GWR Dean Era Coach Livery

[Edwardian]

21 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Try Ysbyty Ystwyth. Not good if you ever need to put transfers on a wagon from there - or a coach destination board, though as it didn't have a station not too much chance.

Anyway, glad we sorted out the destination board, and I am still dreading the though if repainting the three GWR carriages sitting on my workbench in pre 1908 chocolate and cream. But at least now some excellent reference photos.

Jonathan

There, I got the thread almost back on topic.

 

Years ago, in an abortive attempt to return to modelling, I built and painted a set of Ratio 4-wheelers. It took me forever to line the beading, though, in the Ignorance of Youth, I did so in chocolate, and there was no yellow edging or distance line.  I dread returning to them!

[Philou]

22 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Philou will remember the roar that could be heard across the city when hot slag form East Moors steelworks was tipped into the sea, resulting in an explosion of steam.

 

Oh yes! And if the wind was in the right direction you'd get the sight (light reflected in the clouds) and the smells! During foggy weather there'd be the dulcet sounds of the fog-horn too - and that was miles away on Flat Holm.

 

Sorry, I drifted off again .................

 

These coaches ...... I can see why people tend not to go into too much detail in painting 4mm scale models - the challenge is there but I doubt if I would have the patience - especially the circular 'blobs' around the ducket! I know a chap though who probably could crack it seeing the very fine work he does on Castle Aching .............

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Edited June 7, 2021 by Philou

[The Johnster]

I visited Flat Holm some years ago; fascinating place.  The fog horn and diesel powered air compressor are still there, and in working order.  This is a long way from Dean coaches, though!

Edited June 7, 2021 by The Johnster

[Regularity]

6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

More vowels than I was expecting

Possibly because the idea that the only vowels in an alphabet could be a, e, i, o or u is a very Modern English way of looking at it: we used to have more, and there are hints and remnants of it in the langue, particularly in British super-dialect compared to (US) American, such as "oe", "ae" and "ea", and of course, "ou" in words like "colour". We used to have loads more, the French use accents, and the Germans umlauts, and so on. In Welsh, Y is a vowel - and in English, it is classed as a "semi-vowel" (think of words such as "fly" - and why not?)

[Philou]

And here in France 'y' is classed as a vowel - but 'h' is rarely sounded - think 'otel and they just can't get their tongues around the 'th' sound, 'z' is about the best - beats the 'f' oft used in the UK though. @Regularity You've missed the mutations that can occur in Welsh. For those that don't know - as an example - under certain grammatical conditions Pontypridd could become Mhontypridd - oh yes, butti.

[Compound2632]

Good to have the black line on the panel side of the "gold" line confirmed, together with the lining on the beading adjacent to ventilator panels, which I never doubted.

 

On 05/06/2021 at 22:43, billbedford said:

Did the GWR really paint their drop light frames and bolections signal red?

 

On 06/06/2021 at 14:43, Edwardian said:

I have seen references to them being Venetian Red and also varnished mahogany. 

 

I think one has to allow for variation in lighting conditions making the red seem brighter than it actually is - ditto the chocolate. One would have to see them in the flesh - I'm sorry I wasn't able to.

 

I would imagine that droplights and bolections started out varnished mahogany and got overpainted venetian red when too old to take re-varnishing.

[Regularity]

3 hours ago, Philou said:

You've missed the mutations that can occur in Welsh.

No, I left out from mentioning them: too much thread drift already.

[webbcompound]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Good to have the black line on the panel side of the "gold" line confirmed, together with the lining on the beading adjacent to ventilator panels, which I never doubted.

 

Doesn't the GWR painting bible tell us that this was only really recorded on a post grouping instruction to a film company?

Edited June 7, 2021 by webbcompound

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, webbcompound said:

Doesn't the GWR painting bible tell us that this was only really recorded on a post grouping instruction to a film company?

 

Yes, that was posted - I think on the Hattons thread - the document was drawn up several decades after the pre-1908 fully lined chocolate and cream livery was abandoned - 30s or even post-war? The lining round the ventilator panels is clearly visible in period photos.

 

 

[K14]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Good to have the black line on the panel side of the "gold" line confirmed

 

I'm *not* having a go, but...

 

This is the kind of thing that would only ever be questioned by people with zero understanding of the practicalities of the job...

