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SE&CR 5 and 7 plank open wagons.


rapidoandy
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I too do both.  I enjoy building kits and when I started this project just about everything had to be kit or scratch built.  Any rtr items that come along and help fill the gaps in what has not been built are welcomed.   Lifespan is limited and a realistic view sees such items as a bonus.  

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20 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

D1426 included both unfitted ( lift-link ) and vacuum ( Morton ) vans D1427 was the conversion from the latter with lots of bodyside louvres ............. and, yes, you forgot the sheep wagon !! 

Just the one !!!

 

A model of the vented version of the van might be tempting though.

 

Ray

Edited by wainwright1
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As has been touched on, another reason that makes late pre-Grouping prototypes sensible from a manufacturer's point of view is that they are likely to have lasted through the Grouping era, justifying inclusion on any layout of the period due to pooling/common user arrangements. 

 

Having more freedom to mix goods stock is one of the attractions of the post-WW1/Grouping era.   

 

 

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Don’t forget the order books for the 7 and 7 plank wagons closes on Wednesday.

 

These have been really popular and I suspect that any extra stock retailers will have will be snapped up very quickly on release.

 

To make sure you get yours pre-order yours today though our official retailers or direct from us!

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On 28/05/2021 at 20:40, JSpencer said:

For me, these are mainly after WWI even if some were made during it.

Although I've ordered them, they are really only suited to SECR locos in grey livery in pre-grouping days.

 

So my thoughts would be for even older types like the Rails SECR 1424 van. 

I confess to knowing very little about the history of the SECR and whilst I have joined the excellent SECR Society in an effort to learn more, my motivation is solely to be able to run appropriate stock behind all those lovely Wainwright liveried locos that I've invested so much of the hard earned in.

So here's the thing. My understanding is that Maunsell introduced the grey livery during the early years of the war but what I've never been able to find out is how long did it take to repaint the entire locomotive stock, if indeed they ever managed to do so?  Given the constraints of wartime, I can quite imagine the two liveries living alongside each other for some little time at least.

I have no basis for that fond hope but it would give me the excuse I need.  Can anyone educate me?

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Footy said:

I confess to knowing very little about the history of the SECR and whilst I have joined the excellent SECR Society in an effort to learn more, my motivation is solely to be able to run appropriate stock behind all those lovely Wainwright liveried locos that I've invested so much of the hard earned in.

So here's the thing. My understanding is that Maunsell introduced the grey livery during the early years of the war but what I've never been able to find out is how long did it take to repaint the entire locomotive stock, if indeed they ever managed to do so?  Given the constraints of wartime, I can quite imagine the two liveries living alongside each other for some little time at least.

I have no basis for that fond hope but it would give me the excuse I need.  Can anyone educate me?

 

The grey livery would only be applied if the locomotive had undergone a major overhaul, so would take several years to become ubiquitous. But don't forget that Maunsell had already gone over to a simplified version of the green livery several years earlier.

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So I guess the same argument applies in that situation.

 

Is it possible to suggest a range of dates when each of the Maunsell liveries were introduced and when they disappeared?  The sweet spot, of course would be any years when those periods overlapped and you might reasonably have seen Maunsell complex livery alongside Maunsell simple alongside Maunsell grey.

 

 

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One can ascertain the typical frequency at which locomotives received general repairs, the interval at which a full repaint becomes likely; it being relatively uncommon during light or intermediate repairs. It should therefore be fairly easy to come up with a "ballpark figure" as to how long livery changes would have taken to work their way through the fleet.


The longest survival of the complex livery would arise from examples of it in very good order retaining it at their first "general" after the initial livery change (to the plainer green in this case).  Retouching at that visit increases the likelihood of a full repaint (into grey) at the next, and the "best" that might be hoped-for by then for would be a partial repaint  into the simplified green.

 

The complex livery should have been superseded once maintaining it required more time than it would take to apply the current standard or retouch into the intermediate one. On that basis, the complex livery is likely to have disappeared no later than the second general repair after the introduction of the simplified version.

 

I've no specific knowledge of SECR maintenance policy, but recent reading of material on top-link GWR locos of the era (the Star Class) indicates heavy/general repairs at intervals as short as 3 to 4 years to have been the norm.

 

If SECR practice were broadly similar, the complex livery should therefore have been virtually extinct 7-8 years after the simplified version was introduced.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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I believe I'm correct in saying Maunsell introduced the simplified Wainwright livery soon after his appointment as CME in 1913 and the grey loco livery during the war. The N class was painted grey from introduction in 1917 so it seems to be established practice at least by then.

 

If your entirely plausible analysis holds true then there is a window of opportunity from 1913 to around 1921 when it may have been possible to see all three liveries co existing.  On that basis, the median point, say around 1916 / 1917, can reasonably be assumed to offer a higher probability of that beIng the case.  My logic may well be flawed but it gives me the justification I need to feel less guilty about ordering all these SECR livery wagons to add to my kit built stock and to run them behind my Wainwright livery locos. Thank you.:D

 

The irony here is that Maunsell's simplified Wainwright livery isn't available RTR.

