Prototype practice in Lampeter

[Nevermakeit]

There is some fascinating footage of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line and its branches at http://Peoplescollection.wales/items/1400701

 

My query relates to the operations being carried out from 10.59 to 11.30

 

Is anyone able to explain the sequence of movements to a complete novice like me, please? We first see 7437 approaching with what looks like four milk tanks and a guards van. The footage then cuts to what appears to be a goods van, open wagon and three milk tanks being backed down the passenger platform, whilst something seems to be located further down the line. Then it cuts to what appears to be the same vehicles with a guards van attached, still at the platform whilst the engine backs down the other platform with milk tanks still attached, before being seen attaching to the front of the train without the milk tanks it was just moving. 

My questions are:

why wasn't the train being assembled in the goods yard? 

how did the various vehicles appear to change order and position? 

how would I know what valid shunting moves are to re-create them on a layout when I have no knowledge of the historical reality? 

 

Apologies for any errors in use of the terms, and I hope that this is the correct place to post this. 

Thanks 

[Aire Head]

48 minutes ago, Nevermakeit said:

why wasn't the train being assembled in the goods yard? 

Most goods yard wouldn’t have the space to fully assemble the train in the goods yard and in particular on branches like this the wagon would be left on the running lines while the Jesse vary shunting took place.

 

49 minutes ago, Nevermakeit said:

how would I know what valid shunting moves are to re-create them on a layout when I have no knowledge of the historical reality?

It’s a tough one and really does depends on the design of your railway and various different operating methods.

 

Generally shunting was aimed to be done in as few moves and as quickly as possible. As such the train itself will be formed so that the wagons can be detached for the various stations on the route in “cuts” and will be marshalled into the train according to the order and location they are required to be shunted.

 

I can provide some more limited information however I would suggest waiting for the more knowledgeable people of this site who may be able to help more.

[Nevermakeit]

Thanks very much for your response. Happy to receive even limited information at this stage, if it is easily available - eg is it realistic for a van to come in on one train and go out later the same day, or would it be more likely to be around for one or more nights? Would there be any type of record for a given station of what vehicles were delivered and collected? Thanks. 

[Aire Head]

Just now, Nevermakeit said:

Thanks very much for your response. Happy to receive even limited information at this stage, if it is easily available - eg is it realistic for a van to come in on one train and go out later the same day, or would it be more likely to be around for one or more nights? Would there be any type of record for a given station of what vehicles were delivered and collected? Thanks. 

The wagons upon arrival would need to be unloaded within a certain amount of time (typically 48 hours IIRC) otherwise there would be incurred charges. Wagons were kept a track of and reports would be sent to the larger yards and stations saying exactly what was where. 
 

I would consider it unlikely that a vehicle would arrive and leave in the same day at a typical goods yard.
 

For pickup goods trains on my railway I have only one a day in the timetable I will be operating. The train will arrive and collects a certain number of wagons and deposits a certain number of wagons at the station based solely upon my whim. Collected wagons go at the front of the trains and the wagons I drop off are at the back.

 

Over the course of several operations of the timetable the stock is effectively rotated meaning I don’t shunt the same stock all the time while having what I feel is a natural and prototypical look to it’s operation.

 

Of course this works if you are depicting a through station on a mainline with nothing terminating and plenty of diverse through traffic. If your modelling something different you might want to change it up a bit.

[Harlequin]

Here's a map of Lampeter in 1948, the last 6 inch map for the area in the NLS: https://maps.nls.uk/view/101608555

There's a loop between the platforms and 3 small goods sidings.

In general terms the loco is using the loop to run round its train (it's the only place that it can run round at this station), remove the brake van from the back and select specific wagons, vans and tankers to move into and out of the goods yard sidings.

Others can say more about the specifics.

 

[The Stationmaster]

The thing to understand about goods yards was that, especially at smaller stations, they were there to load and unload freight traffic - i.e. they were not shunting yards.  The goods yard would of course have to be shunted when new traffic arrived and when traffic was ready to leave and very often wagons which were already there would have to be moved out of teh way, and subsequently moved back, to allow access to move wagons which they were blocking in or to get a newly arrived wagon to a specific position - say next to a crane or loading bank.