 

The joint between the mouldings & the panel is guaranteed to be wonky at points so attempting to apply a line exactly on the join will end up with the lining brush (3/8" x 3") catching & veering off-track as it wishes. This causes Bad Language (as well as an awkward cleanup) & is to be avoided. In my experience, lining brushes can be prone to hissy fits & it doesn't do to encourage them. Sword Stripers are generally better behaved, but are more suited to narrow, orange lines.

 

As long as the joint is reasonably good (for which read: smooth) then the third & fourth fingers can follow the moulding as a template; the width of the line is set by the brush (and the pressure applied to it) and it'll naturally find its course part way up the moulding, leaving a natural gap. The fit of the mouldings is critical in producing a neat job; 1941's are pretty reasonable, 933's less so & the SRM's were awful & required a *lot* of work to bring up to scratch.

 

Pete S.

[corneliuslundie]

And that is at 12 in to the foot. Now translate that to 4 mm.

Anyway, there is a limit to what one can actually see from 2 ft on a 4 mm model.

Very nice looking restored carriages though.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, K14 said:

 

I'm *not* having a go, but...

 

This is the kind of thing that would only ever be questioned by people with zero understanding of the practicalities of the job...

 

The joint between the mouldings & the panel is guaranteed to be wonky at points so attempting to apply a line exactly on the join will end up with the lining brush (3/8" x 3") catching & veering off-track as it wishes. This causes Bad Language (as well as an awkward cleanup) & is to be avoided. In my experience, lining brushes can be prone to hissy fits & it doesn't do to encourage them. Sword Stripers are generally better behaved, but are more suited to narrow, orange lines.

 

As long as the joint is reasonably good (for which read: smooth) then the third & fourth fingers can follow the moulding as a template; the width of the line is set by the brush (and the pressure applied to it) and it'll naturally find its course part way up the moulding, leaving a natural gap. The fit of the mouldings is critical in producing a neat job; 1941's are pretty reasonable, 933's less so & the SRM's were awful & required a *lot* of work to bring up to scratch.

 

Pete S.

 

Thanks - it's very helpful to have the story from the horse's mouth, if you will pardon the expression. I'd been looking at it purely from an aesthetic point of view - a darker line is necessary between the gold and the cream (and even between the gold and brown), otherwise the gold would be "lost" - not stand out. Compare the narrow dark blue lines either side of the silver bands on a blue Coronation pacific - vermilion for the gold bands of the red Coronations.

 

A modeller's method is to line all the beading "gold" and then add thinner lines of black on top, whereas - if I've understood correctly - on the full-size vehicles the beading is painted black and then the "gold" lining is added on top. The treatment of the brown ends emphasises this.

 

This does raise a question for Midland / LMS lining, where the gold line is flanked by thin vermillion lines - was a broad vermillion line applied, with gold over, or were the vermilion lines put on after the gold?

 

The Didcot Dean carriages are masterpieces of the restorer's art, the lining in particular being a tour de force. But, equally not "having a go", can I ask a question of the sort that often niggles me: how confident are you that the methods you have used are the same as those that were being used in the Swindon carriage paint shop 120 years ago?

Edited June 8, 2021 by Compound2632

[K14]

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This does raise a question for Midland / LMS lining, where the gold line is flanked by thin vermillion lines - was a broad vermillion line applied, with gold over, or were the vermilion lines put on after the gold?

 

I could see either method as being valid...

 

Gold leaf can be obtained in roll form & in preset widths.  I've never used it, so can't vouch for how clean the edges are. Normal gold leaves have a very slightly ragged edge, so I'd expect roll leaf to be the same.

 

A broad red line followed by gilding would probably be quickest to apply, with the challenge of then running a line of gold size exactly up the middle, but gilding followed by pinstriping would tidy up the edges of the gilding. I believe Midland lining was nominally 1/2", so that might suggest the second method if they were being tight on leaf. Swindon used a nominal 3/8" line, so *may* have used 1/2" leaf & scrapped the outer 1/16" edges (collected & cashed in at a goldsmiths?).

 

Sight of an original section of Midland lining would settle things in about 30 seconds.

 

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

But, equally not "having a go", can I ask a question of the sort that often niggles me: how confident are you that the methods you have used are the same as those that were being used in the Swindon carriage paint shop 120 years ago?

 

Fairly highly confident, as the methods of application are well established, & the basic materials haven't changed much. The formulation of gold size may have been altered, & I'd expect the paints to have a 'modern' synthetic alkyd base, but that's about it - the rest of the materials are very traditional. For instance, it's still quite possible to buy brushes made with bird quill ferrules.

