bill_schmidt1 Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 3 hours ago, MartinTrucks said: One of the 7-plank SECR design wagons we have on Bluebell (it is numbered 5542 and is in SECR grey livery despite being a SR-built wagon) has 3-hole disc wheels, but these are not standard and have tyres! Regards, Martin Having built a couple of the Cambrian kits recently it only took me a few minutes to look through a few books to see that in later SR and then BR days that some picked up 3-hole disc wheels. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 Absolutely stunning wagons, well done Rapido! NEM pockets and Tension locks really are ugly though aren't they. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted May 30, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 30, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, bill_schmidt1 said: Having built a couple of the Cambrian kits recently it only took me a few minutes to look through a few books to see that in later SR and then BR days that some picked up 3-hole disc wheels. It goes the other way, too. In "Twilight of the Goods", there are 1960s photos of a 1942-built SR 5-plank and a 1946-built plywood bodied van, both fitted with split-spoke wheels. Better still, the 5-plank has Oleo buffers! The SR had a long-standing policy of re-using serviceable axle-boxes and wheelsets from scrapped wagons on new-build stock. I suspect the other three big four companies did the same, at least during WW2. Photos suggest that BR also recycled such things, either at build or during repair or overhaul, and a surprising number illustrate wagons with two different types of wheel. BR ventilated meat vans seem to have commonly had spoked wheels, as did quite a high proportion of Conflats. John Edited May 30, 2021 by Dunsignalling 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pre Grouping fan Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 7 hours ago, MartinTrucks said: One of the 7-plank SECR design wagons we have on Bluebell (it is numbered 5542 and is in SECR grey livery despite being a SR-built wagon) has 3-hole disc wheels, but these are not standard and have tyres! Regards, Martin I can say that once the second SECR built example No 16358 has been rebuilt from its flat pack state 5542 will revert to being SR liveried and numbered 28542. All part of our masterplan in the Goods Division. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 12 hours ago, PaulRhB said: It’s ok if you don’t want to pay the Rapido price commission a run of Dapol open wagons with SECR on the side A couple will be joining my collection to make the C and P happy WOT ! ..... Dapol ones ??!? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 12 hours ago, MartinTrucks said: One of the 7-plank SECR design wagons we have on Bluebell (it is numbered 5542 and is in SECR grey livery despite being a SR-built wagon) has 3-hole disc wheels, but these are not standard and have tyres! Regards, Martin Didn't they come from being in internal use at Avonmouth docks for many years? The wheels used then doesn't mean that is how they were 100 years ago. Paul 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pre Grouping fan Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 Yes and some had many non standard parts fitted or other repairs from their hard life in Bristol. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrainMan2001 Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 On 28/05/2021 at 07:54, Graham_Muz said: Just the N gauge request to go now.... anyone? On it! Any chance of getting these in N gauge? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, hmrspaul said: Didn't they come from being in internal use at Avonmouth docks for many years? The wheels used then doesn't mean that is how they were 100 years ago. Paul I don't understand the point you are trying to make, Paul. Standard 9"x4.25" wheelsets can be swapped around as much as one likes. All the Standard 3-hole wheelsets I have ever seen have been monobloc, i.e. solid, tyre-less. LSWR wheelsets will not fit in a standard underframe and vice versa, without modification to the frame. The SECR design wagons have a 9"x4" wheelset. Of course it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that any surviving SECR (or for that matter, any pre-nationalisation company) wagon will still have the same wheelsets with which it was fitted from new. I never suggested that! The pair of wheelsets under wagon '5542' are 3-hole but with tyres. I have never seen similar sets and (although I have not lifted the vehicle to get to the axle ends, I assume that they are a SR replacement for life-expired SECR open-spoke wheels. <EDIT> Mike King etc., Volume 3, page 61 shows two SR-built diagram 1355 wagons with 3-hole wheelsets. Martin Edited May 31, 2021 by MartinTrucks Additional info 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 56 minutes ago, MartinTrucks said: ........ wheelsets ... are 3-hole but with tyres. I have never seen similar sets ........ Implying that bog-standard three hole wheels are 'monobloc' type, in your experience ? 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted May 31, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 31, 2021 23 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said: Don't forget the Taff Vale Railway, and I'd like another Pontnewynydd GWR brake to go with my Jidenco kit-built one please. I think I'm right in saying the percentage of Company wagons versus colliery wagons was fairly small, at least in pre-grouping times. Remember, however, that if they can't scan it, They (manufacturers in general ) don't really want to make it. Rapido are taking flak for very minor details on the 16xx, and they scanned the real one.. I wouldn't be surprised if our AA24 Toad is somewhere at the south end of the list... South Georgia, probably.... Probably the best way to acquire one is a trip down the 3D route. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted May 31, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 31, 2021 17 minutes ago, tomparryharry said: Remember, however, that if they can't scan it, They (manufacturers in general ) don't really want to make it. Rapido are taking flak for very minor details on the 16xx, and they scanned the real one.. Scanning is fraught with danger. Fine if all you want to do is model the item as preserved / restored but no substitute for proper research and ideally original drawings if you want to represent any earlier condition. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 Even original drawings only show what the Drawing Office intended the thing to look like - and the Works which built it might have had other ideas ................. let alone modifications in service. A multiple approach using scanning for the basic shape, drawings for details and as many contemporary photos as possible to confirm everything is the only sensible approach .... and I'm sure the only approach taken by sensible manufacturers. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted May 31, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 31, 2021 13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Scanning is fraught with danger. Fine if all you want to do is model the item as preserved / restored but no substitute for proper research and ideally original drawings if you want to represent any earlier condition. Yes, too true. How do you remake an Item that disappeared in the 1960's? I think there were only 5-6 Toads ever made to this configuration, over a 30 year duration. I can't see one of the big boys committing funds to a limited niche--niche market. One thing about niche-niche is as you travel further, so little idiosyncrasies start to emerge. 'One door was 3"shorter at the bottom ledge, and the guard always kept his flags opposite the shunting pole', sort of thing. Or, the headstock on that particular model is out by 0.25mm. Being pragmatic, You won't see it in RTR model. Sure, I'd like one, but If I was in charge, it wouldn't happen. That is not to say that it'll never happen, but there are many avenues we can explore to achieve it. That is our greatest ability ; problem solving. can I have the 'Ponty Toad one, where it's through piped, and painted in 1930's livery? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted May 31, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Wickham Green too said: Even original drawings only show what the Drawing Office intended the thing to look like - and the Works which built it might have had other ideas ................. let alone modifications in service. A multiple approach using scanning for the basic shape, drawings for details and as many contemporary photos as possible to confirm everything is the only sensible approach .... and I'm sure the only approach taken by sensible manufacturers. I was aware as I wrote that reference to original drawings would be pounced on, just as I had pounced on the limitations of scanning. I could have qualified my remarks by saying that all sources of information come with their various health warnings; they have to be used intelligently. I have for some time maintained that the safest course is to model a class member for which there is no good photograph of either side at any period. Edited May 31, 2021 by Compound2632 4 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 12 hours ago, Wickham Green too said: A multiple approach using scanning for the basic shape, drawings for details and as many contemporary photos as possible to confirm everything is the only sensible approach .... While I agree with most of it, I'm not sure that they need to scan - what is basically - a rather big box. Maybe the axle boxes.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigw Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 12 hours ago, Wickham Green too said: Even original drawings only show what the Drawing Office intended the thing to look like - and the Works which built it might have had other ideas ................. let alone modifications in service. A multiple approach using scanning for the basic shape, drawings for details and as many contemporary photos as possible to confirm everything is the only sensible approach .... and I'm sure the only approach taken by sensible manufacturers. No they don't. There are proposal drawings which will put the concept forward. these were not always used and the trick is that some survive and with incomplete records it is hard to know if they were used After discussion a General arrangement drawing will be produced and this will call out detail drawings. Railway companies were Engineering concerns and they followed processes to standardise parts. The big issue is that not every drawing has survived and a copy of an original drawing from (example) 1895 may not be an example that was updated and amended to reflect the changes that occurred. Generally modifications or changes followed a process and would have been recorded at the time, even if we do not know that now. If you are building 2000 wagons they are not going to be built with guesswork. Regards, Craig W 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 3 hours ago, Craigw said: No they don't. There are proposal drawings which will put the concept