 

What you are seeing at Lampeter in that video is something of an oddity which happened for operational coveneinence and to save running two trains instead of one.  Hence the milk tanks have arrived on a freight trip (which only happened where specially authorised on the Western Region) instead of arriving on a specific Milk Train or attached to a passenger train. and v because of the way the layout was arranged the milk siding could only be shunted from one end - hence the engine being nearer the camera when shunting the milk tanks but at the other end when the train departed.  Having to run round in order to shunt certain sidings was not unusual and almost inevitably it had to be done out on the running lines because run rounds in small yards, such as local goods uyards were very uncommon and wasted space that could be used for revenue earning freight traffic.

 

 

As you can see below - albeit at a small scale - the running line ytrack layout and siding connections at Lampeter was very simple but you will immediately see that the milk siding (at the bottom of the drawing, and the goods yard face in opposite directions so have to be shunted from opposite directions.

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwm/S2093.htm

 

[Harlequin]

That's really interesting! Thanks Mike. (Mike, @The Stationmaster, is a huge help on this forum with more in depth knowledge of G(WR) working than almost anyone.)

 

Notice that the 1948 NLS map doesn't seem to show the milk siding opposite the yard (as far as I can see, anyway).

 

Edit: Further, "A Historical Survey of Great Western Stations Vol. 1" shows that there were four sidings in the yard on the down side in 1913 and that the up siding was present at least from 1913 to c. 1958.

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Harlequin

[clachnaharry]

44 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

As you can see below - albeit at a small scale - the running line ytrack layout and siding connections at Lampeter was very simple but you will immediately see that the milk siding (at the bottom of the drawing, and the goods yard face in opposite directions so have to be shunted from opposite directions.

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwm/S2093.htm

 

The layout begs the question why did the goods yard have a direct connection to the single line, which requires a FPL when it looks like it could have had a trailing connection from the loop which would have considerably simplified the signalling and locking arrangements.

[Nevermakeit]

Thanks very much to both of you. From the video, there also appear to be about five sidings in the goods yard, rather than the two on the map (or signal diagram). I assume they may have been added later? 

[Nevermakeit]

17 minutes ago, clachnaharry said:

The layout begs the question why did the goods yard have a direct connection to the single line, which requires a FPL when it looks like it could have had a trailing connection from the loop which would have considerably simplified the signalling and locking arrangements.

Sorry please could you explain what an FPL is and what a trailing connection would look like? Thank you. 

[Rivercider]

1 hour ago, Nevermakeit said:

Thanks very much for your response. Happy to receive even limited information at this stage, if it is easily available - eg is it realistic for a van to come in on one train and go out later the same day, or would it be more likely to be around for one or more nights? Would there be any type of record for a given station of what vehicles were delivered and collected? Thanks. 

There has already been a lot of useful information given on this thread.

 

There are books that can give some idea of what sort of traffic types and tonnage were seen at particular locations.

I have a number of the Middleton Press books 'Branchline to xxxxx', which often give details of traffic at particular stations, general goods received/forwarded, coal, other minerals, trucks of livestock etc. From this it would be possible to guestimate how many wagons might arrive or depart on an average day.

 

Is yours just a general query, or do you have a particular region or line or station in mind to base a layout on?

 

cheers

[Nevermakeit]

18 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

There has already been a lot of useful information given on this thread.

 

There are books that can give some idea of what sort of traffic types and tonnage were seen at particular locations.

I have a number of the Middleton Press books 'Branchline to xxxxx', which often give details of traffic at particular stations, general goods received/forwarded, coal, other minerals, trucks of livestock etc. From this it would be possible to guestimate how many wagons might arrive or depart on an average day.

 

Is yours just a general query, or do you have a particular region or line or station in mind to base a layout on?

 

cheers

A bit of both really! I have been thinking of modelling Lampeter for some time, but don't know how to operate it correctly (types and quantities of vehicles, valid movements etc), so would consider modelling somewhere else if that information was available. Ideally I would like a tightly defined sequence of movements all referenced to historical information, but I suspect that is not realistic! 

