Planning a Western Region branchline in 4mm

[Standby]

I'm learning the ropes and getting more of an idea for my layout.

Western Region branchline running early diesels with the odd steam loco, so 1960's. I would like to operate to some kind of time table with a few passenger trains, also goods trains and shunting.

I have a 12'6' x 10' room to play with, so I think I can get away with a loop around the room eventually, but really want to focus on the through station to start.

I keep coming back to Wivelscombe Station in Devon as a starting point. I think it will fit in the space I have and isn't too ambitious. 

 

 

This is how I think it might fit in the space I have as a first draft. The door to the room is bottom right, so I'll need to have a lift out section there.

 

 

I don't want to cram too much in, but also want the eventual layout to be interesting to operate. I also have potential for a terminus at the other end of the room... but that's another discussion for some other time.

 

So really looking for thoughts on the through station and how it fits in with the outer loop.

 

Neil

 

[Harlequin]

Hi Neil,

 

Wiveliscombe looks lovely with a good array of sidings to shunt.

 

What is the track that loops around behind the station for? If it's hidden you'll have a difficult time getting access to the track when things go wrong and it takes up space that you could use to make the sidings longer. It also creates some junctions in your single track main line that you have to justify if they are visible or you have to hide them.

 

You've inserted a new facing siding in the passing loop, which would be more likely to be trailing in the real world but of course sometimes facing sidings did crop up for one reason or other.

 

How do you imagine the fiddle yard being laid out?

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Harlequin

[Standby]

Phil, thanks for your comments.

 

32 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

What is the track that loops around behind the station for? If it's hidden you'll have a difficult time getting access to the track when things go wrong and it takes up space that you could use to make the sidings longer. It also creates some junctions in your single track main line that you have to justify if they are visible or hide.

 

41 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

How do you image the fiddle yard being laid out?

 

I like the idea of being able to run a train around a loop rather than just having an end to end layout. 

I would probably have the top left of the loop go behind thick vegetation / trees / shallow cutting, something like that so it is accessible from above. Maybe not the most realistic, but a compromise I'm willing to make.

As for the junctions, I'm not sure if the middle left and right sides of the layout will be scenic. The focus will certainly be on the top and bottom of the layout.

I haven't given much thought to a fiddle yard at the moment. Certainly I have room, maybe at the expense of a small terminus at the bottom of the layout. If I can get away without a fiddle yard and run a session from trains set up at the through station and a terminus at the bottom of the layout, that would be ideal.

All good points to consider and exactly why I'm posting my ideas whilst I'm very wet behind the ears! 

 

Neil

[Chimer]

If I did have that track behind the station, I would bring the station forward a bit and have 3 (say) storage loops behind a lowish backscene (I say storage loops rather than fiddle yard, 'cos fiddling would be tricky).  With maybe a "scenic cassette" on the near edge of the board across the bottom to allow for stock exchange.  And I'd position the potential terminus at the bottom outside the roundy and maybe an inch or two higher - outside because it allows the tracks to the terminus buffer stops to run right into the bottom left corner, higher for visual interest.

 

It does have a spacious feel to it, thanks to you resisting the temptation to cram too much in - a lesson I often think I should learn from .....

Edited June 5, 2021 by Chimer
Insert "near"

[Flying Pig]

3 minutes ago, Standby said:

I like the idea of being able to run a train around a loop rather than just having an end to end layout. 

 

But you already have that with your through station - no need for an extra loop behind it.

 

Could you place the station on a sweeping curve across the top left of the room, with the sidings falling naturally into the corner?  As you have it, the layout is rather square in its overall aspect

 

Signal diagram on the Signalling Record Society site: https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwe/S769.htm

[Standby]

13 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

But you already have that with your through station - no need for an extra loop behind it.

Ha, yes, you're right. I think this is where I've ended up after playing around with lots of different ideas. So you're right, there really is no need for it. Sometimes these things need pointing out!