 

I dare say it's possible to line a moulded coach using modern plastic masking tape instead of trusting to muscle memory, but it'd take forever & look rubbish around the corners. Railcar 22 was a "tape job", but that was because it was sprayed in 2-pack car enamel. It was that experience that pushed me to learning how to do it "properly".

 

The one thing that *is* different is speed. I'd have got my cards in the Factory for being way too slow, proper time-served people are quick because time=money. for a modern-day example there's this gentleman:—

 

 

Blank to fully lined in a little over three minutes, one brush & one guideline.

 

Pete S.

Edited June 9, 2021 by K14

[Compound2632]

@K14, thanks again, that's fascinating. I think that as your video shows, practice and being paid (a pittance, I'll bet) to do the job (even while someone's talking and pointing and generally getting in the way) makes all the difference; one can see that a degree of elaboration that seems to us an immensely time-consuming and expensive business was straightforward and relatively cheap over a century ago!

 

I'm afraid I don't have a photo that shows original Midland/LMS lining in sufficient detail, quite apart from the problem of the vermillion appearing black with 19th century photographic emulsions. Looking again in Midland Style, I see that the vermillion line between the gold and the crimson lake was omitted after 1885, leaving just the line between the gold and black, a point I'd forgotten. That does seem to imply that the vermillion lines were applied after the gold - Ralph Lacy's drawing shows ⁵⁄₁₆" gold lines and ⅛" vermillion but and S&DJR carriage (nominally the same lining style) measured in 1925 had ⅜" gold, which suggests some variation in practice. Or perhaps the extra ¹⁄₁₆" compensated for the omission of the vermillion line? The gold line ran from the flat surface of the beading to about 45° round the curve.

 

This seems to be one of the more elaborate liveries - most seem to have been content to paint the beading in the body colour, with just a gold / yellow line on the curve of the beading - although according to LNWR Liveries, their ½" or ⅝" gold / yellow line was flanked by ⅛" white lines, though Jenkinson says the white line was omitted next to the white panels! Some photos seem to show a darker line in the corner between the beading and panel but that might just be dirt!

 

[EDIT: this last paragraph was added after @Edwardian's "like".]

Edited June 9, 2021 by Compound2632

[corneliuslundie]

And of course an ⅛ in. vermilion line translates to . . . 1.6 thou in 4 mm, unless I am mistaken. No problem!

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

And of course an ⅛ in. vermilion line translates to . . . 1.6 thou in 4 mm, unless I am mistaken. No problem!

 

Of course much of the discussion appears academic from the modeller's point of view although it's fascinating from the enthusiast's point of view. Though one does have to consider the visual effect of that line, whether black, vermillion, or white, on the definition of the gold line relative to the adjacent colours. 

 

I have heard of a tiger's whisker being used - Bernard Miller for W.S. Norris. But that was in 7 mm scale, which makes all the difference.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

On 07/06/2021 at 12:21, Edwardian said:

 

Years ago, in an abortive attempt to return to modelling, I built and painted a set of Ratio 4-wheelers. It took me forever to line the beading, though, in the Ignorance of Youth, I did so in chocolate, and there was no yellow edging or distance line.  I dread returning to them!

 

Distance is forgiving .....

 

[Coal Tank]

I am very slowly getting there

[Brassey]

Very good and an almost finished coach too.  Are you leaving the gold line off?  IMHO this is the most difficult line to apply as it's on the beading.  And how did you apply the black?

Edited June 17, 2021 by Brassey

[Coal Tank]

Hi

    I followed the post on Wenlocks (Dave) thread. The Black was put on with a very fine brush, keeping a cocktail stick handy to clean any overspill. I am about to give th gold a try 

John 

    

[Siberian Snooper]

I do the black with a laundry marker. 

 

 

[Coal Tank]

25 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

I do the black with a laundry marker. 

 

 

Hi can you show us

[Siberian Snooper]

3 hours ago, Coal Tank said:

Hi can you show us

 

I will dig out a part built one and take a photo.

 

 

[Coal Tank]

4 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

I will dig out a part built one and take a photo.

 

 

Hi and the pen 

[dpgibbons]

FYI Slaters 7mm GWR 4 wheel coach kits can now be ordered with fully painted and decorated sides in the elaborate pre-1908 livery - see here. The quality is superb and the price premium is a fraction of the cost of a comparable professional paint job.