[Michael Hodgson]

46 minutes ago, Nevermakeit said:

Sorry please could you explain what an FPL is and what a trailing connection would look like? Thank you. 

An FPL is a Facing Point Lock.  There would have to be one on any line that passenger trains normally use in the facing direction, that is, approached from the toe of the point.  Generally (there were exceptions) one lever is used to move the point and a second lever then locks it in the required position.

 

A siding that you have to back into (in the normal direction of travel) would be described as a trailing connection, (as against a facing connection, requiring the FPL).  Of course on a single track, trains run both ways, so any siding off a single track running line would need an FPL.   At a crossing loop, you have an Up Line and a Down Line, so it is possible to have a trailing connection there which would save the cost of the FPL.

[Rivercider]

26 minutes ago, Nevermakeit said:

A bit of both really! I have been thinking of modelling Lampeter for some time, but don't know how to operate it correctly (types and quantities of vehicles, valid movements etc), so would consider modelling somewhere else if that information was available. Ideally I would like a tightly defined sequence of movements all referenced to historical information, but I suspect that is not realistic! 

That is not an area that I am at all familiar with, or whether there are many relevant books. 

The Middleton Press book 'Western Main Lines - Aberystwyth to Carmarthen' covers the line.

I have found the Middleton Press books to be a good starting point to learn about a line, I have about a dozen of them covering lines in the West Country.

 

cheers

 

[Harlequin]

52 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

At a crossing loop, you have an Up Line and a Down Line, so it is possible to have a trailing connection there which would save the cost of the FPL.

 

A crossing loop, such as the one at Lampeter, is where a single track line splits into two parallel lines for a distance before rejoining to form the single line again. The section of double track allows trains approaching from opposite directions to pass each in a carefully controlled way (thus, also known as a "passing loop"). Whereas the single track line is bidirectional, each side of a crossing loop is usually directional with trains keeping to the left in the conventional British way. Thus, within the crossing loop, points don't have to be facing the direction of movement and the railway companies tried to avoid facing points wherever possible for safety and economy.

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Harlequin

[Nevermakeit]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

That's really interesting! Thanks Mike. (Mike, @The Stationmaster, is a huge help on this forum with more in depth knowledge of G(WR) working than almost anyone.)

 

Notice that the 1948 NLS map doesn't seem to show the milk siding opposite the yard (as far as I can see, anyway).

 

Edit: Further, "A Historical Survey of Great Western Stations Vol. 1" shows that there were four sidings in the yard on the down side in 1913 and that the up siding was present at least from 1913 to c. 1958.

 

Thank you for the further information. Something to put on the Christmas list! 

[Nevermakeit]

19 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

A crossing loop, such as the one at Lampeter, is where a single track line splits into two parallel lines which then rejoin to form the single line. The section of double track allows trains approaching from opposite directions to pass each in a carefully controlled way (thus, also known as a "passing loop"). Whereas the single track line is bidirectional, each side of a crossing loop is usually directional with trains keeping to the left in the conventional British way. Thus, within the crossing loop, points don't have to be facing the direction of movement and the railway companies tried to avoid facing points wherever possible for safety and economy.

 

Thank you. As mentioned previously, then, I wonder why they built it that way? Would it make a difference if the yard was only entered by trains from Carmarthen, which would be the trailing direction, or would an FPL be required anyway, because it goes on to a single bi-directional line? Thanks. 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, clachnaharry said:

The layout begs the question why did the goods yard have a direct connection to the single line, which requires a FPL when it looks like it could have had a trailing connection from the loop which would have considerably simplified the signalling and locking arrangements.

The SRS diagram has the look of a layout which has been changed a bit over the years - particularly by including the junction some way from the 'box.   The connection to the yard would certainly be uncommon in coming as a facing (as well as a trailing of course) connection off the single line at a station but in some respects it wasn't at a station (too far from the signal box) so almost amounted to a remote connection off the single line..  There might have been some rationalisation at some time although (see below) I doubt there had ever been double line between the station and he junction.  Alas it's an area for which I have next to no original information - most that i do have comes from secondary sources.