 

I think my initial thoughts were to be able to have a train on the loop off scene behind the station.

 

13 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

Could you place the station on a sweeping curve across the top left of the room, with the sidings falling naturally into the corner?  As you have it, the layout is rather square in its overall aspect

Good point, it would look better. Thank you.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Standby

[Harlequin]

Flying Pig has hit the nail on the head with the curve and using a corner for the goods sidings.

 

I prefer to have an off stage, non-scenic fiddle yard where you can have all kinds of stock standing around (that wouldn't look realistic in a scenic area). Somewhere that you're not afraid to reach in and move things around. Then maximise the scenic area opposite as much as you can - it should allow a bit of open countryside beyond the station which helps with the sense of space and allows you to perform shunting moves without the loco disappearing off-scene.

 

So I would suggest using the lower half of the room for a true fiddle yard instead of another scenic area with a terminus. (That also fits with the idea of not cramming too much in and not trying to do too much at once.)

 

It's sensible to have the FY next to the lifting section across the door because both things are non-scenic and one can just run into the other. The technical challenge in a small-ish room with an inward opening door is how to accommodate the lifting section, ideally allowing the door to open inwards when it's down, keep the track on the lifting section as simple as possible (to minimise alignment problems) and do all that without compromising the capacity of the FY...

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Harlequin

[Standby]

37 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

The technical challenge in a small-ish room with an inward opening door is how to accommodate the lifting section

Fortunately the door opens outwards. I do have an inward opening window though(?!?), not that affects anything. - the quirks of living in an 400 year old cottage!

 

I'm going to play around with the idea of a curved station.

 

Thank you for all the comments so far.

[The Johnster]

I would definitely endorse the 'station on a curve with sidings in a corner' approach, especially as the actual Wivelescombe lends itself to this form very easily.  Assuming your plan grid is in square metres, this brings your train length to about 3 coaches plus 43xx clear in the loop; photos of the line show mostly 43xx moguls but 2251s, 5101s, and 4575 small praries were used as well.  I would lay out the fiddle yard to provide room for a 3 coach passenger and 9 standard length wagon plus a van freight in each direction, meaning four roads of at least the same length as the loop at the station., and a couple each to each side for shorter trains.  This will allow 8 trains to be accommodated on the layout at once, 9 at a push (one in the station), and a good bit of biodiversity.  Diesels can be 117 dmu (or 119/120 if anyone ever makes one), Warship, 'Baby' Warship, and Hymek. 

 

Passenger stock can be Hornby Hawkworths, bow ended Colletts, and Bachmann Sunhine Colletts, mostly in lined maroon for your period.  DMUs can be bewhiskered or syp-ed, and the GW toads were replaced by BR standard or LMS 20tonners after 1963.  If anybody eventually condecends to producing a 120, a continual high scorer on wishlists, both the earlier and 1961 4-character headcode type are suitable.  This route used corridor stock by and large, though not exclusively, because the journey times made it desirable to provide access to toilets on the trains.

 

You seem not to have considered your fiddle yard as yet, and I am wondering what the 'bottom' siding is for.  The fiddle yard and it's approach pointwork is going to take up about half of your continuous circuit, but could be replaced with a cassette if there is sufficient width; this will allow more scenery but bear in mind that it will take a lot of width, will need space behind the layout to slide into and be pretty heavy, needing some serious support.  Leave enough space between the fy roads to be able to easily get your hands down inbetween them to access stock without knocking the stock on the adjacent roads out of line.  About 2 feet is usually considered the extreme for reaching and carefully handling stock, 60cm, and you need to keep this in mind for access to the goods yard as well, especially if it is going to go into a corner.

