuinely into £30 territory for a bog standard 12ton open then it's over-specced. 

 

The prototype may be bog standard but the model seems to be of accuracy not yet seen in plank wagons.

 

I don't think they're over priced, but interesting you mention 'over-specced' , I do wonder if all the detail underneath is entirely necessary, it's exquisitely detailed yes, but how often is it even going to be seen once it's on the layout ... ?

 

However if there are people that enjoy regularly inspecting the underneath of their models then fair enough =)