 

There was originally a signal box at Aberayron Jcn although it had gone by 1949.  The connection into the goods yard was worked by a ground frame which also operated, or slotted, some signals so was more than couple of levers.   The crossing loop was relatively short overall and I suspect from various old maps that there never was a double line between Lampeter station and Aberayron Jcn although that is not conclusive but Cooke does show it as  single line which I would regard as fairly reliable.  Study of the various old photos which can be found online also adds to my conclusion that there had never been a double line hence the goods yard connection had always been off the single line.

 

27 minutes ago, Nevermakeit said:

Thank you. As mentioned previously, then, I wonder why they built it that way? Would it make a difference if the yard was only entered by trains from Carmarthen, which would be the trailing direction, or would an FPL be required anyway, because it goes on to a single bi-directional line? Thanks. 

I get the impression that it was built that way because it was the easiest and cheapest way of doing it!   The line was built by the Manchester & Milford Railway which never got anywhere near either of the places in its name and it wasn't taken over by the GWR until the early 20th century and the yard connection was basically a siding (several thereof in reality of course) off a single line with the point worked bya. ground frame.

 

The goods yard was presumably built that way round to bring the sidings fairly close to the station and the place it served and with long sidings that meant the connection was some way away.  Looking at an OS map it appears that the goods yard was sited in the most logical (and probably the cheapest) position and that in turn meant it had a trailing connection for trains travelling towards Aberystwyth.  But it could easily be shunted by a train running in either direction as the engine of a southbound train could run round in the crossing loop and thus be at the right end to shunt the train even if it was heading towards Carmarthen.

 

The FPL is there because a point on a single line will inevitably be facing for trains passing in one direction on that line (although the point would be trailing for trains travelling in the opposite direction).   The legal requirement to provide an FPL was in respect of facing points on a line used by passenger trains

[Nevermakeit]

Is an FPL something physical that you could see if you looked at the point, or is it something mechanical in the signal box that affects the operation of the point lever? 

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, Aire Head said:

The wagons upon arrival would need to be unloaded within a certain amount of time (typically 48 hours IIRC) otherwise there would be incurred charges. Wagons were kept a track of and reports would be sent to the larger yards and stations saying exactly what was where. 

 

 

To expand on this, there were different types of general merchandise freight graded according to the service provided.  The most basic, and the price of which was controlled by government as part of the Act of Parliament that authorised the railway in the first place, is 'mileage', charged a rate per mile travelled (no sh*t, Sherlock!).  The customer was responsible for loading the wagons or vans and unloading them at the destination, and would be charged demurrage if the wagon was not available to the railway for re-use or sending empty to somewhere that a load was available for it after (I think you are right) 48 hours.  One of Dr Beeching's objections to the practice was that the railway, as a 'common carrier', was obliged to accept this traffic and the demurrage was low enough to encourage customers to leave the wagons or vans unloaded and use the railway as a cheap warehousing faciltiy.  The common carrier requirement was removed after his infamous Report was published.

 

Next stage up was 'TBCF'. To Be Called For, in which the wagon or van was unloaded by railway staff and the customer, who had delivered it to the depot and was responible for picking it up after it had been unloaded, did the rest; again demurrage was charged and again customers took advantage of cheap warehousing, especially as the railway was responsible for the goods until they had been collected.

 

Then there were the collection and delivery services, where the railway picked the goods up from the customers' premises in a railway owned road vehicle, transferred them to a wagon or van at the dispatching depot, and unloaded them on arrival at the recieving depot on to railway owned road vehicle, then delivered them to the recipient's premises.  As they could charge higher rates for TBCF and and C & D services, which were more profitable, the railways promoted them, and encouraged their use with enthusiastic marketing.  Specialist wagons/vans such as shock aborbing, container, drop side and so on, for specific types of traffic could be used to incur extra charges and provide a choice of services to the customers. 

 

Livestock was also part of the common carrier obligation and the railway provided suitable rolling stock and cattle docks at the depots.  Domestic coal facilites in drops or cells were provided but the wagons belonged to the merchants for many years; by BR days the railway owned them.