 

You really need a fiddle yard IMHO.  Running trains from the station round the loop back to the station restricts you to 3 trains, one running between each loop and one held in the goods yard.  The 'off stage' storage of a fy will give you much more capacity and flexibility; up and down passengers, up and down through goods, up and down pickups, a daily milk train, excursions to Ilfracombe, exploiting the variety and biodiverstiy of the actual branch.  This was IIRC a 'blue' route, but TTBOMK did not feature Manors.  It might be possible to extend the bottom siding in front of the fy (I'm sort of assuming this is where it's going to be) to provide a scenic continuous run for train watching, but this would be a luxury IMHO and I would only undertake it if the fy was not compromised by it. 

 

We do not know where the door is, which is pertinent even if it opens outwards as the lifting section must be here.  An alternative is to have the track running on a shelf fixed to this side of the door, but you will need to bolt it from inside the layout room and train the familiy to knock before rattling it while you are running trains; a retaining wall to catch derailments before they are heading for the floor is advised!

Edited June 5, 2021 by The Johnster

[Standby]

I've removed the upper loop and shifted the station round and down to the left (excuse the straight platform, I couldn't bend it),  I think that looks better. I'll play around with the curvature of the station and track to give it more of a continuous curve.

 

I've moved the engine shed to a kickback at the top right.

 

This does leave me with a space in front of the track to the right, where I've left the point and sidings 'loose'. I'm wondering if I could make use of this space?

 

 

[KingEdwardII]

Interestingly, the photos I have of the Taunton to Barnstaple line in the 50s and 60s show 4 coach trains, typically behind a Mogul - one example just pulling out of Wiveliscombe.

 

It is worth remembering that this was one of the classic holiday lines, with summer Saturday trains serving Ilfracombe. Such trains would typically be longer and include exotic stock like restaurant cars. Of course, you would need suitable space to host such trains "off scene" if you decided to model them.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[KingEdwardII]

This website has some very interesting photos of the Taunton to Barnstaple line plus an undated timetable:

 

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-barnstaple.html

 

I am struck by just how busy a place Dulverton was - it was the junction for the Exe valley line south through Tiverton. 3 platforms to accommodate the Exe valley trains - and pictures showing a train at each of the platforms at the same time...

 

Yours, Mike.

[Harlequin]

19 hours ago, Standby said:

I've removed the upper loop and shifted the station round and down to the left (excuse the straight platform, I couldn't bend it),  I think that looks better. I'll play around with the curvature of the station and track to give it more of a continuous curve.

 

I've moved the engine shed to a kickback at the top right.

 

This does leave me with a space in front of the track to the right, where I've left the point and sidings 'loose'. I'm wondering if I could make use of this space?

 

 

 

Hi Neil, You're onto a good thing but it definitely needs to be smoothed out!

 

The way you've oriented it, you do get some plain track in open countryside to do your shunting. Great stuff. I'd say keep it simple, don't try to fill the space up with railway, just have open fields and hedges in front of the line, just like the real Wiveliscombe.

 

And on the subject of keeping it simple, the engine shed is a bit anachronistic. To justify it on a small through station, you'd have to say either that the station used to be a terminus in earlier days, or that it's near the junction with the main line and the original company shedded it's own loco there before amalgamation, or some similar back-story. Even so, it almost certainly wouldn't have been connected directly to the running line like that and wouldn't still be in use in the 1960's.

 

You could better connect it to the east end of the down loop, a trailing connection, and site it where your floating track currently is, but it would still be difficult to justify.

 

Alternatively, you could connect Wiveliscombe's loading bank siding there. That would be more realistic, use that space in a less in-your-face way and make shunting more interesting because it would face the opposite way to all the other goods sidings.

 

Edit: P.S. You're so lucky to have an outward opening door! That will make things a lot easier.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Harlequin

[Standby]

34 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Alternatively, you could connect Wiveliscombe's loading bank siding there. That would be more realistic, use that space in a less in your face way and make shunting more interesting because it would face the other way to all the other goods sidings.

Ok, I like the potential for more interesting shunting. 

Now I need to educate myself on the difference between the goods shed and loading bank and how they integrate. Like most people just starting out I've heard of a goods shed, but not a loading bank. Basic stuff, I'm sure, but all part of the learning process.