forward. these were not always used and the trick is that some survive and with incomplete records it is hard to know if they were used After discussion a General arrangement drawing will be produced and this will call out detail drawings. Railway companies were Engineering concerns and they followed processes to standardise parts. The big issue is that not every drawing has survived and a copy of an original drawing from (example) 1895 may not be an example that was updated and amended to reflect the changes that occurred. Generally modifications or changes followed a process and would have been recorded at the time, even if we do not know that now. If you are building 2000 wagons they are not going to be built with guesswork. Regards, Craig W Ah now, drawings are a topic in their own right! Some people who had worked at Eastleigh Carriage Works told me tales of construction being held up on a particular new-build because the components on the drawing would not fit in 1:1 scale. The draughtsman was summoned and a shop-floor discussion occurred; the foreman with artisan suggesting a modification. The modified component was trial fitted, found to be satisfactory and production continued. Shortly afterwards the draughtsman would return and measure up so that he could alter the drawing! Conversely, one has the case of 34059 Sir Archibald Sinclair that needed a tender when it entered preservation. It had last run in BR service with a rebodied tender of 5250 gallon capacity. A drawing was obtained from (I believe) the NRM and the basic tender tank was built to this. When the half-finished product was inspected, it was queried why it did not look like the Hornby Dublo 'Barnstaple' tender with two rectangular fillers and one ladder on the rear. Answer - said drawing had been revised after the last 5250 gallon tender tank had been produced and it now had one rectangular filler and two ladders!!! Happy days! Martin 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Graham_Muz Posted June 3, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2021 On 31/05/2021 at 09:40, tomparryharry said: Remember, however, that if they can't scan it, They (manufacturers in general ) don't really want to make it. Sweeping statement of the week... 3 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestTom Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 I'm late to the party on this one, but I could certainly go for a couple of these. They'll add a bit of variety to my goods yard. Just now, Graham_Muz said: Sweeping statement of the week... I hear Hornby had to build an entire P2 from scratch, scan it, modify it, scan it, rebuild it, scan it, rebuild it again, scan it again and then dismantle it. And people complain about the price of new models! 1 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffy Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 38 minutes ago, HonestTom said: I hear Hornby had to build an entire P2 from scratch, scan it, modify it, scan it, rebuild it, scan it, rebuild it again, scan it again and then dismantle it. Obviously no other company had made an announcement, so Hornby didn’t have to rush to market. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted June 3, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Graham_Muz said: Sweeping statement of the week... Well, I made that statement on the basis that if you're making something, you expect to make a return on it. It also seems sense that the better the quality, the higher the RRP. The scan sometimes reveals what a 2-dimensional black & white photo misses out. It'll be a very brave person who will make a 39xx prairie in 00 RTR, for instance... "Oh, look! Here comes one now! And another..... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Graham_Muz Posted June 3, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, tomparryharry said: Well, I made that statement on the basis that if you're making something, you expect to make a return on it. It also seems sense that the better the quality, the higher the RRP. The scan sometimes reveals what a 2-dimensional black & white photo misses out. It'll be a very brave person who will make a 39xx prairie in 00 RTR, for instance... "Oh, look! Here comes one now! And another..... I was referring to and specifically quoted the statement that manufacturers wont produce it if they can't scan it, that simply is not true. I make statement from knowing what my current work load is and how many of those projects have been scanned (the later being zero!) 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted June 3, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, Graham_Muz said: I was referring to and specifically quoted the statement that manufacturers wont produce it if they can't scan it, that simply is not true. I make statement from knowing what my current work load is and how many of those projects have been scanned (the later being zero!) Hello Graham. I hereby note your comments, and bow to your knowledge here. I did say, however, that I used the term 'don't like' as opposed to 'won't. Have I got that right? Cheers, Ian. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Graham_Muz Posted June 3, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2021 12 minutes ago, tomparryharry said: Hello Graham. I hereby note your comments, and bow to your knowledge here. I did say, however, that I used the term 'don't like' as opposed to 'won't. Have I got that right? Cheers, Ian. Scanning sometimes has it's place, but it is not essential, I personally wouldn't use either 'don't like' or 'won't'. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now