 

Other traffic such as milk (since Lampeter has been mentioned!) was subject to contract and not part of this pricing system.  A typical local goods yard has at least 2 separate roads, one used for mileage and house coal, with these being separate in larger yards, and a road for the TBCF/C & D traffic, which will feed into a goods shed or platform, and to an end loading dock that will probably double as the cattle dock.  Handling equipment such as hand cranes will be provided on this road, or perhaps a gantry hoist in the goods shed.  There will be 18 feet minimum space between these different roads or sets of roads, the turning circle of a horse and cart and that of a Scammel Mechanical Horse, the reason it was called that.  There will be a loading gauge at a suitable location that all wagons must pass beneath before they can be moved on to the running lines.

 

Shunting is usually carried out by the pick up loco, which is allowed time in the WTT; as well as positioning the incoming wagons according to the depot foreman's instructions and collecting outgoing traffic, any moving around of stock that the foreman requires (a van has been emptied in the shed but is required for outgoing mileage traffic, for example) is done at the same time.  Should any movement be needed aside from this, horse shunting or pinch barring could be used to shift vehicles around, and for this reason the running lines are protected by a trap point.

 

This is very much a general overview of how things were done, and Lampeter may have been different.  A location with a loop where a loco could run around can be shunted in both directions of course, and might have 'kickback' sidings or private sidings that needed to be shunted in a different direction to the main yard, but many smaller yards had to be shunted in one direction only, which might mean that the pickup would carry the traffic past to the terminus and deliver on the return journey, or pick up on the outward leg and then carry the outgoing traffic past again on the return.

 

Mike The Stationmaster's point about Lampeter's railway history, and the fact that in it's orignial form traffic to or from Carmarthen or Aberystwyth was not a consideration as the line did not serve either of those places almost certainly has a bearing on the way things are laid out here.

 

By and large railways adopted as minimalist as possible an approach to providing sidings and faclilities when they were built, and in later years it was not uncommon to see sidings and facilities that had been added to the original layout as traffic increased, or abandoned overgrown ones that were no longer needed.  Post Beeching, much of this was removed and the land either used as  a park and ride car park or sold off for redevelopment, with general merchandise being concentrated on the main goods depots.  Where space permitted, small goods yards had a generally triangular foot print and were approached by the same road as the passenger booking hall, and this can be traced sometimes on modern maps, a little triangular housing or trading estate showing the ghost of what was there before.

 

[Nevermakeit]

9 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

To expand on this, there were different types of general merchandise freight graded according to the service provided.  The most basic, and the price of which was controlled by government as part of the Act of Parliament that authorised the railway in the first place, is 'mileage', charged a rate per mile travelled (no sh*t, Sherlock!).  The customer was responsible for loading the wagons or vans and unloading them at the destination, and would be charged demurrage if the wagon was not available to the railway for re-use or sending empty to somewhere that a load was available for it after (I think you are right) 48 hours.  One of Dr Beeching's objections to the practice was that the railway, as a 'common carrier', was obliged to accept this traffic and the demurrage was low enough to encourage customers to leave the wagons or vans unloaded and use the railway as a cheap warehousing faciltiy.  The common carrier requirement was removed after his infamous Report was published.

 

Next stage up was 'TBCF'. To Be Called For, in which the wagon or van was unloaded by railway staff and the customer, who had delivered it to the depot and was responible for picking it up after it had been unloaded, did the rest; again demurrage was charged and again customers took advantage of cheap warehousing, especially as the railway was responsible for the goods they had been collected.

 

Then there were the collection and delivery services, where the railway picked the goods up from the customers' premises in a railway owned road vehicle, transferred them to a wagon or van at the dispatching depot, and unloaded them on arrival at the recieving depot on to railway owned road vehicle, then delivered them to the recipient's premises.  As they could charge higher rates for TBCF and and C & D services, which were more profitable, the railways promoted them, and encouraged their use with enthusiastic marketing.  Specialist wagons/vans such as shock aborbing, container, drop side and so on, for specific types of traffic could be used to incur extra charges and provide a choice of services to the customers. 

 

Livestock was also part of the common carrier obligation and the railway provided suitable rolling stock and cattle docks at the depots.  Domestic coal facilites in drops or cells were provided but the wagons belonged to the merchants for many years; by BR days the railway owned them.

