GWR Dean Era Coach Livery

[K14]

This extract from Russell's Coaches Vol 1 (page 101) on the 'Pendon' method of painting panels might prove useful:—

 

It sounds complicated, but actually it's very simple once you've got your hand in. I've had good results (in 7mm, but I don't see why it shouldn't work in 4mm) using a ruling pen as a preset paint brush - especially on droplights (© Larry G).

 

The reference to "3 coats" on the mouldings refers to stock built from card, which presumably needed sealing.

 

Pete S.

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by K14
Reattachment of image

[Siberian Snooper]

Here's a couple of piccies of a Slaters Clerestory coach in 4mm, it was done around 25 years or so ago and still not finished.

 

 

Sorry that the flash has washed out the centre of the photo.

 

And a cruel close up, you can see that it was brush painted.

 

 

 

The laundry marker I used was from Smiths

 

https://www.whsmith.co.uk/products/whsmith-laundry-marker-fibre-tip-pen-black-ink/5013872077082.html

 

We didn't have the Sharpies back then, but they may work just as well, so long as it has a fine tip.

[Caley Jim]

10 hours ago, K14 said:

....... I've had good results (in 7mm, but I don't see why it shouldn't work in 4mm)..... 

I can vouch for the fact that it works well in 2mm.

 

 

Jim 

[ChrisN]

@Mikkel has a video on his Farthing blog of filling in panels by just that method.

Edited June 18, 2021 by ChrisN

[Mikkel]

Yes, here's the video:

 

 

[Brassey]

On 18/06/2021 at 07:51, Siberian Snooper said:

Here's a couple of piccies of a Slaters Clerestory coach in 4mm, it was done around 25 years or so ago and still not finished.

 

 

Sorry that the flash has washed out the centre of the photo.

 

And a cruel close up, you can see that it was brush painted.

 

 

 

The laundry marker I used was from Smiths

 

https://www.whsmith.co.uk/products/whsmith-laundry-marker-fibre-tip-pen-black-ink/5013872077082.html

 

We didn't have the Sharpies back then, but they may work just as well, so long as it has a fine tip.

 

I have two of these 4mm Slaters kits in the paintshop at the moment.  One in this livery, and the other in Crimson Lake.  I have started the lining on one.  (pics to follow)

 

On the first I followed the same construction as here but the Slaters instructions are to fix the roof first before the floor.  As I have one in the same state as yours, how do (did)  you plan to fit the clerestory roof? 

[Siberian Snooper]

The clerestory, is a push fit into the compartment tops. You can fit the main roof to the body, as the moulding has slots that align with compartment walls, it's wise to check that it fits properly before building the clerestory and that the sides are correctly orientated before constructing the roof, as the sides can inadvertently be fitted upside down.

 

 

[CKPR]

On 18/06/2021 at 01:01, K14 said:

but I don't see why it shouldn't work in 4mm

I've had mixed results in 4mm - I've used this technique successfully to do M&CR (green & white) and FR (blue & white) coaches (Trevor Charlton etched zinc and converted Ratio) but had a complete failure the last two two times I attempted it, both times with coaches built from Trevor Charlton etched zinc parts. I have always used Halfords spray paint as the main body colour and I think the formulation of this had changed from cellulose to acrylic. Similarly, Humbrol were going through a purple patch and some of their Chinese-made paint was dire, especially when thinned with either turpentine or white spirit. The net result was that the white paint splodged into the middle of the panels acted like 'wetted' water and flashed over the entire side of the coach.  After 2-3 attempts, the M&CR coach ended up in the earlier varnished teak finish and the FR one is in the 'to do' box. That said, it's still the best way to paint panels, especially when the mouldings are slighter deeper than scale (Ratio, Slaters, Tri-ang, etc).

Edited June 19, 2021 by CKPR

[corneliuslundie]

I have a Slaters all third in Lake - no lining. I had quite a bit of work to get the compartment tops into the slots for them in the roof moulding. By the time I had got to the point where it could be fitted it was not tight enough to stay and had to be secured with solvent - which in one compartment ran down the window (where is the scream symbol?)

And just for luck when I was drilling the sides to fit the door handles I poked the drill slightly too far and it dislodged one of the passengers who is now lying on the floor.

One learns by one's mistakes, I understand.

Jonathan

[Brassey]

3 hours ago, CKPR said:

I've had mixed results in 4mm - I've used this technique successfully

 

This technique, in Mikkel's video, is handy if you intend to leave the beading brown. 

 

However, it is somewhat  long-winded if you want to be true to the lining as illustrated by the photos in the OP.  The gold lining is actually on the quadrant, not the panel nor the beading.  So if the cream creeps onto the beading,  it doesn't matter as you are going to line over this anyway.  So you might as well paint the whole top side cream.

 

Ian Rathbone in his video demonstrates how to line the quadrant with a ruling pen.   However he does this on a flat unassembled side which must be easier than a completed coach.

 

In MRJ 52, Jol Wilkinson uses a rotring pen for the black on the beading on LNWR coaches.  This should be plum but the line is so thin it is an optical illusion that achieves the desired effect.