The more I research the more I realise how much there is to learn!

 

Neil

[Rivercider]

I believe there was a loco shed at Wiveliscombe in the early days as for a while it was the terminus of the line. I think the shed was on the up side as a kick-back off the top siding in the yard. 

It would probably be difficult to justify one still being there much later unless there is a good reason.

 

Some random ideas - assuming a Devon and Somerset Railway location.

Perhaps there is an early train to the junction (Taunton) that starts from there? Or an early train starts from there to Dulverton then down the Exe Valley line to Exeter?

Or is a banker loco required for freight traffic (unlikely)?

Although most of the freight traffic was agricultural I think there was some mineral traffic along the line. There was a mineral branch from near South Molton, ( edit - the New Florence Mineral Tramway was actually narrow gauge, but connected with a siding east of South Molton to load iron ore until the late 1890s) perhaps there is one near your station. In this instance the locally shedded loco (a small tank engine) loco collects empties detached off a passing freight train and takes them to the mineral branch (actually a siding in your fiddle yard) then bringing loaded wagons from the mineral branch back to the station, from there to attach to passing freight trains?

 

cheers  

Edited June 6, 2021 by Rivercider
additional information

[The Johnster]

Sorry, but I think a loco shed is pushing Rule 1 too far for credibility here, even if the layout is not intended to represent Wiveliscombe with complete accuracy.  And it adds little to the operating potential, being  ‘dead space’ where a loco either hides from view or is absent altogether.   The stationn was a terminus for a short while as Rivercider says and apparently had a turntable, later moved to Barnstaple; not sure about an actual shed. 
 

A goods shed is self explanatory; an end loading bank or dock is a small platform which extends around the end of a siding so that wagons or vans with end doors can be accessed.  They are often extensions of cattle docks and there are two here, at the ends of the middle two sidings.   The back siding is probably the ‘mileage’ road; mileage traffic is loaded or unloaded by the customer into his own road vehicle and not handled by railway staff, and is subject to the lowest rate, fixed by government as part of the railways’ ‘common carrier’ obligation under the Acts of Parliament that authorised in a similar way to the penny-a-mile all stations ‘parliamentary’ trains that were at one time required to run each day in each direction.  This obligation ended in 1961 with a new Transport Act, but the sidings continued in use until the final closure. 
 

There would also have been coal cells on either this mileage road or the one next to it, the space between them being sufficient to accommodate the 18’ turning circle of a horse drawn cart.  
 

The loading bank at the Venn Cross end of the station is a simple platform whose purpose is not stated, but in this part of the world I would hazard that it is for loading milk churns into siphons. 

[Flying Pig]

2 hours ago, Standby said:

Now I need to educate myself on the difference between the goods shed and loading bank and how they integrate.

 

No problem as there's a live thread on the subject: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/165032-shunting-query/

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Flying Pig

[Standby]

Thank you The Johnster for all the info, you’re evidently very knowledgeable, more knowledgeable than I’ll ever be! Lots more to consider.

 

I want to be careful to balance accuracy versus rule 1. The depth one can go into is incredible and as a newbie certainly overwhelming at times. I also need to make sure I don’t get so bogged down in the detail I never make a start. 

 

17 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

No problem as there's a live thread on the subject: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/165032-shunting-query/

 

 

 

Thanks for the link. I’ll check that out

 

Neil
 

 

[MikeHohn]

It would be aesthetically pleasing if  you could maintain a gentle curve of tracks and platforms through the station, similar to the prototype. 

[The Johnster]

I don’t claim to be very knowledgeable, Neil, but have picked up a little over the 65 years I have been messing around with little electric trains and nearly a decade as a freight guard at Canton in the 70s.  There are plenty here with much greater levels of erudition in such matters, and they often correct me when I get things wrong, which I not infrequently do for which I am mostly grateful and appreciative. 
 