 

Other traffic such as milk (since Lampeter has been mentioned!) was subject to contract and not part of this pricing system.  A typical local goods yard has at least 2 separate roads, one used for mileage and house coal, with these being separate in larger yards, and a road for the TBCF/C & D traffic, which will feed into a goods shed or platform, and to an end loading dock that will probably double as the cattle dock.  Handling equipment such as hand cranes will be provided on this road, or perhaps a gantry hoist in the goods shed.  There will be 18 feet minimum space between these different roads or sets of roads, the turning circle of a horse and cart and that of a Scammel Mechanical Horse, the reason it was called that.  There will be a loading gauge at a suitable location that all wagons must pass beneath before they can be moved on to the running lines.

 

Shunting is usually carried out by the pick up loco, which is allowed time in the WTT; as well as positioning the incoming wagons according to the depot foreman's instructions and collecting outgoing traffic, any moving around of stock that the foreman requires (a van has been emptied in the shed but is required for outgoing mileage traffic, for example) is done at the same time.  Should any movement be needed aside from this, horse shunting or pinch barring could be used to shift vehicles around, and for this reason the running lines are protected by a trap point.

 

This is very much a general overview of how things were done, and Lampeter may have been different.  A location with a loop where a loco could run around can be shunted in both directions of course, and might have 'kickback' sidings or private sidings that needed to be shunted in a different direction to the main yard, but many smaller yards had to be shunted in one direction only, which might mean that the pickup would carry the traffic past to the terminus and deliver on the return journey, or pick up on the outward leg and then carry the outgoing traffic past again on the return.

 

Mike The Stationmaster's point about Lampeter's railway history, and the fact that in it's orignial form traffic to or from Carmarthen or Aberystwyth was not a consideration as the line did not serve either of those places almost certainly has a bearing on the way things are laid out here.

 

By and large railways adopted as minimalist as possible an approach to providing sidings and faclilities when they were built, and in later years it was not uncommon to see sidings and facilities that had been added to the original layout as traffic increased, or abandoned overgrown ones that were no longer needed.  Post Beeching, much of this was removed and the land either used as  a park and ride car park or sold off for redevelopment, with general merchandise being concentrated on the main goods depots.  Where space permitted, small goods yards had a generally triangular foot print and were approached by the same road as the passenger booking hall, and this can be traced sometimes on modern maps, a little triangular housing or trading estate showing the ghost of what was there before.

 

Thank you. Useful information about the use of the goods shed and spacing of sidings. I have seen photos of a wagon-based crane at the end of a siding at Lampeter - is that likely to have been based there for use in the yard, or was it just there on the occasion of the photo? Even when you have the evidence, it is difficult to make sense of it sometimes! 

[The Johnster]

There were travelling cranes that could be sent out to yards as and when required, and I suspect that this may have been the case in this photo, either because Lampeter had no lifting gear or (more likely) a higher lifting capacity for a particular job was needed.  This was one of the things that Control organised in conjuntion with information provided by the goods clerks at the loading depot.  Other specific requirements, such as sliding or end loading doors, were handled in the same way, but wagons or vans so equipped could be used for 'normal' traffic as well if they were what was handy and not needed immediately elsewhere. 

 

Foreign empty wagons and vans on hand were to be returned to their owning railway by the next available service heading in that direction, preferably loaded but empty if no load was available, until the general pooling arrangements which I think dated from 1936.  After this, branding started to appear on specialist stock such as shocvans, conflats, end door wagons and such to specify that these were not pool and therefore not to be sent loaded or empty to destinations on your own railway if they were foreigners; their owners wanted them back.  Vacuum fitted 'XP' wagons were chased up by their owners as well; the GW and LNER used the XP markings, as did BR post nationalisation, while the LMS and Southern branded their vacuum fitted and any other non-pool with 'N' (for non-pool) on the solebars.  Your own company's empties were subject to your own Control,  and might be retained on hand in expectation of traffic next week if not required elsewhere.  Post nationalisation, of course, this was simply altered to a nationwide system.