 

I have found recently that to achieve a thin gold line the consistency of paint through a ruling pen is crucial.  I originally used Humbrol 69 yellow gloss, as some do, but have found this too thin.  Although you can achieve a thin line, the paint spreads.  I have thus been experimenting with Humbrol 7 gloss which is also less bright too.

 

The Crimson Lake lining is even more unforgiving as there is no black on the beading in which to help straighten up the gold line.

 

Must keep practicing as mine is far from perfect.

[Brassey]

53 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I have a Slaters all third in Lake - no lining. I had quite a bit of work to get the compartment tops into the slots for them in the roof moulding. By the time I had got to the point where it could be fitted it was not tight enough to stay and had to be secured with solvent - which in one compartment ran down the window (where is the scream symbol?)

And just for luck when I was drilling the sides to fit the door handles I poked the drill slightly too far and it dislodged one of the passengers who is now lying on the floor.

One learns by one's mistakes, I understand.

Jonathan

 

My first Slaters all third was from the sides and ends etc. during the period when Mr Coopercraft used to sell these separately at shows.  I did not acquire the partitions so had to scratch build these.  In the absence of instructions and some parts, I glued the sides to the floor.  So I need a removable roof in order to paint the compartments and seating and fit the glazing etc. once I've lined it.  I am hoping that an interference fit will hold it on but if not will have to devise something else.  If I glue it on, then I won't be able to get inside again.

 

For my next one, I've made the floor removable using the etched bracket in the complete kit.  This one is in Lake.

[Siberian Snooper]

With the original partitions the roof is a very snug fit. I bought my kits within 12 months of their introduction.

 

I drilled and painted the sides before I started construction.  I decided it would be a lot easier with the side on the bench and I  also rest my arms or hands on it as well.

 

 

[Caley Jim]

8 hours ago, Brassey said:

So I need a removable roof in order to paint the compartments and seating and fit the glazing etc. once I've lined it.  

Could you hold the roof in place with magnets?  You can get very small powerful ones from https://www.first4magnets.com/ .  (Usual disclaimer)    A piece of steel or soft iron in the roof and magnets at the top of the coach ends or vice-versa.

 

Jim

[Ian Smith]

I haven't used magnets to secure the roofs of coaches, but I have for a couple of brake vans.  I put small pieces of plasticard on the underside of the roofs where the sides/ends meet the roof to stop the roof sliding about, and use either a magnet and bit of steel or a pair of magnets fitted so that one magnet/piece of steel is secured to the underside of the roof, and another magnet is secured to a cross-member within the body.  It seems to work quite well.

 

Back to the title of the thread ... For my GWR coach livery, I omit the fine line within the cream panels, and also the gold lining around the chocolate panel edges.  I rule the black mouldings with a 0.1mm Rotring pen (and Rotring black ink).  I tidy up any overspills with the diluted paint and capillary action method.  An example of my coaches can be seen in the image below :

 

Sorry, its not the clearest of photos.  I probably should add that these coaches are (like Jim Watts' Caledonian coach) in 2mm Finescale, so I can probably get away with my livery omissions somewhat easier than those depicting the carriages in larger scales.

 

Ian

[Ian Rathbone]

The ‘gold’ lining on GW coaches is not gold but yellow ochre, the same colour as LNW coach lining. Precision paints do ‘Ochre Lining’ paint. You can make this by mixing Humbrol Tan (9) with Yellow (69). The bolections, reveals and drop lights were originally mahogany but due to weathering and wear they were eventually painted in a matching colour - I use Indian Red rather than Venetian Red. PP do these as SECR Frame Indian Red and SR Venetian Red. 
 

 

Ian R

 

[Brassey]

11 hours ago, Ian Rathbone said:

The ‘gold’ lining on GW coaches is not gold but yellow ochre, the same colour as LNW coach lining. Precision paints do ‘Ochre Lining’ paint. You can make this by mixing Humbrol Tan (9) with Yellow (69). The bolections, reveals and drop lights were originally mahogany but due to weathering and wear they were eventually painted in a matching colour - I use Indian Red rather than Venetian Red. PP do these as SECR Frame Indian Red and SR Venetian Red. 
 

 

Ian R

 

 

Thanks Ian,

 

What ratio do you mix the tan with the yellow?  I have found the 69 yellow too thin and runny for lining.

 

And, one more question please, what colour have you used for the GWR cream above?

 

Cheers

 

Peter

 

[Ian Rathbone]

I agree that Humbrol 69 is totally useless these days, in fact I opened a new can of 9 this morning and that was oily and too thin. Before the paint formula changed it was always about 50:50. I put some of each paint on a palette and let the oils evaporate off for a bit then mix and put in the pen with a cocktail stick.

 

I bought some Railmatch yellow because of Humbrol problems but found that was as bad. I think it’s the safety elves restricting the types of pigment that can be used in ‘hobby paints’. I will stick with Precision in future.

