Tenders and Turntables

[Thunderforge]

Here’s a question I’ve been wondering about; I’ve heard about a few small turntables which are too short to turn a loco connected to it’s tender. So you turn each one separately and the loco runs around it’s tender on a return loop, now facing the right way. BUT... a tender loco running anywhere without it’s tender would be a safety nightmare wouldn’t it?!

 

Would the loco just have to run tender-first until it reached a station with a ‘proper’ turntable? 

 

How far is a loco allowed to travel without a tender and at what speed?

[JimC]

Would they have used a shed pilot to move both?

[Compound2632]

There's been a good turntable discussion going here:

in the course of which mention was made of a Board of Trade regulation that forbade tender-first running over a distance of more than 15 miles.

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

17 minutes ago, Thunderforge said:

How far is a loco allowed to travel without a tender and at what speed?

Technically possible but a nightmare in practise ...... you've got to disconnect the drawbar, water supply, brake and steam heat pipes ( where fitted ) - then reconnect everything before the boiler water level needs topping up .......... Don't try this at home !

[Thunderforge]

I didn’t even think of that, no water supply for the injectors!!

[Wheatley]

It's a job for a fitter, not a loco crew, so only done on shed and only where necessary. If loco and tender had been separated anyway for maintenance then fair enough, otherwise it would be sent somewhere else to turn. Triangular junctions were used as well as larger turntables. 

 

In normal traffic you ran tender first until the loco could be turned. 

[LMS2968]

It was done, but probably not often, in the early days of railways when wagon turntable might be used. I have seen a later photo of, I think it was, a Caledonian Rly 4-6-0 being turned in this way, but probably very rare by that 6date.

Edited June 6, 2021 by LMS2968

[Right Away]

A few “Brits” managed to part with their tenders without the help of fitters or crew!

[Gordon A]

Some turntables were provided with a temporary short extension that would accommodate a tender axle.

I would have thought the local shed foreman would be responsible of providing suitable engines which take into account any restrictions on the line they would be diagrammed to work. 

 

Gordon A

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

It was done, but probably not often, in the early days of railways when wagon turntable might be used. I have seen a later photo of, I think it was, a Caledonian Rly 4-6-0 being turned in this way, but probably very rare by that 6date.

Agreed, back in the earliest days, it was thought of as a horse and carriage, where they were considered as separate vehicles.

I guess it didn't take long at all to come to the conclusion, that it was more trouble than it was worth!

[The Stationmaster]

Simple answer was to use extend sion pieces in order to accommodate the tender.  Obviously no use on a very short turntable but if it was only a foot or so then easily done. with care.  It used to be regular practice at Whitchurch (Salop) as 'Manors' working in off the Cambrian were too long for the turntable so extension pieces were used under the rear wheelset of the tender.

[adb968008]

In Germany 18.201 is fitted with an easy to detach 2nd tender.

 

It often turns itself, then the tender separately, usually with assistance of a depot shunter for the turntable... the annual steam trips to Wolsztyn often did that, the 2nd tender was left at Wolsztyn, whilst 18.201 went upto Leszno where there is a larger turntable available, reconnecting both upon its return.

 

As an aside, I recalled reading 34067 being fitted with some form of easy to detach mechanism for the tender back in 2001/2, to facilitate turning at Swanages turntable.. something that in practice didn't seem to happen in reality.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by adb968008

[Wickham Green too]

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

...As an aside, I recalled reading 34067 being fitted with some form of easy to detach mechanism for the tender back in 2001/2, to facilitate turning at Swanages turntable.. something that in practice didn't seem to happen in reality.

Not a lot of point if there's no 'table at Norden !

[adb968008]

12 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Not a lot of point if there's no 'table at Norden !

Maybe someone here can expand on it, but I do recall reading the idea was 34067 could run down to swanage, uncouple the tender whilst in steam, turn loco and tender on Swanages small turntable, reconnect, ftr, then run the return leg same day.

 

I dont know if it ever happened, but definitely read that it was configured in some manner with easier to connect / disconnect mods to allow it.

 

it was probably in Steam Railway where I read it.

 

I do agree that the dorset coast needs a big turntable, whether its weymouth or Swanage, which ever gets it will see a big uptick in railtour business... London is relatively starved of steam since those often 7 days a week summer steam operations of the mainline steam peak years c2008-2013...

ive noticed Portsmouth is getting a but more attention in 2021 though, and maybe that shorter day out, and using Horsham via Sutton might offer an easier route/paths from the capital in the future, though i’ll stop before the topic police come for me.

Edited June 6, 2021 by adb968008

[TomJ]

Many of the visiting locos from RH&DR to Ravenglass and Eskdale are too long for the turntables at either end. In those cases the tenders are detached and simply pushed onto the turntable after the loco. Always a good show for those watching 

Obviously a lot easier in 15inch gauge!

[Harry Welch]

I seem to recall seeing an archive (B&R?) DVD of a loco, possibly a Jubilee, moving in a shed yard without a tender. Cant recall if the circumstances for such a movement were mentioned but certainly a strange sight. The shed could have been Stockport Edgeley. Has anyone else seen this?

[duncan]

As LMS2968 mentions above, the first big CR 460s (early 20thC) were sometimes split at Glasgow until the turntable was renewed.  I think more often run round the Cathcart Circle to turn them, possibly 15 mins ?

 

edit  light engine

Edited June 9, 2021 by duncan

[Steamport Southport]

On 07/06/2021 at 22:22, Harry Welch said:

I seem to recall seeing an archive (B&R?) DVD of a loco, possibly a Jubilee, moving in a shed yard without a tender. Cant recall if the circumstances for such a movement were mentioned but certainly a strange sight. The shed could have been Stockport Edgeley. Has anyone else seen this?

 

I've not seen the footage. But I'm thinking possibly a tender swap?

 

 

Jason

[pH]

2 hours ago, duncan said:

As LMS2968 mentions above, the first big CR 460s (early 20thC) were sometimes split at Glasgow until the turntable was renewed.  I think more often run round the Cathcart Circle to turn them, possibly 15 mins ?

Triangles were also used for turning engines from Polmadie shed - Bridge Street/Gushetfaulds/Shields for bigger engines and the triangle at Rutherglen station for smaller engines. (LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 5). (There’s also a Bridge Street/Muirhouse Junctions/Shields triangle.)

 

I don’t think a tender-first 4-6-0 could work a train round the Circle in 15 minutes (or a crew would want to try!). Current times are 27-28 minutes.