 

I run my own layout to a timetable and, with this in mind, am able to keep vehicles on hand over several timetable days or, alternatively, organise ad hoc collections as tail traffic for XP wagons or even a special trip for ones I decide are urgently needed elsewhere, all part of the day to day operation of a 1950s branch terminus going on in my head.  I can also keep unloaded mileage vehicles, which are a problem as the yard space is limited and they get in the way, as well.  I find this sort of imaginary aspect to operating fascinating; not all my modelling actually physically exists in the corpereal sense, even on the modelled part of the layout!

 

I should mention for the sake of completeness, because I neglected to earlier, that even the smallest goods depots would have secure lockup facilities to keep unloaded TBCF items that had not yet been CF and were still TB and other valuables in overnight or when the yard was not open.  Another feature especially in rural areas was the Provender Store, raised covered storage for animal feed provided by the railway but rented out to local farmers' associations, co-operatives, and similar organisations.  These were often prefabricated concrete structures, and Ratio do a good model of them.

Edited June 2, 2021 by The Johnster

[Nevermakeit]

18 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

There were travelling cranes that could be sent out to yards as and when required, and I suspect that this may have been the case in this photo, either because Lampeter had no lifting gear or (more likely) a higher lifting capacity for a particular job was needed.  This was one of the things that Control organised in conjuntion with information provided by the goods clerks at the loading depot.  Other specific requirements, such as sliding or end loading doors, were handled in the same way, but wagons or vans so equipped could be used for 'normal' traffic as well if they were what was handy and not needed immediately elsewhere. 

 

Foreign empty wagons and vans on hand were to be returned to their owning railway by the next available service heading in that direction, preferably loaded but empty if no load was available, until the general pooling arrangements which I think dated from 1936.  After this, branding started to appear on specialist stock such as shocvans, conflats, end door wagons and such to specify that these were not pool and therefore not to be sent loaded or empty to destinations on your own railway if they were foreigners; their owners wanted them back.  Vacuum fitted 'XP' wagons were chased up by their owners as well; the GW and LNER used the XP markings, as did BR post nationalisation, while the LMS and Southern branded their vacuum fitted and any other non-pool with 'N' (for non-pool) on the solebars.  Your own company's empties were subject to your own Control,  and might be retained on hand in expectation of traffic next week if not required elsewhere.  Post nationalisation, of course, this was simply altered to a nationwide system.

 

I run my own layout to a timetable and, with this in mind, am able to keep vehicles on hand over several timetable days or, alternatively, organise ad hoc collections as tail traffic for XP wagons or even a special trip for ones I decide are urgently needed elsewhere, all part of the day to day operation of a 1950s branch terminus going on in my head.  I can also keep unloaded mileage vehicles, which are a problem as the yard space is limited and they get in the way, as well.  I find this sort of imaginary aspect to operating fascinating; not all my modelling actually physically exists in the corpereal sense, even on the modelled part of the layout!

 

I should mention for the sake of completeness, because I neglected to earlier, that even the smallest goods depots would have secure lockup facilities to keep unloaded TBCF items that had not yet been CF and were still TB and other valuables in overnight or when the yard was not open.  Another feature especially in rural areas was the Provender Store, raised covered storage for animal feed provided by the railway but rented out to local farmers' associations, co-operatives, and similar organisations.  These were often prefabricated concrete structures, and Ratio do a good model of them.

Thank you. This is very helpful. As someone with a marked lack of imagination, and a tendency to the literal, I would find it difficult to come up with a reason for wagons staying or moving other than my whim. Is there documentation of actual moves or some way of generating realistic moves? Thanks 

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, Nevermakeit said:

Is an FPL something physical that you could see if you looked at the point, or is it something mechanical in the signal box that affects the operation of the point lever? 

Third from bottom, photo entitled "Overhead shot...":

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/pointrodding.html

 

The FPL is on the left, most of the workings being hidden by the sheet metal cover. It's essentially a big sliding bolt. Compare with the trailing point on the right. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Wheatley

[Nevermakeit]

10 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Third from bottom, photo entitled "Overhead shot...":

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/pointrodding.html

 

The FPL is on the left, most of the workings being hidden by the sheet metal cover. It's essentially a big sliding bolt. Compare with the trailing point on the right. 

Thank you - very informative. Are they available in model form? Thanks