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On the neighbouring LB&SCR, the famous Stroudley "Improved Engine Green" livery and names were superseded by Marsh's umber from the tail end of 1905, but many examples carried on for several years after that. There were 6 E4 0-6-2's in the earlier liveries after 1910 and of the later, and larger, E5, famously Tillington survived in ochre until 1917, and Middleton until 1914. This survival might have been due to these locos being based at a London shed, where many repairs were carried out remotely from Brighton Works, and New Cross, in particular, seemed to like to cosset their favourites. A similar situation might have occurred at Stewarts Lane, with locos no being sent to Ashford as often, so a 7-10 year window might be feasible.

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11 hours ago, Footy said:

So I guess the same argument applies in that situation.

 

Is it possible to suggest a range of dates when each of the Maunsell liveries were introduced and when they disappeared?  The sweet spot, of course would be any years when those periods overlapped and you might reasonably have seen Maunsell complex livery alongside Maunsell simple alongside Maunsell grey.

 

 

 

If you look through the SECR online archives (as I see you are a member) there is a listing covering a short period of when locos were coming in for repaints but a full list of every loco and dates does not exist. What is clear a repaint happened every time a loco need some workshop attention (i;e no need to wait for an overall).

 

There are 4 main schemes:

Full Wainwright up until 1910-11

Simplified Wainwright (no bright shiny domes and simpler lining) but few would have carried it

Maunsell Green  - few locos would have carried it though probably more than simplified Wainwright

Grey - practically all would have had it or got scrapped before it happened.

 

I have not seen photographic evidence yet of an SECR loco running in Wainwright livery after WWI.

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32 minutes ago, Footy said:

I believe I'm correct in saying Maunsell introduced the simplified Wainwright livery soon after his appointment as CME in 1913 and the grey loco livery during the war. The N class was painted grey from introduction in 1917 so it seems to be established practice at least by then.

 

If your entirely plausible analysis holds true then there is a window of opportunity from 1913 to around 1921 when it may have been possible to see all three liveries co existing.  On that basis, the median point, say around 1916 / 1917, can reasonably be assumed to offer a higher probability of that beIng the case.  My logic may well be flawed but it gives me the justification I need to feel less guilty about ordering all these SECR livery wagons to add to my kit built stock and to run them behind my Wainwright livery locos. Thank you.:D

 

The irony here is that Maunsell's simplified Wainwright livery isn't available RTR.

Yes, the addition of wartime conditions to the mix (which my hypothesis omitted) would be a further disincentive to maintaining the complex livery, so even in 1916/7, the likelihood of a conjunction of all three liveries (other than in works, with the first giving way to the last) seems very limited.  

 

ISTR, though, that Bachmann have done a C in the simplified Wainwright scheme, or at least a simplified version of the ornate livery (not necessarily the same thing), that might well represent a loco overhauled and partially repainted in (say) 1913-15.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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17 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Yes, the addition of wartime conditions to the mix (which my hypothesis omitted) would be a further disincentive to maintaining the complex livery, so even in 1916/7, the likelihood of a conjunction of all three liveries (other than in works, with the first giving way to the last) seems very limited.  

 

ISTR, though, that Bachmann have done a C in the simplified Wainwright scheme, or at least a simplified version of the ornate livery (not necessarily the same thing), that might well represent a loco overhauled and partially repainted in (say) 1913-15.

 

John

That would be 31-463.

 

271 Wainwright C.jpg

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44 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

.......... just a shame there aren't so many local model train purveyors as there used to be ! :(

 

I used to think the same thing, but I have changed my mind and now disagree with this.

 

I experienced a few model train shops in the late 80s when living in England.  They were fine, but that comes with a serious caveat that I already was seriously interested in the hobby and would put up with the reality that some of tend to forget that they were small, cramped, stores with poor "welcome" factor for a lack of finding a better description.

 

To put it another way, many of them didn't exactly encourage the curious to enter and embrace this hobby.

 

Today's stores, while fewer, are much more professional retail designed to cater not just to the dedicated but also be friendly to those who aren't as confident or merely unsure, and demonstrate that what the hobby now has is fewer better quality retailers - and that in the long run is far better for the ongoing health of the hobby.

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6 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

We are pleased to say the final touches are going onto the production run and these (along with the 5 planks) will be ready to leave the factory next week.

 

 

Have you @rapidoandy any examples shewing the sheet rail. I was thinking maybe 28666 should have one.

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2 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

I used to think the same thing, but I have changed my mind and now disagree with this.

 

I experienced a few model train shops in the late 80s when living in England.  They were fine, but that comes with a serious caveat that I already was seriously interested in the hobby and would put up with the reality that some of tend to forget that they were small, cramped, stores with poor "welcome" factor for a lack of finding a better description.

 

To put it another way, many of them didn't exactly encourage the curious to enter and embrace this hobby.

 

Today's stores, while fewer, are much more professional retail designed to cater not just to the dedicated but also be friendly to those who aren't as confident or merely unsure, and demonstrate that what the hobby now has is fewer better quality retailers - and that in the long run is far better for the ongoing health of the hobby.

 

 

OT but I bet you never went to H&M a few streets down from Euston Station.  Cramped but full to the gunnels with all sorts of gems - and Gems.  I accept as a retail experience it was in some ways lacking but as a source of goods probably impossible to beat at that time.

 

Anyway, back to Rapido wagons - looking very good and I am so glad I pre-ordered.

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