 

Ian R

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, Ian Rathbone said:

I agree that Humbrol 69 is totally useless these days, in fact I opened a new can of 9 this morning and that was oily and too thin. Before the paint formula changed it was always about 50:50. I put some of each paint on a palette and let the oils evaporate off for a bit then mix and put in the pen with a cocktail stick.

 

I bought some Railmatch yellow because of Humbrol problems but found that was as bad. I think it’s the safety elves restricting the types of pigment that can be used in ‘hobby paints’. I will stick with Precision in future.

 

Ian R

If that were true (about Elf and Safety), the Precision wouldn't be able to produce paints, nor would any other providers of enamel paints.

It's always down to (a) someone overreacting; (b) some person in "marketing" concerned about negative news when someone misuses it; (c) someone overreacting; and (d) someone overreacting.

Mostly, the regulations are in place to ensure the safest possible use, but there will always be idiots, always be unfortunate combinations of circumstances, and always someone overreacting and pointing out the safest way to deal with noxious chemicals is to not use them, even if it makes the product ineffective.

 

Did I mention people overreacting?

Sometimes they panic, too.

[Compound2632]

On 19/06/2021 at 13:30, Brassey said:

In MRJ 52, Jol Wilkinson uses a rotring pen for the black on the beading on LNWR coaches.  This should be plum but the line is so thin it is an optical illusion that achieves the desired effect.

 

I did this, using a mixture of Rotring red and blue inks to approximate the purple lake.

 

On 19/06/2021 at 13:30, Brassey said:

I have found recently that to achieve a thin gold line the consistency of paint through a ruling pen is crucial.  I originally used Humbrol 69 yellow gloss, as some do, but have found this too thin.  Although you can achieve a thin line, the paint spreads.  I have thus been experimenting with Humbrol 7 gloss which is also less bright too.

 

23 hours ago, Ian Rathbone said:

The ‘gold’ lining on GW coaches is not gold but yellow ochre, the same colour as LNW coach lining. Precision paints do ‘Ochre Lining’ paint. You can make this by mixing Humbrol Tan (9) with Yellow (69). 

 

Professionals will differ. Larry Goddard recommended a half-and-half mix of Humbrols 7 and 69. 

 

At least in the nineteenth century and well into the Edwardian era, the gold lining was gold leaf - on the LNWR and I think on the GWR; certainly on the Midland. There was a gradual move to substitution of the gold leaf by paint, but this really was a late pre-Grouping thing. 

[webbcompound]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

At least in the nineteenth century and well into the Edwardian era, the gold lining was gold leaf - on the LNWR and I think on the GWR; certainly on the Midland. There was a gradual move to substitution of the gold leaf by paint, but this really was a late pre-Grouping thing. 

There is of course the scaling effect to consider. Very few modellers gloss varnish their coaches for the same reason. A non-gloss gold metallic effectively means a tan colour is a good equivalent to a semi-matt gold. Where there is a large area of polished metal (for example a dome) this wouldn't work as you would need to paint in reflections and then this would only work for one viewing direction, but for something as fine as lining this isn't an issue.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, webbcompound said:

There is of course the scaling effect to consider. 

 

To be clear, I'm not advocating the use of gold leaf for lining in the smaller scales*; I'm all with the discussion on how to represent it. What I will call out is the suggestion that gold leaf was not widely used. @Ian Rathbone's comment about yellow ochre is no doubt correct for most GWR and LNWR carriages by 1923 - the Midland had moved over to a colour simply described as "yellow" in Midland Style for all but dining carriages and similar high-class vehicles; the LMS followed suit (probably even for dining carriages.) The Midland had gone over from gold leaf to yellow for horse boxes, parcels vans, etc. in 1892 and appears to have used yellow for the lining-out of solebars and headstocks from an early date. Presumably the intention was that from normal viewing distance the difference would not be noticed. Passengers only saw carriage sides close up.

 

*Although now I think about it, would a rub-down method with a sharp pencil on a sheet of gold leaf work?

[Re6/6]

Here's something from quite the other end of the spectrum!

 

[Ian Rathbone]

On 03/07/2021 at 19:33, Ian Rathbone said:

I agree that Humbrol 69 is totally useless these days, in fact I opened a new can of 9 this morning and that was oily and too thin. Before the paint formula changed it was always about 50:50. I put some of each paint on a palette and let the oils evaporate off for a bit then mix and put in the pen with a cocktail stick.

 

I bought some Railmatch yellow because of Humbrol problems but found that was as bad. I think it’s the safety elves restricting the types of pigment that can be used in ‘hobby paints’. I will stick with Precision in future.

 

Ian R

An update on Humbrol paint. I recently opened new cans of 9 and 69 and they were perfect, both were good and dense. 
 

Following the discussion on lining colours, I always dull down the colour, so with yellow I add tan, for white I use a light grey, never vermilion but Humbrol 19, for lining orange I use a can of 9 with a mustard spoon of 19 added. It is difficult to get lining down to a scale width, but dull it down and it looks more to scale.  For gold I use Precision Paints ‘Brass’ which goes through a pen beautifully provided it is well stirred.

 

Ian R