I’m sure nobody will mind if I point out Stationmaster (Mike) as an authority on rules & regs, signalling, and operating practice in general; he is very experienced and knowledgeable at a high managerial level on the real railway, and ChrisF as the go-to man for GW and WR coach matters. Both of these,  and many others, know their stuff much better than I do!

[Standby]

I've tidied up the track plan and added the loading bank (in blue). I've kept the kickback siding I added earlier as there was actually one here at some point. If nothing else I quite fancy modelling a section of disused track.

 

Whilst my layout is based on Wiveliscombe, it will a fictitious location. After all there is a great layout of Wiveliscombe already.

 

[Harlequin]

Hopefully constructive criticism:

• The goods sidings need to be spaced out from each other better. There needs to be room to get a lorry up to the goods shed loading doors (although you could fudge that if your shed has doors in the end rather than the back). There also probably needs to be some room between two of the sidings but it depends how you imagine vans and wagons would be unloaded - where the lorry access is.
• The goods sidings should really be longer if you can do it, not just for realism but for shunting play value.
• The track should run right though the goods shed so that a few vans can be pushed through before that whole siding needs to be shunted again. That means of course that the track and shed have to be exactly aligned and it's worth getting that right now because it could upset the whole plan.
• The curvature of the platforms is still not as continuous as it could be. I think you might be worrying about fitting it on the baseboards too much? It might be better to work out a nicely curvy station and then figure out the baseboards to support it. A bit of give and take is always needed, of course.

Have you thought about the landscape and how the scenic breaks will work at either end?

Edited June 7, 2021 by Harlequin

[Standby]

8 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

The goods sidings need to be spaced out from each other better. There needs to be room to get a lorry up to the goods shed loading doors (although you could fudge that if your shed has doors in the end rather than the back). There also probably needs to be some room between two of the sidings but it depends how you imagine vans and wagons would be unloaded - where the lorry access is.

I can work on this.

 

9 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

The goods sidings should really be longer if you can do it, not just for realism but for shunting play value.

 

10 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

The track should run right though the goods shed so that a few vans can be pushed through before that whole siding needs to be shunted again. That means of course that the track and shed have to be exactly aligned and it's worth getting that right on the plan because it could upset the whole plan.

They can both be done.

 

11 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

The curvature of the platforms is still not as continuous as it could be. I think you might be worrying about fitting it on the baseboards too much? It might be better to work out a nicely curvy station and then figure out the baseboards to support it. A bit of give and take is always needed, of course.

The main consideration for me is trying to keep the baseboard between 2 - 3 feet deep. I did play around with the station, continuing the curve round, but I wasn't happy with it.  The room is also used as stock room for the stuff I sell on eBay, so I do need to make sure I can reach the walls either side of the layout, not so much in the top corners as the ceiling is only 5 foot high at that end of the room (wonky old cottage, it's 10 foot at the other end!). There's also windows to the left and right along the top of the layout. I'm 6' with long arms, but need to be realistic!

 

Always happy to hear other peoples thoughts. Thank you.

 

 

[Standby]

I've created more space around the station and goods yard, I think that was really a priority. I've added a car and a truck in green for an idea of scale. This also allows me to model a bit more of a town scene.

 

The points for the sidings and kickback have ben moved and the 2 siding points replaced with a 3 way point. I'm aware that 2 sidings might be a better idea... They can be longer if needed.

 

I also have to bear in mind where the points will (or won't) fit on the baseboards. Although this layout will stay at home I do want to be able to move it should I need to - moving house, or whatever.

 

[KingEdwardII]

I think you could have the platforms further round the curve to the left and still keep to 2' width baseboards - assuming that the larger squares are 1' in size. I have managed to do this with my station that I've placed mainly on a curve.

 

Another thought to get longer sidings is to reverse the order of the points for the sidings and the goods bay - something like this existed at Dulverton and can be seen in some of the photos I linked to above.

 

Yours, Mike.